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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: shadowwind2112 on Saturday 09 April 22 12:41 BST (UK)
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Hello there, a bit of a tricky one, but upon investigating the following,
"Hilda Mary Severn
B:11 Aug 1904 Codnor Park, Derbyshire, England.
D:16 Mar 1984 39 Middleton Avenue, Codnor, Derbyshire, England."
It has taken me to a
"John Severn
B:10 Mar 1750 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England
D:Abt. 1813 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England"
Now what is interesting is that in another tree I have found the following, which is,
"Hannah Severn
B:Abt. 1795 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England
D:1883 Nuthall, Nottinghamshire, England"
And from Hannah Severn, born Abt. 1795 Greasley, is linked to "Birkin" However, how do I link the "John Severn" above to Hannah Severn, born in 1795 in Greasley?
Also the following trees have the Severn and Birkin links, but I want to find which correction is the right one, the following trees are
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/163334478/family/familyview?cfpid=182337283292&fpid=182331199944&usePUBJs=true
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/103299596/family/familyview?cfpid=240131498938
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/192142/family/familyview?cfpid=182311702702
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Never copy Trees.
They can be a useful guide
You must do your own research.
How far back from Hilda 1904 have you got conclusively?
Birth/Marriage Certs etc back to c 1838?
Trish :)
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I followed Hildas line back on Census to William Severn/Elizabeth Parkin.
Is this what you have?
1820 Marriage is on FreeREG Elizabeth a Minor and Marriage with consent of Parents.
Witnesses, Ann Severn/Isaac Parkin/Mary Parkin/Thomas Thorpe
William/Elizabeth had a mass bapt for their children 30 June 1837 Heanor
William/Isaac/Hannah/George/James/Joseph
(exact birth dates of children are there also eg William 27 Apr 1828)
On Census William is born c 1797 Codnor (1871 with Son Edwin)
Someone has him born Greasley 1861 Census but that William appears to be unm to me from Census.
1861 we have him as William Severn 65 born Codnor, Widr, FWK
So if I have this right as of 1797ish no connection to Greasley, Notts
Trish :)
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Work back from what you know is correct
Hilda Mary Severn - parents Andrew & Mary nee Burgoyne. The 1984 death shows her as Hilda Mary Harper - is that correct?
The tree on Ancestry has her marrying John Thomas Harper in Doncaster in 1931 as Hilda Mary Severn. Hilda Burgoyne married John Thomas Harper & the children shown in the tree have mmn Burgoyne - not Severn
Between 1931-1945 there is only 1 Harper births with a mmn of Severn & that can be traced back to a marriage in Warwickshire
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A Hilda Mary Severn b 1898 married John William Sykes in 1921
What do you yourself know for certain about Hilda Mary Severn - not what you have found in peoples trees? Are you directly descended from either her or one of her siblings?
A tree on Ancestry has this as the marriage but has her birthyear as 1904 & death in 1984
However - the same tree shows her probate entry as Hilda Severn!!
GRO death index
Hilda Severn aged 79 b 8 May 1904
March 1984 Belper 6 132
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A Hilda Mary Severn b 1898 married John William Sykes in 1921
What do you yourself know for certain about Hilda Mary Severn - not what you have found in peoples trees? Are you directly descended from either her or one of her siblings?
A tree on Ancestry has this as the marriage but has her birthyear as 1904 & death in 1984
However - the same tree shows her probate entry as Hilda Severn!!
GRO death index
Hilda Severn aged 79 b 8 May 1904
March 1984 Belper 6 132
Eeerrrm, I have not found things in "other peoples trees" they are things that I have found myself.
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Your opening post suggests otherwise hence Trish's reply above plus my own comments
Now what is interesting is that in another tree I have found the following, which is
Also the following trees have the Severn and Birkin links, but I want to find which correction is the right one, the following trees are
In your post you say you are investigating the following
"Hilda Mary Severn
B:11 Aug 1904 Codnor Park, Derbyshire, England.
D:16 Mar 1984 39 Middleton Avenue, Codnor, Derbyshire, England."
Both her death & probate entries show her just as Hilda and you will see from my reply above she was born 8.5.1904 not 11.8.1904. Her probate entry confirms she died 16.3.1984 Codnor
There is a death reg for Hilda Mary Harper b 11.8.1904 died 1984 but in Doncaster
Name: Hilda Mary Harper
Death Age: 79
Birth Date: 11 Aug 1904
Registration Date: Apr 1984
Registration District: Doncaster
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire, Yorkshire
Volume: 3
Page: 402
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The Hilda Severn who died 16.3.1984 & was born 8.5.1904 was born as Hilda Snape & married Thomas Severn in 1930
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May have got the original post a bit tounge twisted to some extent. But is there anything that links the following,
1/. "Andrew Severn
B:18 Nov 1878 Codnor, Derbyshire, England.
D:Jun 1953 Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England."
2/. "William Severn (bap)
B:06 Jan 1797 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England
D:1879 Derbyshire, England"
3/. "Hannah Severn
B:Abt. 1795 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England
D:1883 Nuthall, Nottinghamshire, England"
And if so can anyone find a link to "Birkin" in Greasley Nottinghamshire?
So far, I have found the following trees, which contain some references to the 3 names above.
1. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/163334478/family/familyview?cfpid=182337283297
2. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/109319428/family/familyview?cfpid=202276504608
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Not sure what you are looking for and I think I am just giving the same information here as the trees
1841 857/14/15
Phoebe Gascoin 9 yrs with parents William and Hannah and several siblings living in Greasley.
However, the tree I am looking at shows Hannah Severn Gascoigne in 1861 with William.
In 1851 2125/220/52
Shows William b Tetbury, Staffs as a widower.
There is a death in 1849 for Hannah Gascoyne, 52 yrs and possible marriages later for William and another Hannah.
Is that what you have found?
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Then you have this marriage in 1854 Basford
Phoebe Gascoyne and Samuel Birkin
In 1861 2434/29/27
Samuel is shown as a widower
Also in 1861 there is a William and Phoebe Birkin. She is 46 yrs old.
In 1864 there is a death for Phoebe aged 48 yrs.
The tree I see is showing this death for Phoebe Gascoyne Birkin.
Just found a death for Phoebe Pirkin 25 yrs 1858 Basford.
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Do these findings agree with your personal searches?
Those names are therefore linked but the trees are perhaps wrong.
I have not gone back further as not sure where you want to take it.
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It would be best if you gave us the details of the actual Severn line you are descended from or are researching without any references to other trees or other surnames etc
Are you descended from Andrew Severn - father of Hilda Mary?
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Rereading this I realise that you are searching in Codnor, Derbyshire not Greasley, Nottinghamshire.
As others have advised, it’s best to work back from the one who is of interest and if you have done this, you could post here for someone to check if you are unsure. We are always happy to do that. :)
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See my replies 6 & 7. The death date you gave for Hilda Mary Severn in your opening post relates to a married woman born as Hilda Snape with a different birthdate who died in Codnor. She did not have a middle name.
The birthdate you gave appears to relate to a Hilda Mary Harper who did not die in Codnor - death registered in Doncaster
You can understand our confusion hence my request above - reply 12
We just want to make sure that you are following the correct line & that we are providing the right info
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It would be best if you gave us the details of the actual Severn line you are descended from or are researching without any references to other trees or other surnames etc
Are you descended from Andrew Severn - father of Hilda Mary?
I am related to the following,
1/. Mary Burgoyne
B:1879 Ripley Derbyshire England
D:Mar 1930 Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England
Who was married to,
2/. Andrew Severn
B:18 Nov 1878 Codnor, Derbyshire, England.
D:Jun 1953 Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England.
From the following tree (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/41549759/family/familyview?cfpid=19642380888&fpid=19642380931&usePUBJs=true).
Yet this tree (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/163334478/family/familyview?cfpid=182331199941)
Mentions that the "Severn" which is in my tree can be traced back to Greasley and also has links to the Birkin, but is this 100% correct?
Also why are people so nasty? I have not been doing this long and I am new to researching family history.
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Nobody on RC has been nasty. We are trying to help you but none of the info you gave in your opening post tied in with facts found online. As I commented earlier - we want to make sure we are following the right line.
It is a well documented fact that a very high proportion of trees are badly researched & can cause a great deal of confusion. This is why we strongly recommend you do your own research. Whilst reference to a tree can be useful - you still need to check whether that info is correct.
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I certainly echo that no one is being nasty. As you can see, I hope, we are trying to help. You can see in my posts where some published trees have the wrong information and this can then lead to all sorts of mix ups. :)
If you have searched your tree and verified it, then ignore the others. If you ever have time to search, you will find several threads on here from exasperated people who have found such wrong information and things being ‘stolen’ from their trees and used incorrectly.
Often when these errors are pointed out the parties concerned can be dismissive/angry/apathetic so in the end it’s best to just stick to your own.
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Just as a quick example. Yesterday I sent messages to 2 different tree owners both with the same person in their tree. Both had the right birthyear but one had him dying in 1871 the other in 1880. He was alive & living with his parents in 1891 ??? ???
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Looking at the two trees you have posted - yours and a.n.other, is it William Severn c 1797 that is causing the concern?
1851 2125/441/18
William 55 yrs b Codnor with wife Elizabeth and youngest son Edwin.
1851 2125 /230/8
William 54 yrs b Greasley with wife Ellen and several children.
Both Codnor and Greasley are in the sub registration Greasley and registration district Basford.
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I don’t see William b Greasley after 1861 and there is a death in 1863 for William 66yrs which might be him.
William b Codnor is living with son Edwin in 1871.
I think the other tree has the William married to Elizabeth so where have they gone wrong?
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Just trying to work out those trees, if there was a Birkin connection, it wouldn’t be in your line.
See my previous posts.
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A quick one, but I am looking for a link between the following,
1/. "Andrew Severn
B:18 Nov 1878 Codnor, Derbyshire, England.
D:Jun 1953 Mansfield, Nottinghamshire, England."
2/. "Edwin William Severn
B:April 1839 Codnor, Derbyshire, England.
D:1925 Codnor, Derbyshire, England."
3/. "William Severn
B:1796 Codnor, Derbyshire, England
D:08 Jan 1879 Codnor, Derbyshire, England"
4/. "John Severn
B:10 Mar 1750 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England
D:Abt. 1813 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England"
which will lead to eventually the following
1/. "Elizabeth Severns
B:1779 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England
D:1844 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England"
And any "Birkin" links that can be linked to the first "Severn" family members above
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See also similar post here - same names
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=860994.0
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Andrew b 1878 is the son of Edwin b 1839
Edwin b 1839 is the son of William b 1796
On your previous thread, I have tried to explain about the Birkin link and also the Codnor/Greasley puzzle.
Did that help you?
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From your other thread - here is my post about the two Williams - one born Codnor and one born Greasley
Looking at the two trees you have posted - yours and a.n.other, is it William Severn c 1797 that is causing the concern?
1851 2125/441/18
William 55 yrs b Codnor with wife Elizabeth and youngest son Edwin.
1851 2125 /230/8
William 54 yrs b Greasley with wife Ellen and several children.
Both Codnor and Greasley are in the sub registration Greasley and registration district Basford.
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Hi All,
I have come to this a bit late and see you have all put a lots of work into this already. I have found it all confusing - so if I have got the wrong end of the stick, I apologise in advance.... ::)
I am just working from this....
which will lead to eventually the following
1/. "Elizabeth Severns
B:1779 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England
D:1844 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England"
And any "Birkin" links that can be linked to the first "Severn" family members above
BAPTISM - GREASLEY St Mary
10th Dec 1779 - Elizabeth, dau of William & Elizabeth SEVERN
MARRIAGE - EASTWOOD St Mary
6th Aug 1799 - Thomas BIRKIN & Elizabeth SEVERN
BURIAL - GREASLEY St Mary
8th Jan 1844 - Elizabeth BIRKIN, aged 65 yrs - abode Kimberley
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That’s interesting Dizzifish - another Birkin connection.
It is confusing, yes. :)
We tried in the other thread to look at the trees that shadowwind2112 was looking at and sift out the various family lines.
Two Williams were found - Codnor and Greasley. Hopefully, shadowwind2112 will have seen the findings and let us know if it was helpful.
The trees seem to have mixed up various folk.
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Yes I posted about the 2 Williams on the 9th of April;
I followed Hildas line back on Census to William Severn/Elizabeth Parkin.
Is this what you have?
1820 Marriage is on FreeREG Elizabeth a Minor and Marriage with consent of Parents.
Witnesses, Ann Severn/Isaac Parkin/Mary Parkin/Thomas Thorpe
William/Elizabeth had a mass bapt for their children 30 June 1837 Heanor
William/Isaac/Hannah/George/James/Joseph
(exact birth dates of children are there also eg William 27 Apr 1828)
On Census William is born c 1797 Codnor (1871 with Son Edwin)
Someone has him born Greasley 1861 Census but THAT William appears to be unm to me from Census.
1861 we have him as William Severn 65 born Codnor, Widr, FWK
So if I have this right as of 1797ish no connection to Greasley, Notts
Trish :)
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Yes I posted about the 2 Williams on the 9th of April;
I followed Hildas line back on Census to William Severn/Elizabeth Parkin.
Is this what you have?
1820 Marriage is on FreeREG Elizabeth a Minor and Marriage with consent of Parents.
Witnesses, Ann Severn/Isaac Parkin/Mary Parkin/Thomas Thorpe
William/Elizabeth had a mass bapt for their children 30 June 1837 Heanor
William/Isaac/Hannah/George/James/Joseph
(exact birth dates of children are there also eg William 27 Apr 1828)
On Census William is born c 1797 Codnor (1871 with Son Edwin)
Someone has him born Greasley 1861 Census but THAT William appears to be unm to me from Census.
1861 we have him as William Severn 65 born Codnor, Widr, FWK
So if I have this right as of 1797ish no connection to Greasley, Notts
Trish :)
Are you sure about that, because this tree, says the opposite,
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/163334478/family/familyview?cfpid=182331196661
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To add to Trish’s post.
Somewhere I posted this and reposted it somewhere too :)
The tree has the right William but has him born Greasley for the tree purpose.
This is perhaps based on an 1861 entry for William b Greasley but that is the wrong census.
From your other thread - here is my post about the two Williams - one born Codnor and one born Greasley
Looking at the two trees you have posted - yours and a.n.other, is it William Severn c 1797 that is causing the concern?
1851 2125/441/18
William 55 yrs b Codnor with wife Elizabeth and youngest son Edwin.
1851 2125 /230/8
William 54 yrs b Greasley with wife Ellen and several children.
Both Codnor and Greasley are in the sub registration Greasley and registration district Basford.
So in 1851, there are the two Williams and families.
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What have you found for 1861?
These are the two Williams
1861 2431 /53/2
Codnor, Derbys
William Severn widower 65 yrs Wook FWK b Codnor
1861 2434 /82/6
Greasley, Notts
William Severn unmarried 64 yrs Cotton GpfWK b Greasley
The tree you are relying on has used the 1861 census for William b Greasley but the earlier censuses and 1871 Willam b Codnor.
I think there may be a difficulty in tracing the correct baptisms.
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Yes from what I can see there are 2.
Sorry signing out so will look at this again when I can.
It was a few days ago so was just going from my memory of what I found and dont have time to go back and look at Census etc now.
Trish :)
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You just posted as I did heywood, thanks for that :)
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I didn’t want to repeat your work but is presented slightly differently but with same conclusions :)
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Are you sure about that, because this tree, says the opposite
As advised on your previous thread - the trees you are looking at contain many inaccuracies. Those inaccuracies are well documented by various RC members in that thread.
Have you read those replies and researched the details given?
If you are still uncertain - perhaps you need to contact the actual tree owners and discuss the content of their trees with them in the light of the replies you have received as we just appear to be going over the same ground covered in your earlier thread
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Are you sure about that, because this tree, says the opposite
As advised on your previous thread - the trees you are looking at contain many inaccuracies. Those inaccuracies are well documented by various RC members in that thread.
Have you read those replies and researched the details given?
If you are still uncertain - perhaps you need to contact the actual tree owners and discuss the content of their trees with them in the light of the replies you have received as we just appear to be going over the same ground covered in your earlier thread
Eeerrrrmmmm that tree is actually correct as I have heard from the owner. Again being rude is what you are.
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If the tree is correct, then there is no problem. Just go with it.
If you look at those censuses that we have given details of, you can see there are two men with the same name and approximate age but with different places of birth.
Codnor and Greasley are within the same registration district but those censuses show two different men.
William of Greasley is unmarried.
William of Codnor has a family which, I think, is your interest.
Without going back over it all again, I think the tree may well be correct in most censuses but not in 1861.
The baptism details could well be wrong too because your William does not give Greasley as his place of birth.
If your tree owner has used that census plus the only available baptism record, Greasley, which seems to be online, then that might be the only error. That is putting Greasley as the place of birth rather than Codnor.
However, your own research will have highlighted this, I assume.
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I think you are mistaking being factual for being rude.
You provided info on your other thread that has been proved conclusively to be incorrect but have made no comment other than to continue to post the links to Ancestry trees.
See the info you posted about Hilda Mary Severn - wrong person - wrong dates.
If you are so convinced the info in the trees is accurate - what point is there in RC members
wasting any more time posting info for you that proves it’s incorrect?
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A quick one, but I am looking for a link between the following,
which will lead to eventually the following
1/. "Elizabeth Severns
B:1779 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England
D:1844 Greasley, Nottinghamshire, England"
And any "Birkin" links that can be linked to the first "Severn" family members above
I don’t see Elizabeth b 1779, Greasley in the tree you have posted.
However there is a death in 1844 - Elizabeth Birkin 65 yrs in Basford district.
I can only see this one in 1841
Elizabeth Birkin 65 yrs living in Aston upon Trent, Derbyshire (not born in county)
? Birkin 65 yrs Ag Lab born in county
Is this who you mean?
I thought you were asking for clarification of the information posted in the trees.
We have pointed out where there seems to be some discrepancies and given alternative information from the censuses. You posted again though with a similar request.
In response to the help and advice, you have written:
“Are you sure about that, because this tree, says the opposite,”
“ Eeerrrrmmmm that tree is actually correct as I have heard from the owner. Again being rude is what you are.”
I do not think anyone on Rootschat is being rude to you. I would hope that you can see the effort made to help you sort this out.
You wrote initially that you have found the information yourself and not used others’ trees. That is how it should be. Sometimes, others’ research is correct but sometimes it isn’t.
It is difficult to see what you want here. If you prefer the information in that tree, that is your choice. However, as I have mentioned there is at least one error re birthplace but you must decide.
I apologise to others for the length of this post.
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I don't see Elizabeth b 1779, Greasley in the tree you have posted.
However there is a death in 1844 - Elizabeth Birkin 65 yrs in Basford district.
That is the Elizabeth Birkin I mentioned in reply 26
This is Thomas & Elizabeth Birkin on the 1841 census
1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Toll Bar, Kimberley in the parish of Greasley,
Piece 857 / Folio 29 / Page 5
Thomas BIRKIN, aged 63 - Grocer - born in county
Elizabeth BIRKIN, aged 62 - born in county
Next door is their son Thomas Birkin (Lace Maker) and his wife Susannah nee' Walker - married in Greasley 1836
Elizabeth's burial is given in reply 26
Burial at Greasley - abode Kimberley
14th Nov 1845, Thomas BIRKIN aged 67
Thomas Birkin also left a Will - granted 1846
The couple also have other children - even if these aren't people that you are interested in, it is always useful to cross reference information if only to rule them in or out.
As I haven't had any feedback either way I will leave the thread, at least for now.
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Sorry Dizzifish. I had seen your post but meant that I could not find her in the tree.
Somewhere I also posted a Birkin (Pirkin) connection - think it was Phoebe Gascoigne which was mentioned by shadowwind2112 or it was a similar name and I think there was an error in that tree too.
It may be lost now in all the posts but I hope it was seen and read at the time.