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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: JethroBodine on Sunday 03 April 22 03:53 BST (UK)
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Looking for marriage in Petworth area of a Luttman to a Sarah (unknown). 1715-1745. Also any census showing Sarah Luttman after. She remarried to Gawen Harris Nash ca1747. Any census showing Sarah Nash after 1747. Any deaths connected. Thanks.
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There is this one
Richard Lutman m Sarah Adakes 23 Apr 1735 Hunston, Sussex
FHL Film Number: 2186970
The film is on FS here https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6LH9-BKV?mode=g&cat=1022439
I’ll leave it to you to find the original image.
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Sarah was a widow when she married Richard. Both were recorded as of Sidlesham. Richard was a carpenter (from the marriage licence). Hunston is not that close to Petworth. Where does Petworth fit in?
Where did the 1747 marriage take place?
She won't appear on any census since the earliest nationwide census with proper names recorded is 1841. I doubt she lived that long!
Nell
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Hi
The third marriage 1747 is at St georges Chapel Windsor and they are both of Petworth.
It looks like Richard died at Petworth burial 19.3.1736.(but could be their son)
Child bapt at Sidlesham Richard 14.10.1735
So Sarah was pregnant when she married.
Gawan Harris Nash bapt at Petworth 2.6.1724 s of GH Nash and Mary .
Buried 9.8.1752 St Georges Chapel Windsor
Daughter Jane bapt at Windsor 26 Feb 1748.
There are two PCC Wills for a Gawan Harris Nash 1753 and 1785 which should help.
The first desires to be buried in the vault with his two dear wives and the 1785 seems to be Sarah's step son.But to be honest I'm quite confused that the man's Will 1753 has a son in the Army.
Ah I get it Sarah married the father -Gawan Harris Nash who died in 1752 and was born 11.7.1699 at Petworth.
Therefore Sarah Nash widow buried at Petworth 28.2.1780 could well be her.
Ciderdrinker
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Thanks, ciderdrinker.
Sarah Nash was buried 28 Feb 1780 at Petworth. Her will (reference STC I/43/346 at WSRO) is viewable here on FamilySearch:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4W4-27?i=430&cat=1022203
Mentions her own daughter Jane (now married) and her nephew Peter Luttman.
A Richard Lutman left a will in 1738 ref STC I/36/336 - haven't found that image yet.
Nell
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Is there a marriage is Sarah and an Adakes? Does marriage to Richard Luttman call her a widow?
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Not sure the Richard Luttman Sarah Adakes is the right one. Saw a pedigree published that had this Sarah and Richard dying after the marriage to Nash. And son Richard living after 1800. No mention of Richard in Sarah Nash will.
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Hello
Yes I'm begining have doublts too.
There is a latter possible probate for Richard from the 1750's which looks like Sarah's husband and a couple of possible deaths.And they are not at Petworth.
Following up the nephew Peter Luttman.
There is a baptism at Petworth 8.10.1736 born 27th Sept s of Thomas and Elizabeth Lutmann.
Peter is a tallow chandler and grocer.He takes on an apprentice Thomas Poulter in 1778 and another John Wallbutt in 1786. There is a PCC Will 1810 .It mentions a cousin William Long and nieces and nephews Martha ,Jane and Henry Hale.
His father Thomas was baptised 15.5.1708 at Petworth .There is a possible marriage to a Elizabeth Hareby widow 19.5.1734 but that is in the wilds of Horncastle Lincolnshire
Children Peter 1736 and Mary 6.6.1739
Thomas was buried 23.2.1772 and left a Will in the Bp of Chichester records at Sussex.
Grandfather Peter Lutman bapt 26.6.1676 s of John at Petworth
He married Joanna Sandham in London at St Peters and Pauls Wharf 1.12.1706 .Both of Petworth and by licence.(she was buried 16.12.1742 at Petworth widow)
Children Andrew 13.11.1707 ,Thomas 15.5.1708 and Sarah 8.3.1709 All at Petworth
Will again at Sussex 1740
.So in theory Mrs Sarah Luttman should be the wife of Andrew .But I can see no marriage and his Will is provern 1767.
So is Mrs Sarah Luttman the sister who is unmarried?
Ciderdrinker
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Does marriage to Richard Luttman call her a widow?
Yes it does - see my post #2 here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=860772.msg7298969#msg7298969
I've also looked at the original PR marriage entry in 1735. It definitely says that Sarah is a widow and that both parties were of Sidlesham.
There is a baptism on 14 Oct 1735 at Sidlesham for a Richard Lutman, son of Richard and Sarah. That might explain the need to marry somewhere other than Sidlesham and by licence. There are no more baptisms to these parents at Sidlesham. A Richard and Ann start baptising children in late 1750s.
Two burials at Sidlesham for Sarah Lutman:
22 May 1763
and
18 Dec 1760
The Richard Lutman who was buried in Petworth 19 Mar 1736 was aged 78.
I can't find a marriage in Sussex between a Sarah and an Adaker that would fit the dates or a burial for an Adaker that makes any sense.
The marriage at Hunston doesn't feel right for the later events.
Nell
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I think the theory that Sarah Luttman was single has merit. Perhaps Mrs was a misreading of handwriting (Although, I think I remember seeing it myself).
Was there a will by the elder Peter Lutman or his wife Joanna?
It would be strange for her first marriage to be at age 39.
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Good Morning
Yes there was a Will for Peter Luttman the elder recorded under the Bishop of Chichester in 1740.
I assume a copy can be obatianed from Sussex archives.
Ciderdrinker
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Yes there was a Will for Peter Luttman the elder recorded under the Bishop of Chichester in 1740.
I assume a copy can be obatianed from Sussex archives.
You can see it on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DWLS-CV1
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So in 1740, His daughter Sarah was still called Sarah Luttman at age 31.
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I have trouble reading the handwriting. Does Peter’s will mention his wife? Does Joanna have a will ca1742? Could Sarah Luttman have married another Luttman (cousin)?
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Hi
Good spot on the Will.
After the preamble about God and being decently buried etc.
He leaves his messages and barn ,stable ,riverside garden situated in the Market Place at Petworth called the Dyehouse to his son Andrew.It was purchased from Joseph Morris.
From it he and his heirs must pay Peter's funeral expenses and debts.
His loving wife Joanna gets an annual payment of £10 to be paid quarterly on the Quarter Days.
She also gets the best bed and pillows sheets etc.
Andrew gets a silver tankard and five spoons bought at Peter's marriage marked P LF
Thomas his son and his daughter Sarah Luttman get half each of the silver plate.
Thomas £5
Sarah £100 to be paid six months after my death.She also gets a damask tablecloth napikins .
And remainder of personel effects to be disposed of after the payment of his death to son Andrew.
Andrew is the executor
And there are Overseers Richard Goiodyear Gent and Nicholas Grifford?
No Will for Joanna but Andrew's Will of 1767 cracks it
He leaves his messages and stables etc to his brother Thomas for life and then to his nephew Peter Luttman.
To his sister Sarah Nashwidow to be paid yearly payments of £10 to be paid by Thomas or Peter starting 6 months after Andrews death with half yearly payments.
Nephew Peter £100
Niece Mary Luttman £200,£100 in six months and £100 after the death of his brother Thomas.
Niece Jane Nash £150 to be paid eighteen months after the death of her mother
Servant Sarah Smith £50 to be paid 6 months after his death.
The rest goes to his brother Thomas
6.12.1767
It is on Familysearch https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DYX3-5DJ?i=771&cat=1022203
no 772 in 1767
So it is the right family and for some reason Sarah who is unmarried in 1747 is called Mrs. Could it be that she is serving at Court and the custom is to call her Mrs?
Anyway it is definitely her.
Thomas's Will 1773 says he is a grocer
Wife Elizabeth bedstead and bolsters etc and other linen
The interest of £200 for life and the rent of his copyhold property for life to give her a comfortable life.
Daughter Mary £50 to be paid within 6 months.And £200 after her mother's death and if Mary should die first the money goes to her children.She also gets a silver watch,coffeen pot and salver,6 silver teaspoons ,linen and pewter plates but her mother shall get the use of it first.
Son Peter a gold watch ,a silver watch and the remaining plate.
Peter is the Excutor
3.5.1773
/www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6DSS-NVZ?i=675&cat=1022203
1773 no 676
It doesn't mention Sarah or Jane but you may as well have them all
So that solves it.
Ciderdrinker
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Are you certain the surname is Luttman and not Luffman?Remember there was no standard spelling of names before the late 18th century. I have acquired no less than 13 surname variants, one of which is in fact Luttman. Though extremely uncommon there are Luffman records throughout Southern England, a lot of which are in Hampshire and West Sussex.Regarding appearance on a census, though it is true to say that names did not appear on the UK census until 1841, the census was introduced in 1801, and there are errors where some (a very few) places did record names and just numbers, so it might just be worth googling "pre 1841 census records" and see what if anything appears.
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I think the theory that Sarah Luttman was single has merit. Perhaps Mrs was a misreading of handwriting (Although, I think I remember seeing it myself).
It was quite normal to use Mrs to describe women from the genteel classes who were single so that is not necessarily an indication of a woman's marital status.
Since the Luttmans you are looking seem to be of a higher social standing, it is not unexpected to see the unmarried Sarah described as Mrs.
Nell
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Thanks for all the help. This is great. Now I need to find out why Sarah’s daughter Jane Nash, who later is shown as Jane Yeomans, has her children recorded as base born in their christening records.
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Any christening of Joanna Sandman? I saw in an index a Joan, but could not look at document.
Peter Luttman’s (elder) father was John? Do we know his mother? Marriage of John Luttman around 1650? Will?
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Hi Jethro
First question .There is a marriage of a Jane Nash at St george Hannover Square that fits.
John Youmans bach of this parish and Jane Nash spinster of this parish by banns 5th Decemver 1768.
Witnesses John Barrows and Ann Robinson
But I can't find a burial for him or Jane.There are tons that could be him.I assume he must have died beteen 1768 and the childrens births.
Secondly there is a Joan Sandham baptised at Petworth 3.1.1671 d of Henry.
This might explain why there were only 3 children as she would be 38 when Sarah was born.
There is a brother Henry 13.5.1677.The others are older Elizabeth 8.2.1662,Henry 12.8.1664,Will 17.9.1765.
Henry married Sarah Arnall at Petworth 23.4.1662.
There are several possible deaths and baptisms for him.
Bapt 10.12.1639 to Henry and Mary or 8.8.1630 to William Sandham.
Back to the Lutmans
John's children -Elizabeth 4.1.1671,William burried 30.12.1676,Peter 29.6.1676,Charles 18.1.1678-16.2.1680 ,and a very late Mary 7.8.1794
A couple of possible deaths but no marriage that fit the bill in Sussex
John bapt 10.1.1647 s of Thomas Lutman
Siblings -Margaret 28.6.1641 and Jane 18.12.1644
Again short of a marriage and more than one possible death for Thomas Lutman
Thomas bapt 18.6.1620 s of John Lutman
Siblings Jane 1.9.1616
Marriage John and Margaret May at Petworth 14.2.1608
Burial Thomas 8.9.1670
Then we have Wills which may add some light on the family and an inhertitance distpute.
Thomas Luttman vs Vousden 1681 National Archives reference C5/519/93 Petworth
John 1642 of Petworth at Chichester .
Burials John 1690 no date given,John 1699,,Richard 19.3.1736,Mrs Alice Lutman 27.8.1742.(Could possibly be John's wife)
That's all I can see for now
Ciderdrinker