RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Sligo => Topic started by: Max2121 on Monday 21 March 22 12:02 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
If a girl has full age on her marriage record is that set in stone that she was?
I am looking into my great grandmother she married my great grandfather in 1879 but the only birth record I can find has her born in 1867
Would a girl that young really have married?
Any help would be greatly appreciated
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Isn't it unlikely that an 11 or 12 year old would pass for 21?
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It is indeed, I know they could be legally wed at quite a young age but seeing full age seems a bit odd if she was that young, I can't find anyone else who matches though. There again I am no expert
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Her name was Mary Morrison daughter of Michael Morrison, she married Michael Colligan in 1879, quite a common name I know
Ballymote is the location.
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it wasn’t uncommon for a 17-20 year old to lie about being over 21. you didn’t need any sort of certificate to prove your age as it was usually based on trust. I believe girls could be wed at age 13 or so however i highly doubt an 11/12 year old could even pass as 19/20 and even at that girls that young didn’t usually marry.
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Thank you for replying both of you, I guess this may be one of those brick walls.
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are michael and mary together in the census? if they are what age is she then and what birth year does that reflect? if they had any daughters it’s likely one of them could be named after mary’s mother.
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Yes they are, one gives her birth year as 1865 and one as 1871, I did see a birth entry for a Mary Morrison daughter of Michael Morrison and Honoria Kevil 1867.
My grandmother was named Honoria and this is what fuels my confusion.
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Here is your previous thread for information. I doubt Honoria as mother due to Mary’s age :-\
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=858879.0
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Thank you, can anyone else see a possible Mary Morrison that fit's the bill? If you look at the Colligan family in the 1901 census there is a 15 year old daughter Belinda and Mary's age is down as 30.
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Thank you, can anyone else see a possible Mary Morrison that fit's the bill? If you look at the Colligan family in the 1901 census there is a 15 year old daughter Belinda and Mary's age is down as 30.
Link to the 1901 census-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Sligo/Ballymote/Newtown_Street/1679481/
Daughter down as Belenda, but she may have been registered as Kate in 1886.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02592/1957710.pdf
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Thank you Kiltaglassan, so can you see the problem with Mary's age there and the confusion with the marriage record?
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Age was 'given' information so they didn't have to prove with a certificate their age when marrying although unlikely a girl of 11/12 could pass themselves off as 10 years older especially if the marriage was locally to where they lived, so it is more likely you are looking at another person of same/simular names baptism/birth record, possibly a cousin or aunt the same family grouping.
I would check all census prior and after marriage, then try to follow the 11/12 yr old, but also go back a generation to see if an aunt or cousin was named the same name given that you see a family name connection.
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The census with my grandmother has her mum's (Mary Morrison) year of birth as one at 1865 (1911 census) and one at 1871 (1901 census) so even going by the 1865 one she would still be very young when she married Michael Colligan also that birth record of 1867 is between the two
I will however check and see if I can see another Mary Morrison but so far she is the only one.
I do appreciate your time everyone
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Technically marriage at that age was legal (although considered rare). Basically anyone who had reached the age of puberty was eligible to marry - this was considered 12 for girls and 14 for boys.
It wasn't until 1929 in the UK that the Age of Marriage Act raised the age to 16 (Northern Ireland's equivalent Act did not come into place until 1951)
In Ireland itself the equivalent legislation was not passed until 1972
http://www.maggieblanck.com/Mayopages/Customs.html
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I am looking into my great grandmother she married my great grandfather in 1879 but the only birth record I can find has her born in 1867
The latest year she could have been born was 1858 if she was full age (21 or over) in 1879. Birth registrations didn't begin until 1864.
The only source which may have information about her birth is a baptism register.
A relative of mine was born 1863/4, according to her age on 1911 census. She lived and died in the place she was born. Her birth wasn't registered so I assume she was born before start of birth registration. There is no surviving record of her baptism.
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The census with my grandmother has her mum's (Mary Morrison) year of birth as one at 1865 (1911 census) and one at 1871 (1901 census) so even going by the 1865 one she would still be very young when she married Michael Colligan also that birth record of 1867 is between the two
I will however check and see if I can see another Mary Morrison but so far she is the only one.
I do appreciate your time everyone
You could also consider the fact that with the state pension introduced about 1908/9, people mysteriously gained a few years in the 1911 census.
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I am looking into my great grandmother she married my great grandfather in 1879 but the only birth record I can find has her born in 1867
The latest year she could have been born was 1858 if she was full age (21 or over) in 1879. Birth registrations didn't begin until 1864.
The only source which may have information about her birth is a baptism register.
A relative of mine was born 1863/4, according to her age on 1911 census. She lived and died in the place she was born. Her birth wasn't registered so I assume she was born before start of birth registration. There is no surviving record of her baptism.
The 2 available census have her as born either 1865 or 1871 so they do kind of support the birth year of 1867. Is it possible that the marriage record is inaccurate with her down as full age instead of minor?
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I linked an earlier thread in reply #8. Here is part of a post from there:
Here is a marriage for Michael Morrison and Bridget Walsh in February 1852.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632303#page/90/mode/1up
There are baptisms, Thomas, 1857; Margaret 1858; John 1860 all with father Michael, of Ballymote. Sadly, no mother’s name , no Mary and no Godparents.
There are several Morrisons in Ballymote in censuses. If I recall, a witness to the Colligan/Morrison marriage is Thomas Morrison and 1901 census shows Bridget Morison with stepson Michael and son Thomas living Newton Street.
In the previous thread, reply #9, it was noted that:
“There are a couple of skirmishes between Michael and Mary Colligan and Thomas Morrison of Newtown, Ballymote.
26th March 1896, Thomas v Michael and Mary, the witnesses are Thomas (presumably the complainant) and Bt Morrison (Bridget, I assume).”
Another incident in 1870 involves Michael Morrison, his daughter Mary and a connected one Michael and his son with Biddy as a witness.
I realise that the census age of Mary would mean that this could not be your Mary but if this is the Michael and Bridget with a son Thomas b 1857 - that age would also be wrong in the census.
Ages are often wrong.
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The 2 available census have her as born either 1865 or 1871 so they do kind of support the birth year of 1867. Is it possible that the marriage record is inaccurate with her down as full age instead of minor?
An estimated birth year of 1871 is impossible if she married in 1879.
Many ages on 1901 and 1911 census of Ireland were inaccurate. They should be regarded as a guide not as gospel.
My GF and his siblings were of same vintage as your Mary Morrison. Their ages were at least a decade out on 1901 census; ages of 3 of them were more realistic but may not have been entirely accurate on 1911 census. GF went to England when he was a young man. His age was wrong on every census and his rate of aging slowed on censuses as he got older. ;) The brother next in age lived with him in England for a while and the brother's age was also "adjusted" on the census return.
People were supposed to give their age at last birthday, if known, on a census return. The estimated year of birth is calculated by subtracting age from census year. If a person knew their age and the date of their birthday, and told the truth, and if their birthday was before the census date, then the estimated year of birth was correct. Taking my granddad as an example again, even if he'd told the truth about his age on every census, his estimated year of birth would have always been a year later than his actual year of birth because he was born in the second half of the year. My grandma always gave her correct age on a census return but her "estimated year of birth" was usually the year after she was born because she was born in May and a census was normally taken in March or April, a few weeks before her birthday.
Another elder brother of my GF put incorrect ages of 2 of his children on a census return. He had a big family, how was he expected to remember how old they all were? When one of his sons registered his mother's death, he underestimated her age by around a decade. She would have been a contemporary of your Mary Morrison.
An error in a marriage record is possible. However, it's unlikely that a 14 year-old would be mistaken for a 21 year-old.
Have you considered the surname variant Morrisoe?
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The 2 available census have her as born either 1865 or 1871 so they do kind of support the birth year of 1867. Is it possible that the marriage record is inaccurate with her down as full age instead of minor?
An estimated birth year of 1871 is impossible if she married in 1879.
Many ages on 1901 and 1911 census of Ireland were inaccurate. They should be regarded as a guide not as gospel.
My GF and his siblings were of same vintage as your Mary Morrison. Their ages were at least a decade out on 1901 census; ages of 3 of them were more realistic but may not have been entirely accurate on 1911 census. GF went to England when he was a young man. His age was wrong on every census and his rate of aging slowed on censuses as he got older. ;) The brother next in age lived with him in England for a while and the brother's age was also "adjusted" on the census return.
People were supposed to give their age at last birthday, if known, on a census return. The estimated year of birth is calculated by subtracting age from census year. If a person knew their age and the date of their birthday, and told the truth, and if their birthday was before the census date, then the estimated year of birth was correct. Taking my granddad as an example again, even if he'd told the truth about his age on every census, his estimated year of birth would have always been a year later than his actual year of birth because he was born in the second half of the year. My grandma always gave her correct age on a census return but her "estimated year of birth" was usually the year after she was born because she was born in May and a census was normally taken in March or April, a few weeks before her birthday.
Another elder brother of my GF put incorrect ages of 2 of his children on a census return. He had a big family, how was he expected to remember how old they all were? When one of his sons registered his mother's death, he underestimated her age by around a decade. She would have been a contemporary of your Mary Morrison.
An error in a marriage record is possible. However, it's unlikely that a 14 year-old would be mistaken for a 21 year-old.
Have you considered the surname variant Morrisoe?
That is really interesting with regard to year of birth and census returns something I will have to bear in mind.
I had not considered the variant Morrisoe as not heard of it before and also never thought of a variant as Morrison is on my grandmother's birth certificate and her mother's marriage record but I will see what I can find.
Bottom line really is, is there anyway of finding out who Mary Morrison's mother is?
Thank you once again for your advice, it is good knowing you people are out there willing to help
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12th January 1880
Baptism of Mary Ellen Colligan - parents Michael Colligan and Mary Morrison
Godparents Thomas Morrison and Nannie ….