RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: tonymc06 on Saturday 09 April 22 10:04 BST (UK)
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Hello
I have been raised in a very broken family and for years I have been trying to price together memories.
I have a vivid memory as a bit of visiting relatives who were fairground folk.
I have researched and came up with the following names in my ancestry.
Pratley
Chapman
Cornelius
I’m sure there are others, but I know these 3 immediately.
Is there a possibility bearing in mind my recollections?
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Hello
Sorry, some typos in previous message
I have been raised in a very broken family and for years I have been trying to piece together memories.
I have a vivid memory as a kid of visiting my dads relatives who were fairground folk.
I have researched and came up with the following names in my ancestry.
Pratley
Chapman
Cornelius
The name Marshall also features a lot.
I’m sure there are others, but I know these 4 immediately.
Is there a possibility bearing in mind my recollections?
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I think you would need to work backwards from your birth certificate information then your parents etc to where you can look at census records and, hopefully, find the ancestors you seek from that.
From what you say it would only be a generation or two back if they were your fathers relatives he was visiting.
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Welcome to rootschat Tony. ;)
How far back do you know the names of your family?
For example do you know the names and birth dates of both of your parents (including your mother’s maiden name)?
Do you know the names of any of your grandparents? Great grandparents?
You don’t mention any dates or whether any of these people are still living. One of the only rules here on rootschat is that we aren’t allowed to mention the full names of anyone who is still (or likely to be) living. People are sometimes willing to help you via the Personal Messaging system - some people use initials, eg “LP was born in 1949”. :)
Millipede mentioned the census. The most recent census is the 1921 and that has only recently been released and currently you have to pay to view each family record. The one prior to that is the 1911 census, so if you can get back that far with known family, that should make the search a little easier. Census records can be helpful as you see whole family groups, parents, children, and sometimes extended family.
There are quite recent birth, death and marriage record indexes (that is, just the basic names and a date) also on the subscription sites.
A good place for you to start might be this free site:
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Depending on dates, can you find your parent’s or grandparent’s births or marriages on there? If you are unsure of years you can leave it blank, however this might lead to thousands of results, so if you put in a rough year estimate this might help you.
There are plenty more hints and tips and places for you to search but I don’t want to overwhelm you too much.
If you have specific names of anyone still living that you need help with, you can send me a PM by clicking on my name on the left. I can’t guarantee that I will be able to help you, but I might find something to get you started.
There are a lot of people on rootschat who have traveller ancestry who I’m sure will be able to give you good advice.
You can go ahead and post the names of anyone who is deceased here. Best to get help from as many people as possible. :)
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Sorry, I meant to add …. If you need to change anything you have written, click on the “modify” button in the top right - to the right of the title of your thread. You have 24 or 48 hours (I forget which) to make any alterations. :)
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Hello
My mothers maiden name was Chapman - born in 1949 in Mitcham Surrey.
Here father was always known as ‘Charlie’ and doesn’t seem to exist anywhere on records.
I have since discovered his first name or middle name may have been Cornelius. But I still can’t find him anywhere.
He was known as a boxer and bare knuckle fighter in his younger days.
He and his brother were known fighters in their younger days around the Mitchum area, and my mother was born there. This would have been pre-ww2 and up to the 50’s maybe?
I only remember him as an older man who had settled in Streatham with his pigeons and his ever-present trilby. He used to buy and sell metal amongst other things.
Finding black and white info on him has proved to be almost impossible. He didn’t even seem to appear on my mothers birth registration.
My father was born in Oxfordshire in 1955 and his surname was Pratley - deceased now.
He used to visit his fairground family in the 1970’s.
He mentioned a few times that he came from ‘travelling fairground folk.’ And my memories certainly confirm this.
Again, a struggle to determine who they may have been.
It’s a shame that I took so much for granted as child.
I may need to try and find out his mothers maiden name.
Not sure what to do next. I have so many dead ends in my tree.
Many thanks for your help and advice so far.
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He and his brother were known fighters in their younger days around the Mitchum area, and my mother was born there.
There might be mention in local newspapers :-\
Were your parents married? If so you can obtain a copy of their marriage certificate which should name their fathers/occupations. Witness names can also be useful.
Your mothers birth certificate will name her parents and her fathers occupation.
Start with your own information and work backwards.
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There is this birth in Croydon area which covers Mitcham
September quarter 1920 Cornelius F Chapman mothers name Powell
Found on the Free BMD index
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Same index for a marriage between Chapman and Powell
March quarter 1911 Croydon area
Cornelius F Chapman to Calina/Catina Powell **
** also a Mary Powell marriage listed so either Powell lady could have been the right bride.
Other groom Henry Aspland
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That family are shown in 1939 register in Mitcham.
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What was your father's first name? There are several registered in 1955 Oxfordshire.
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Another question - sorry. You say:
“ Finding black and white info on him has proved to be almost impossible. He didn’t even seem to appear on my mothers birth registration. ”
Do you have your mother’s birth registration?
Do you remember her mother’s first name being mentioned?
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Cornelius F Chapman to Calina/Catina Powell
Helpfully that marriage is online. Feb 19th 1911 Mitcham.
Cornelius Fenner Chapman 23 labourer father James Chapman stoker
Calina Powell 20 father Henry Powell hawker
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Looking at 1939, we can’t mention details there is a female near the Chapman family whose names has been amended through marriage.
There is. Marriage - Free BMD
1940 Surrey Mid E
Lily H Gorey and ? Chapman (no Chapman shown).
Also show though
Cornelius F Chapman and spouse Corey but no corresponding name.
I can only see one birth which is 1944 and is one of the family names.
I hope this makes sense.
Perhaps Cornelius and Lily separated.
** added - according to electoral registers Cornelius and Lily are living together.
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Cornelius F Chapman to Calina/Catina Powell
Helpfully that marriage is online. Feb 19th 1911 Mitcham.
Cornelius Fenner Chapman 23 labourer father James Chapman stoker
Calina Powell 20 father Henry Powell hawker
This Chapman family with father James, and wife Keziah and children including a 17 year old Cornelius are on the 1901 census. Age doesn’t quite tally.
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Cornelius F Chapman b 1920, died 1994 Wandsworth.
Wandsworth covers Stretham so fits with OP’s recollections of grandfather.
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If you look on Free BMD index there is a marriage with all 3 names you mention.
Chapman
Pratley
Marshall
Fairly recent though so may still be living (1973)
Wallingford district
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Lily Hannah Chapman birthdate 31st August 1919 (fits with 1939)
Death 1977, Merton.
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Millipede,
That was my parents marriage that you found.
My father died 2 years ago.
As for my mother, I do not have a clue. I lost contact with her over 20 years ago.
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First off; many thanks for all who have contributed to my questions.
So. I have also done a DNA ancestry test a few years ago and sent my results over a few other test providers.
One of them flagged up a Chapman and we got talking online. We discussed Mitchum amongst other things and are 100% that we are closely related - he comes up as a 2nd cousin.
I had a light-bulb moment today and had another look at our old messages.
He mentions the names; James, Cornelius and Albert are known names. He also mentioned the middle name Fenner. So we must be on the right track.
Does anyone know from what they found; if Cornelius had any brothers?
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I would add the origin of the name Chapman was a pedaller
Cheers
Guy
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Hi Tony
I am doing research for something and happened across your post and joined this forum specifically to answer - because I have just read a book about the Pratley family of Oxfordshire! The book is called "Traveller's Tale: The Making of a Fairground Showman" and is the biography of Walter Edward Reginald Pratley, known as Reg, who was born in 1895 and died in 1939. He wasn't born into the Fairground community, he joined it. The author of the book is David Slattery-Christy (Reg's grandson) and there are several family trees at the back. I couldn't find a Pratley born in 1955 because the trees are mainly concerned with the late 19th century and early 20th century, but you may well find clues in the book and in the family trees! The Pratley family came from Appleton and you can find some of them buried in the churchyard of St Lawrence's church there.
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Hi Tony,
I just looked at the index to "Fairground Destiny The Story of the ROWLAND family" by Frances Brown and there are two CHAPMAN entries:
from a report in World's Fair about Tavistock Goose Fair in 1924 - G. Chapman's chair-o-planes and swing boats by D. Chapman and W. CRIBB.
The other entry, for 1930, relates ".. also David Chapman whose games and swings are to be seen at every do" trying their fortunes in Cornwall this Easter
The National Fairground Archive https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/nfca have copies of World's Fair so might be worth looking there for info about these Chapmans if they fit into your family.
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Hello Moondance
Are you connected to this family?
Thank you for the info. I have made contact with the author, who apparently is my second cousin.
He says that their heritage is traveller but, as you say, the man in the book joined the fairground.
I have ordered the book. Looking forward to reading it.
Kind regards
Hi Tony
I am doing research for something and happened across your post and joined this forum specifically to answer - because I have just read a book about the Pratley family of Oxfordshire! The book is called "Traveller's Tale: The Making of a Fairground Showman" and is the biography of Walter Edward Reginald Pratley, known as Reg, who was born in 1895 and died in 1939. He wasn't born into the Fairground community, he joined it. The author of the book is David Slattery-Christy (Reg's grandson) and there are several family trees at the back. I couldn't find a Pratley born in 1955 because the trees are mainly concerned with the late 19th century and early 20th century, but you may well find clues in the book and in the family trees! The Pratley family came from Appleton and you can find some of them buried in the churchyard of St Lawrence's church there.
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Hi Tony - no, not at all (though coincidentally I did grow up in Appleton in the 80s and 90s). I'm writing a fiction book for children and am including a Fairground Traveller character, so I'm just reading lots of books connected with them and their history. How fantastic that you've found a second cousin!! I'm so pleased :)
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Hello Moondance
I have popped into Appleton this evening and had a mooch around the graveyard.
This is all thanks to you. I have also purchased the book - will start on it tonight.
Kindest regards
Hi Tony - no, not at all (though coincidentally I did grow up in Appleton in the 80s and 90s). I'm writing a fiction book for children and am including a Fairground Traveller character, so I'm just reading lots of books connected with them and their history. How fantastic that you've found a second cousin!! I'm so pleased :)
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I'm thrilled, Tony - what a happy coincidence that I could help!
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Hello All,
I'm new to this site. My Gedmatch kit # is RL048381C1. I read in another post that the following parent/grandparent/great-grandparent info was suggested to be listed:
MY PARENTS:
Father: Thomas Billy 'Tom' Gambrell, born 19 APR 1926 - no idea where our ancestors came to America from other than speculation if 'may' have been Ireland. The Gambrell name is seen with other variations - Gambrel, Gumbrel, Gamble, etc. and may not have even been the original biological name for all we know.
Mother: Roselle (she changed it to Roz) Morgan, born in 1930s, she's still alive and won't give us the exact date. lol Her Morgan line came from Glamorganshire, Wales.
I have done extensive work on my family tree for well over a decade, so I have lots of ancestral information but not so much on where my Roma / Romani ancestors came from or who they might be other than a Riggs / Holmes line from Epping Forest, Essex, UK seems one possibility. They're farther back in my tree though.
MY PATERNAL GRANDPARENTS:
Emmett Solomon Gambrell, born 27 Dec 1894
Donia Mae Windham, born 5 Jun 1893 - orginally from the Wyndham family in Norfolk, England
MY MATERNAL GRANDPARENTS:
John Tyler Morgan Sr., born 22 August 1907
Bertha McLain, born 12 March 1915 - originally from McLean clan of Isle of Skye, Scotland
MY PATERNAL GREAT-GRANDPARENTS:
Parents of my paternal grandfather:
Father: William Lawrence Gambrell, born 18 Jul 1862
Mother: Robbie Adelaide Hester, born 23 May 1865 - orginally from England
Parents of my maternal grandmother:
Father: William Willis Windham, born 17 Nov 1853
Mother: Martha Matilda Blakeney, born 18 August 1855 - from the Blakeneys of Ireland who originated in England
MY MATERNAL GREAT-GRANDPARENTS:
Parents of my maternal grandfather:
Father: George Brown Morgan, born 8 December 1888
Mother: Poline (Pauline) Sumrall, born 8 February 1890 - her Sumrall surname has many variants used among the family branches, including Summerall, Summerell, Somervaill - originally from Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Parents of my maternal grandmother:
Hillard Clarence McLain, born 19 NOV 1883
Emily Elizabeth Rigdon, born 3 JULY 1885 - Rigdon line orginally from Kent, England
Farther back up my maternal line I have ancestors from Epping Forest, Essex, England - surnames Riggs and Holmes, possible Rooke. I'm 'assuming' they were Roma / Romani, but I'd like to be more sure of that.
We show Iberian (Spanish/Portuguese) DNA and South Asian, all of which I've read might be part of our Roma / Romani ancestry. My son shows 21.8% Iberian on his My Heritage results, but we have no close Iberian ancestors. We have a lot of Native American ancestral lines on both sides of my family tree and I've been told Roma / Romani is mingled into that and their history lost as they began to identify as Native Americans, which fits with what was going on in America among ethnic groups and fits with the DNA triangulations of my cousins in America with Native American ancestry and matches from the Romany Research UK group on Facebook a few years ago.
I match the DNA in the http://www.newforestromanygypsytraveller.co.uk/dna.php study, to one degree or another, depending on the Gedmatch settings used - 100/5 or 100/3. Also, it's interesting that there are the New Forest and Epping Forest communities in the UK and communities by the very same names in early America, to which I have connections. So, lots of clues but nothing I can nail down for sure as my Roma / Romani ancestral connections so far.
Thanks in advance for any feedback, information, etc. that might help me on my search.
Debbie Gambrell