RootsChat.Com

Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: sbeckley on Tuesday 05 April 22 17:59 BST (UK)

Title: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: sbeckley on Tuesday 05 April 22 17:59 BST (UK)
 I am researching my family history but not getting very far so would be grateful for any help.

What I know so far.

My great grandfather John Leahy married Mary Hagan at old Roman Catholic Cathedral in Middlebrough in1896 their parents were Jeremiah Leahy and James Hagan.

Jeremiah Leahy/Lahey married  Ellen Gurran in1874 registered in Stockton but was probably Middlesbrough, they were both born in Ireland.

Thanks

Jeremiah's father was Jeremiah and Ellen's father was Martin
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: Girl Guide on Tuesday 05 April 22 20:24 BST (UK)
Welcome to Rootschat  :D

Does this look like the correct family in the 1881 census?  Living at 3, Wrays Yard, Middlesbrough, Yorkshire.

Jeremiah and Ellen (Lahey) both born Ireland with four children John born 1869, Mary born 1871, Jeremiah born 1873 and Margaret born 1877.  All the children have their birthplace as Middlesborough, Yorks.

Jeremiah's occupation is given as Lab (labourer) wharf.

Registration district Middlesbrough
Piece number 4846
Folio 103
Page 26

Interesting to note that they married after three of their children had been born.

What information are you looking for?  Are you trying to go backwards to Jeremiah and Ellen's parents?
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: sbeckley on Wednesday 06 April 22 17:02 BST (UK)
Thank you Girl Guide,

 yes this is the family I am researching and yes I am trying to go back to their Irish roots.
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: Daisypetal on Thursday 07 April 22 01:50 BST (UK)

Hi,

I think this is them in 1891.

The enumerator has made some spelling mistakes and the ages are out but the children are right and they are living at the same address , 1 Wray's Yard in 1901.

It gives birth places for Jeremiah (written as Thomas) and Ellen :)


1891
1 Gray's Yard, off Mason St

LEAHY
Thomas     Head    67    Ironworks labourer    Templemore Ireland     
Ellen           Wife    62                                       Ballasaders        "
Mary          Daur    20                                       Middlesbrough Yorks 
Jeremiah     Son    17                                              "              "
Margaret    Daur    15                                              "              "
George    G-son    6m                                             "               "



I wonder if it's Templemore parish in Tipperary, Ireland

https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rft/



or Templemore parish in Derry (Londonderry), NI.

https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rfu/


There is lots of info about both using these links.


Ballasaders?


Regards,
Daisy
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: Daisypetal on Thursday 07 April 22 01:59 BST (UK)

Ellen is a widow at the same address, 1 Wray's Yard, in 1911. This is her birth place, Connaught ??



Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: heywood on Thursday 07 April 22 08:00 BST (UK)
Ballisodare/Ballysadare, Sligo?
Ballaghaderreen Mayo/Roscommon?

Although they are not near each other.

There is this large group - i can’t find them on Family Search to link and on Ancestry they are transcribed as Leakey with a correction by a member to Leahey. This is correct.

1871 4896/115/12
John and Catherine Leahey b Ireland with several children b Middlesbrough, including a Jeremiah 7 yrs. the oldest William is b Ireland.


Living with them is Jeremiah Leahey and ‘Evon’ - Ellen? with children John 2 yrs, and Maria 6 months.
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: sbeckley on Thursday 07 April 22 14:53 BST (UK)
Thank you Daisy Petal,

I looked at Thomas but ignored it as name and ages didn't match but I will look at the links you provided.

Thank you Heywood,

Yes I think this my Jeremiah & Ellen, I will look at both places you provided.

Thank you both once again
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: Daisypetal on Thursday 07 April 22 21:58 BST (UK)

Hi,

Sorry, I hadn't realised that the links I gave you were for a pay to view site.

You might have seen this website already, but just in case :)

https://registers.nli.ie/

Lots of scrolling to see the images, but it is free :)

Regards,
Daisy
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: sbeckley on Friday 08 April 22 20:46 BST (UK)
thank you Daisy Petal
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: sbeckley on Saturday 16 April 22 16:57 BST (UK)
hi further info  that I cannot verify
Ellen's father Martin may have married Brigida Egan feb 1843 at Ballaghaderreen, Roscommon.
Martin's father Johannis, Brigida's father Michael.
Cannot find Ellen's birth, can anyone help?

thanks
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: heywood on Saturday 16 April 22 18:06 BST (UK)
Here is that marriage - February 1843 (bottom of right hand page)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632289#page/40/mode/1up

Those others names are witnesses rather than fathers’ names but they might be that too. There is an annotation difficult to read but it refers, I think, to consanguinity 3rd degree - relationship.
I will ask Maiden Stone, who might take a look and see.
There is a gap in baptisms in the records  :-\
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 16 April 22 18:35 BST (UK)

Ellen is a widow at the same address, 1 Wray's Yard, in 1911. This is her birth place, Connaught ??


Roscommon/Mayo border near Ballaghaderreen changed late 19th C. Both counties are in the province of Connaught. Ellen's birthplace may have switched counties, which would explain why she didn't specify a county, she may have been unsure which county to put. Ballinasloe is another Roscommon town which changed counties. Some people born in Ballinasloe who lived in Britain wrote the town but not a county on census returns.
I read your message about the marriage register, heywood.
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 16 April 22 19:25 BST (UK)
Here is that marriage - February 1843 (bottom of right hand page)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632289#page/40/mode/1up

Those others names are witnesses rather than fathers’ names but they might be that too. There is an annotation difficult to read but it refers, I think, to consanguinity 3rd degree - relationship.


I agree with heywood. Witnesses (column heading is "Testes"). Consanguinity 3rd degree for both groom and bride. They had a common ancestor (related by blood). Martin and Bridget were the same generation as each other.

Scrawl is hard to read. I couldn't even make out groom's surname.
My original transcription. [  ] = unreadable.
"Martinus [    ]
 Brigida Egan
Witnesses Johannes [    ] (same surname as groom), Michaelis Egan
 [  ] 3  3
con.  [  ]abus
Unsure if date was 26th or 27th. Word in date column is "die" (day) but no number.  Previous weddings were 26th. Weddings on next page were 27th. February was a traditional month for weddings.

Reading others with similar notes helps.
2 weddings on same page, 25th Feb.
 Michael Egan & Maria Egan  con. grad[  ] (Both witnesses Martin Egan)
 Ant..  Dorkin & Serah (Sarah) Regan
Facing page:
5th Feb. Jacobus Closs[   ] & Elinora Quin
17th Feb. Patritius Morris & Brigida Ha[  ]
19th Feb. Ro[   ] Regan & Catherina Costello (?)

Comparing all those I think note next to Martin [  ] & Brigid Egan is:
"Im. 3 3
 con. gradibus"
"Im" Latin abbreviation  for impediment.

P.S. Not relevant to this enquiry but, I saw another interesting note at top of facing page. I think it is about the woman who married that day asking in 1908 for written evidence of her wedding so that she could use it as proof she was old enough (70+) to apply for the new state pension.




 
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: heywood on Saturday 16 April 22 19:30 BST (UK)
Thanks M S. :)
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 16 April 22 21:41 BST (UK)

 Consanguinity 3rd degree for both groom and bride. They had a common ancestor (related by blood). Martin and Bridget were the same generation as each other.


Martin and Bridget were probably 2nd cousins (a common great-grandparent) if the priest had worked out their relationship correctly.
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: sbeckley on Saturday 16 April 22 21:56 BST (UK)
thank you Heyward and Maiden Stone

Your knowledge of the catholic church records is really helpful. I am really grateful.
Title: Re: Leahy/Lahey, Hagan, Gurran family
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 16 April 22 23:07 BST (UK)
"10 FAQs about Irish Marriages"
https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/ten-faqs-about-irish-marriage-records
It's a long article but worth reading. An important point it makes is that there were many differences pre- and post- Famine. I disagree with a statement by the author that a female witness was always recorded in Catholic registers under her maiden surname. It may have been a custom in certain areas but I don't believe it happened everywhere. My married female ancestors and relatives who were marriage witnesses and baptism sponsors in Mayo (some not far from Ballaghaderreen) used their married names. Heywood may have an opinion.
There are informative articles about many topics in the "News" section of Ireland Reaching Out aka IrelandXO. It's a FH website for the Irish diaspora.

thank you Heyward and Maiden Stone

Your knowledge of the catholic church records is really helpful. I am really grateful.


There are many threads on RootsChat about understanding Catholic marriage registers, marriage dispensations and consanguinity. Heywood and I have contributed to several.

Many Irish Catholic priests seemed to have their own styles and preferences when writing up marriage registers in that era.. Names of people getting married and names of witnesses were the only items of information that were included in every one. Marriage register in my GF's parish has degrees of consanguinity or affinity in the final column, like the Egan marriage. The one in my GM's parish didn't mention consanguinity; the last column was used to note stipends (money offerings to the church). Parish of my GF's 1st wife's family had a big register with printed headed columns on a double-page, with names of mothers & fathers + their addresses + addresses of witnesses.