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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: serveta on Friday 01 April 22 23:17 BST (UK)
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Harriet Maria Brammer born 1849 in Fenton, Staffordshire
Unable to locate any definitive records for Charlotte or Samuel Brammer. Any help finding possible links to Harriet would be greatly appreciated
Birth Cert:
Born 5 April 1849 in Fenton, County of Stafford, Stoke upon Trent. Mother named as Charlotte Brammer, father not named
Marriage Cert:
1 April 1872 Middlesbrough to David Weepers. Harriett Maria Brammer aged 22 farther named as Samuel Brammer - deceased Coachman
1911 census:
Harriet M McKeever widow aged 61 birth place given as Fenton Near Newcastle Under Lyme, Staffordshire
Kind Regards
Ron
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If Samuel is not named as her father then she made him up when she married. Common amongst illegitimate children - made them appear "respectable"
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1861 census for Spittals Workhouse Staffs - initials only - all surname Brammer & all b Fenton
Transcription says "mother M Ball" but the image has nothing I can see to support that
The births below are all illegitimate - nothing for T Brammer
C - 37 - female - married
H - 10 - female
R - 6 - male (Ralph Cooper Brammer)
T - 4 - female
E 2 - female - (Edith Cooper Brammer) - Died Sept qtr 1861
RG9 Piece 1939 Folio 119 Page 4
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Could this be mother Charlotte?
Staffordshire Advertiser
10 August 1861 (page 7)
"The officer went apprehend the defendant under a warrant obtained Charlotte Brammer for arrears on an order of affiliation, when the assault complained of was committed. Being unable to meet, the demands ..."
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1871
Charlotte Brammer 48 widow b Fenton
Ralph Brammer 15 Son b Fenton
John Atherton 49 Visitor b Cheshire
Piece 2869 Folio 65 Page 23
Ralph Cooper Brammer married in Leeds in 1877
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1851 census Ancestry:
Piece: 2006; Folio: 297; Page: 16
Name Age
Ralph Brands 64
Charlotte Brands 46
Charlotte Brands 25 b Fenton
Harriette Maria Brands 2 b Fenton
Maureen
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Original page looks like it's supposed to read Brammer not Brands. In 1841 Ralph and Charlotte transcribed as Brammer, 3 children (including Charlotte junior) transcribed as Branner (this is in Stoke Upon Trent).
Charlotte Brammer bp.20/10/1822 Stoke upon Trent, dau. of Ralph and Charlotte.
Annette
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Marriage;
03 Sep 1810 St Bartholomew, Norton-in-the-Moors
Ralph BRAMMER a bachelor, abode Stoke to Charlotte GARNER a spinster, abode Maer
Witnesses, Wm. STEEL/Thos. TWIGG
Bride and Groom made their mark thus X.
Above on FreeREG.
They Bapt;
Susannah 22 Sep 1811 (married Thomas BURTON 16 Apr 1843)
Caroline 26 Dec 1813 (father a servant)
Henry 24 Mar 1816 (father a coachman)
Daniel Ralph 16 May 1819 (father a labourer) buried 21 Feb 1850 age 31
Charlotte 20 Oct 1822 (father a gardener)
Surname spelt Brammer/Brammar
RALPH buried 20 Sep 1852 age 64 c 1788 GRO has him a Beamer
CHARLOTTE buried 04 Jul 1860 age 83 c 1777 GRO has 82
1841 we have;
Charlotte Brammer 55
Ralph Brammer 50
Henry Branner 25
Ralph Branner 20 (must be Daniel Ralph)
Charlotte Branner 15
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I think CHARLOTTE nee Garner was likely bapt 25 Dec 1782 Burslem to THOMAS/BETTY Garner
Sister SUSANNAH bapt same day
Marriage;
03 Dec 1780 St Mary, Bucknell
Betty BALL
Thomas GARNER
Another likely child;
Joshua Ball 11 Nov 1781
Have a look on FreeREG and see what you think
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Can I say a big thank you to you all as it all makes sense some of which I had seen before but disregarded as unsure of a clear connection, in respect of Samuel Brammer named on marriage cert I almost discounted this but was reluctant due to no supporting evidence and watching the Greg Davies episode of WDYTYA when a supposed father named on marriage cert was proved to be a lie . So the consensus of opinion seems to be that Ralph and Charlotte are the parents of Charlotte Brammer who is the mother of Harriet Maria. The name of Ralph Cooper Brammer is also interesting as his middle name could be a clue to possible surname of a maternal grandparent
Very much appreciate all your time and efforts
Kind Regards
Ron
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Follow up question regards marital status of Charlotte born abt 1805 and Charlotte born abt 1825
Charlotte born abt 1825 was living with parents Ralph & Charlotte Brammer in 1851
Marriage found for Charlotte Garner & Ralph Brammer 1810 .. Charlotte's parents ? although date not matching declared marital age of Charlotte in 1851 (born 1805) given that D.O.B can be out by a possible 10 years I still need clarification this is correct although details almost makes sense
Charlotte was almost certainly unmarried when Harriet was born
More food for thought re 1861 census for Spittals Workhouse Staffs
C Brammer - 37 - female - married - if this is Harriet's mother why state married name as Brammer when maiden name would have been Brammer ?
Harriet Maria Brammer would have been living in Middlesbrough by 1871 as by 1872 she was married and first child William James Weepers was born
So final question do we think D.O.B for Charlotte could be that far out or is the marriage details for 1810 for some other family
Kind Regards
Ron
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1871
Charlotte Brammer 48 widow b Fenton
Ralph Brammer 15 Son b Fenton
John Atherton 49 Visitor b Cheshire
Piece 2869 Folio 65 Page 23
Ralph Cooper Brammer married in Leeds in 1877
Is this the 1877 marriage to Mary Ann Mallinson?
3 Nov 1877 Burmantofts, St Stephen, Yorkshire
Ralph Cooper Brammer age 22 labourer Father Matthew Cooper Brammer, joiner
Spouse: Mary Ann Mallinson
One witness Sarah Elizabeth Cooper Brammer
Ralph Brammer 35 Stoke Upon Trent, Staffordshire, street mason
Mary A Brammer 30 Wife
Lily Brammer 7 Daughter
Ralph Brammer 4 Son
Charlotte Tunstall M 70 Mother Stoke On Trent
Roland Brammer 4 mths transcribed as Son-in-law but can’t make out original entry
Seth Stockdale 31Boarder
Harriet “ 4 Daughter
1891 Piece: 3693 Folio: 121
This appears to be Sarah Elizabeth Cooper Brammer with her mother
1881 Piece: 4519 Folio: 5 Page Number: 6
Charlotte Brammer 60 Widow Stoke On Trent
Sarah E. Brammer 23 dau Stoke On Trent
Arthur Brammer 2 son Leeds
Arthur Atkinson Brammer
Birth 24 Apr 1878
Baptism 19 Jun 1878 Leeds, St Mary, Yorkshire
Mother: Sarah Elizabeth Cooper Brammer
Sarah banns 11/18/ 25 Aug 1889 Leeds, Emmanuel, Yorkshire
Spouse: Thomas Makin
I can only see the banns online
Edit marriage entry 1893
Sarah Elizabeth C Brammer Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec 1893 Leeds
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Firstly if you look at the 1851 Census Charlottes age is hard to read more like 60+
Certainly not 46.
Ralph Brands 64
Charlotte Brands 46***
Charlotte Brands 25 b Fenton
Harriette Maria Brands 2 b Fenton
The 1810 Marriage seems correct to me and Daug Charlotte bapt 1822 (see my earlier posts)
Trish :)
Re 1861 Census. It was not uinusual for unm women to state they were married.
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Appears to be Matthew in 1851 Census.
1851 Census
Church St
Burslem, Staffordshire
William Cooper 56 Head Mar Potter born Bridgford
Elizabeth Cooper 56 Wife Mar born Bridgford
Matthew Cooper 25 Son Unm Joiner born Stafford, Staffordshire****
Michael Ashmore 28 Lodger
I would not be totally certain that Matthew is the Father of all the children of Charlotte though.
1861 and 1871 Matthew is still unmarried.
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Thanks again for your help but gonna rule out the Burslem, Staffordshire connection as this seems to relate to another Harriet Brammer born about the same time however, the 1851 Census is worth another look
Kind Regards
Ron