RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: stormi on Saturday 19 March 22 13:16 GMT (UK)
-
Hi all,
This lovely photo is of my 3rd great grand parents Henry & Phoebe Timms in Coventry UK taken about 1887, with their two daughters Annie and Amy.
EDIT: After some very helpful input on the board I now realise this is of my 2nd great grandparents Edward and Rose Timms, with two of their daughters.
I was just wondering about the lapel badge/pin Edward is wearing, would that be anything significant ie; representing something he was a member of? Or just purely decorative.
ps - he was a builder
Thank you all,
-
What was his occupation
-
Builder.
-
Not sure if this'll help or not, but here is a larger version assuming this is the pin you're referring to.
BTW, a beautiful family photo.
-
Not sure if this'll help or not, but here is a larger version assuming this is the pin you're referring to.
BTW, a beautiful family photo.
Thank you John, appreciated! Yes it is a lovely photo isn't it? I have family photos that are younger than this one which haven't held up so well for so many years, the clarity is exceptional. It makes me wonder if it was to do with the rapidly changing technologies surrounding photography back in these times, perhaps there were periods of 'better' equipment being used by professional portait photographers, I don't know the history but I am guessing there would have been ebbs/flows of expensive tech / cheaper tech / better quality / worse quality. Of course also how the photo was stored makes a large difference doesn't it.
FYI when I started my family tree research journey my family had no memory or reference to this generation, my Grandad (whos still alive and well at 92) knew nothing past his grand-parents. You can imagine his surprise when I not only discovered his great grand parents names, but eventually acquired photos from making connections with other living relatives of the family.
-
Are you sure this was taken in 1887 because it looks later than that to me, if you can post the whole photo including the back if you have it would help.
Carol
-
Are you sure this was taken in 1887 because it looks later than that to me, if you can post the whole photo including the back if you have it would help.
Carol
The way I dated the photo was based on the two girls and when they were born. Annie on the left was born 1881 and Amy on the right was born 1883. I thought it would approx be around 1887 based on that. I don't have the back sorry, I received the scan from a family member.
-
Are you sure this was taken in 1887 because it looks later than that to me, if you can post the whole photo including the back if you have it would help.
Carol
I agree with Carol. This looks mid to late 1910s - into the 1920s to me.
PS - just read your post, Steve. Are you sure it's the family that you think it is?
-
Yes Gadget, that was my thinking too, the photo quality and tone, and the lady's blouse and skirt. also the collar and tie all put it in that time frame.
Carol
-
Clues to me are the man's collar pin (behind the knot). The girls' hair ribbons and woman's blouse.
* Posted before I read your last,Carol - two minds and all that!
-
You're very lucky Stormi to have so much of your family history. I can't get past my Great Grandfather. He left Connecticut, USA and went to Alabama prior to the US civil war. According to him he was born in New Haven, CT about 1814, but no info earlier. After a very long search I finally found his grave site, but's it. Good for you on finding what you have.
-
Well, I am open to being corrected of course if my information is wrong. Here is a photo of Henry and Phoebe taken outside their Launderette approx around 1900-1910.
In the first photograph Henry should be about 33, in the second photo he should be about 50. Similarly for Phoebe.
-
Ah - we had that one a while back. Didn't you get the wrong person originally?
-
I don't think it's the same couple, men keep the same parting all their life.
Carol
-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=856546.0
Add - Henry Timms dated circa 1900.
-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=856546.0
Add - Henry Timms dated circa 1900.
The two gents I was comparing in those photos I did finally work out. My great great grandfather Edward is not present in that family photo. The man on the right was his brother William. The man on the very left was Annie's husband Joseph.
-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=856546.0
Add - Henry Timms dated circa 1900.
The only other people it could possibly be would be my great great grandfather Edward and grandma Rose. Do they look alike? (obviously about 15-20 years difference in ages in these photos)
They are the only other couple that had two girls of a similar age seperation.
-
Oh my.... the more I look at this the more I am seeing them as the same people. I wonder what others are thinking.
-
That's more like it.
Carol
-
That's more like it.
Carol
x2 ;D
-
Okay well, that was a pleasant revelation :) So now these guys are my 2nd great grand parents Edward and Rose, the girls would be my great grand-aunts.
(thank you all for your input!)
Okay, well getting back to the lapel! haha. Edward was a builder all his life. I wonder if the lapel badge is something to do with building.
-
Mason??
Any chance of a large scan of just the badge?
-
Good evening,
I have searched Religous, charity and masonic pin badges but no luck. But i'm sure I have seen this badge somewhere in the past. Just can't think of in what context.
John915
-
Can I check if they were living in Coventry? You mentioned Coventry in the other thread.
-
Can I check if they were living in Coventry? You mentioned Coventry in the other thread.
Yes Coventry
-
The only other people it could possibly be would be my great great grandfather Edward and grandma Rose. Do they look alike? (obviously about 15-20 years difference in ages in these photos)
They are the only other couple that had two girls of a similar age seperation.
Facial similarities aren't my strong point, but I couldn't help thinking that the men's right ear lobes here (reply #16) are very different.
-
I've looked at as many badges, etc. that I can think of. Regimental badges seem to have a crown above them, Masonic ones usually seem to have the square and compasses somewhere.
It seems to take up quite a large portion of the lapel.
I've enlarged and clarified it as much as I can - I'm having problems with my shoulder so can't do too much with images at the moment.
Maybe someone may recognise it.
Gadget
-
Facial similarities aren't my strong point, but I couldn't help thinking that the men's right ear lobes here (reply #16) are very different.
They are very similar and there is quite an age gap. Ears grow larger with age.
PS - I'm not sure about Rose though. Her chin looks a lot smaller.
-
Facial similarities aren't my strong point, but I couldn't help thinking that the men's right ear lobes here (reply #16) are very different.
They are very similar and there is quite an age gap. Ears grow larger with age.
Hmm - I thought the older man's ear lobe was much more pronounced and rounded. Look at the angle between the lobe and the ear flap: the younger man's is scarcely noticeable, but the older man's lobe is so big as to form almost a right angle. Could such a significant change in shape be down to ageing?
I also think the younger man's ear flap appears to turn over much more at the top (there's probably a better medical term for this), though this could be an effect of the lighting.
-
Yes, I saw that a good while ago, Arthur, as this is the second thread on this person. I think it's either an age, youthful injury (a cauliflower ear was mentioned on the other thread), or with the photo itself (lighting, angle, developing, scanning, etc.) . All other features are more or less identical.
The initial question that the OP posed was to identify the lapel badge. Maybe you might recognise it.
Gadget
-
The initial question that the OP posed was to identify the lapel badge. Maybe you might recognise it.
Oops, got a bit carried away :-[
I don't recognise the badge, but the thing it reminds me most of is an anchor, with a white arc above it and a scroll below. However, I don't know how that might relate to Coventry.
(Alternatively, what I am seeing as the stem/shaft of the anchor might be topped off with a crown :-\ )
-
Thank you friends for all having a look. I've been busy this weekend but in the week I might try and make a drawing of it which might help.
-
Is it possibly a badge of the 11th Hussars? It's hard to tell from the angle, but you can kind of see the scroll at the base, the pillar and then the peacock feathers at the top. The 'feathers' appear wider than on the official cap badge, but this may have been a decorative version, with the curved white top part possibly having the regiment name?
Were there any military connections in the family?
Cheers
Gary
-
That's certainly a possibility, Gary :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:11th_Hussars_Badge.jpg
-
I've just done a quick alteration and removed the white at the top.
Well found, Gary :D
-
Hi guys,
I found another similar style on brittonsbadges.co.uk. So the white crown area could have said Warwickshire perhaps.
I might contact the owner of brittonsbadges to see if he might chime in on it also.
Thank you all this is super interesting detective work :)
-
Is it possibly a badge of the 11th Hussars? It's hard to tell from the angle, but you can kind of see the scroll at the base, the pillar and then the peacock feathers at the top. The 'feathers' appear wider than on the official cap badge, but this may have been a decorative version, with the curved white top part possibly having the regiment name?
Were there any military connections in the family?
Cheers
Gary
Hi Gary - perhaps it could have been this. When searching I cannot seem to find 11th Hussar badges with regiments on top. But I did find the 'Prince Albert's Own Yeomanry' which seemed to just be Leicestershire. Unless there once was a Warwickshire regiment, this seems to be the closest I've found. Thank you for sending me in the right direction.
No military connection besides the usual conscription of the times as far as I know. He would have been 18 in about 1895.
-
Have you checked his WW1 medal card, or other military records.?
-
Have you checked his WW1 medal card, or other military records.?
Hi Gadget could you point me in the right direction, would Ancestry be the only place to find that? As my subscription is currently closed.
-
I've been looking on the competitive site :-X but nothing definite coming up (one a Warwickshire regiment and another Leicestershire) . Quite a few in the destroyed/ burnt records. I think Ancestry might have some but normally they point you to Fold3.
Did he marry Rose in 1903?
It might be worth asking on the WW1 board.
-
I've been looking on the competitive site :-X but nothing definite coming up (one a Warwickshire regiment and another Leicestershire) . Quite a few in the destroyed/ burnt records. I think Ancestry might have some but normally they point you to Fold3.
Did he marry Rose in 1903?
It might be worth asking on the WW1 board.
Yeah 1903, how did you guess? :D Okay I'll ask about, thank you :)
-
The reason that I asked about the marriage date was because they don't seem to fit with having two young daughters circa 1920. I've not been able to find them on the 1921 census as yet. The 1911 shows them with a son and a daughter and there's another daughter born circa 1918 but no others with MMN Win*sor Also, I didn't think that his wife looked like the insert that you labelled as Rose. I think I mentioned this in an earlier post.
My search so far has a daughter b. 1907 and one b 1918. Have I missed any?
Puzzled.
PS - did Edward have a younger brother or a son?
-
Edward Timms 1877-1954 <married-1903> Rose Annie Windsor 1875-1954
Children:
Arthur Edward Timms b1904
Winifred Rosa Timms b1907 --- (I believe the two girls are Wini and Edith due to age difference)
Edith Ada Timms b1911 --------- |
Elsie Maud Timms b1918
Edwards siblings:
William Henry Timms b1872 (had 1x girl b1903 but I have a good photo and sure it's not him)
Albert Ernest Timms b1874 (had 2x girls b1903&b1909 Also have a photo and sure it's not him)
Annie Timms b1881
Amy Timms b1883
-
I made this closer-version comparison. When I look at the eyes for both Edward and Rose I see the same. Especially Edward seems to have a bit of a lazy left eyelid, he obviously put on weight with age and the pose isn't the same unfortunately. I tried to get the head sizes as close as I could. I think Rose may have lost weight with age.
-
Facial similarities aren't my strong point, but I couldn't help thinking that the men's right ear lobes here (reply #16) are very different.
They are very similar and there is quite an age gap. Ears grow larger with age.
Hmm - I thought the older man's ear lobe was much more pronounced and rounded. Look at the angle between the lobe and the ear flap: the younger man's is scarcely noticeable, but the older man's lobe is so big as to form almost a right angle. Could such a significant change in shape be down to ageing?
I also think the younger man's ear flap appears to turn over much more at the top (there's probably a better medical term for this), though this could be an effect of the lighting.
I agree with Arthur.One has lobes,the other doesn't! Nothiong to with age,you're born with one or the other.
-
Facial similarities aren't my strong point, but I couldn't help thinking that the men's right ear lobes here (reply #16) are very different.
They are very similar and there is quite an age gap. Ears grow larger with age.
Hmm - I thought the older man's ear lobe was much more pronounced and rounded. Look at the angle between the lobe and the ear flap: the younger man's is scarcely noticeable, but the older man's lobe is so big as to form almost a right angle. Could such a significant change in shape be down to ageing?
I also think the younger man's ear flap appears to turn over much more at the top (there's probably a better medical term for this), though this could be an effect of the lighting.
I agree with Arthur.One has lobes,the other doesn't! Nothiong to with age,you're born with one or the other.
I did some research on whether earlobes change with age and apparently they do, please see:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-27277582
Especially click play on the video and you'll see massive changes. Even the top ear rim thins with age. So I would say it has a lot to do with age
-
I'll go with that,but,that film show lobes.I believe you either have lobes or not.They don't change.
-
I'll go with that,but,that film show lobes.I believe you either have lobes or not.They don't change.
Mine have.
8)
-
Are you OK, hepburn?
-
The younger man is 3/4 faced. The older man is full faced.
As it is, I'm doubting the identification because of the children's ages and their birth dates. Carol and I have dated the photo as circa 1920, so the children don't fit - they would be approx 13, 10, and 3.
Also, I don't think that the two female pics are the same person.
-
Re earlobes.
My ears are attached but over the years the back parts have grown slightly and can look detached at some angles.
-
The younger man is 3/4 faced. The older man is full faced.
As it is, I'm doubting the identification because of the children's ages and their birth dates. Carol and I have dated the photo as circa 1920, so the children don't fit - they would be approx 13, 10, and 3.
Also, I don't think that the two female pics are the same person.
I am in agreement here and am pretty sure that Gadget and I have the date right for the couple with two children. Have you considered that the bride could be the relation rather than the male line?
Carol
-
The younger man is 3/4 faced. The older man is full faced.
As it is, I'm doubting the identification because of the children's ages and their birth dates. Carol and I have dated the photo as circa 1920, so the children don't fit - they would be approx 13, 10, and 3.
Also, I don't think that the two female pics are the same person.
I am in agreement here and am pretty sure that Gadget and I have the date right for the couple with two children. Have you considered that the bride could be the relation rather than the male line?
Carol
I guess it is possible but the man looks just like Henry Timms (his possible father) and his brothers William/Albert/Edward. He even looks like his sisters Annie and Amy. I'll do a family mock-up tomorrow so you can see.
The image itself came from the living relatives of William. I have a good photo of Williams family I can post too.
Also I was thinking the photo could have been 1915 making it the right time for Winifred & Edith with their age differences. Is there something especially important that changed between 1915 and 1920?
-
If you Google "Men's collar bar" 1920s you will see what we mean. You might also want to consider that the youngest child could be a boy, and yes they did wear dresses and hair bows.
Carol
-
If you Google "Men's collar bar" 1920s you will see what we mean. You might also want to consider that the youngest child could be a boy, and yes they did wear dresses and hair bows.
Carol
Okay thanks I'm getting up to speed (I didn't even know what collar bars were) I did some basic research and it seems collar bars are visible, appearing out from holes on either side of the collar. I don't see this in the photo. Unless he has some special invisible collar bar? Forgive my ignorance :)
-
I believe the two men are not the same. Agree with Arthur about the ears they are different.
Look also at the positioning of the ears, Edward's ears are positioned higher on his face. Cover
the older man's eyes and you can see most of the top of his ears. If you cover Edward's eyes
almost half of his ears are covered leaving only the lower half. Also Edward has a high broad
forhead, the older man has a narrow forehead in spite of his age and possible receding hairline.
Jen.
-
Edwards siblings:
William Henry Timms b1872 (had 1x girl b1903 but I have a good photo and sure it's not him)
Albert Ernest Timms b1874 (had 2x girls b1903&b1909 Also have a photo and sure it's not him)
There was a
William H. Timms in the Leicestershire Yeomanry (as per badge)
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5577945
-
We have said that it is not who the OP thinks it is.
I have checked up on the family in relevant censuses and BMDs and the dates just don't fit with any of the people that the OP has mentioned. The Leicester one that Neale mentions is a possible but William H. was born 1872 and so would be in his mid-late 40s (48 in 1920) . There are, however, some similarities with the man with the ears. I have asked if he (Edward) had sons and, if so,what dates, etc.
I see that the photo was supplied by a relative, probably digitally so all we have to go on to date the photo is the image. The various clothing signs have been discussed. The badge was the initial subject of this topic. However, the date the OP gave for the photo (1887) was way out. Who these people are is still not identified.
The OP asked for a badge identification and I've suggested that he asks on the Armed Forces Board but I don't see a post there so far.
-
A snip of William H Timms from the other thread:
Add - not sure if the two are the same ??
-
I've found a record for a William Timms, b.c. 1885, Leicestershire. WO364 - WW1 Pension Claims
5th Lancers. Service No. 7296.
Maybe a birth record - 11 Jan 1885, Leicester. Parents: Henry and Ann
I'm busy now but it might be worth looking up the full record
Gadget
-
Thanks for all the help, especially interesting if William was registered with the Leicestershire Yeomanry then it surely would have to be him. Here is a photo comparison of all image of William that I have for comparison to the lapel image. What do you all think.
-
Edwards siblings:
William Henry Timms b1872 (had 1x girl b1903 but I have a good photo and sure it's not him)
Albert Ernest Timms b1874 (had 2x girls b1903&b1909 Also have a photo and sure it's not him)
There was a
William H. Timms in the Leicestershire Yeomanry (as per badge)
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5577945
Thank you for this, it has really helped narrow down that this man surely must be William. I didn't even know I could look these up, thank you.
-
This William was even older than Edward!
See my post above:
. The Leicester one that Neale mentions is a possible but William H. was born 1872 and so would be in his mid-late 40s (48 in 1920).
Another one here, which would be nearer the age of the person in the photo (approx 1920-1885 = 35)
I've found a record for a William Timms, b.c. 1885, Leicestershire. WO364 - WW1 Pension Claims
5th Lancers. Service No. 7296.
Maybe a birth record - 11 Jan 1885, Leicester. Parents: Henry and Ann
-
I think this could be his marriage Gadget. Occ. Munitions Worker. But he was born in 1885? maybe a relation but not one of Stormi's :-\
Edit: Removed as not needed.
Carol
-
The baptism that I found in Leicester had his parents as Henry and Ann :-\
How old do people think that the man on the original image ?
I'm dropping out of this now.
-
This William was even older than Edward!
See my post above:
. The Leicester one that Neale mentions is a possible but William H. was born 1872 and so would be in his mid-late 40s (48 in 1920).
Another one here, which would be nearer the age of the person in the photo (approx 1920-1885 = 35)
I've found a record for a William Timms, b.c. 1885, Leicestershire. WO364 - WW1 Pension Claims
5th Lancers. Service No. 7296.
Maybe a birth record - 11 Jan 1885, Leicester. Parents: Henry and Ann
Yes but Gadget, William *was* born in 1972 so that's fine. Plus the Leicestershire Yeomans were the equivilent of the modern-day TA, so they were 'Dads army'. So it fits.
I believe he and his wife are about 50 in the photo.
His parents were Henry and Phoebe. William was born in the outskirts of Coventry, Walsgrave-on-Sowe, but his father Henry was from Leicestershire. (it's very close)
-
I'm done now too.
Carol
-
If you think that it's Edward and Rose and they are about 50, after all the evidence to the contrary, then so be it.
I'm dropping out of this now.
-
If you think that it's Edward and Rose and they are about 50, after all the evidence to the contrary, then so be it.
I'm dropping out of this now.
I think we've got a misunderstanding. I don't think it is Edward and Rose. you convinced me it was William. Right now it looks like it could be William, his wife and grand children in the original picture.
I don't understand why you're all saying 'stepping out' when I'm literally just taking your advice and changing my opinion based on the facts your finding. Sorry if I've been confusing?
I made this picture below, of William, if it is of help?
-
And is there something fundamentally wrong with thinking he was in the TA (Dad's army) during WW1 between the ages of 30-40? He's wearing the lapel badge.. I don't understand why everyones turning so harsh on me.
-
I've found a record for a William Timms, b.c. 1885, Leicestershire. WO364 - WW1 Pension Claims
5th Lancers. Service No. 7296.
-
I've found a record for a William Timms, b.c. 1885, Leicestershire. WO364 - WW1 Pension Claims
5th Lancers. Service No. 7296.
Yes I saw this but William was born in 1872 and he has the lapel badge for the Leicestershire Yeomanry on his collar. Sorry if I'm being clueless I do not understand what you are saying to me :(
By the way I've made this little relationship tree to help you see the siblings and ages:
ps - Annie/Amys husbands look nothing like the man in the picture if you're wondering about it.
-
All I can do is appologise for offending anyone, I don't quite understand what I've done wrong, I was quite enjoying all the detective work along the way.
My conclusion of the thread:
I guess we collectively managed to solve the lapel badge mystery, finding what it was, Leicestershire Yeomanry. We also managed to discover William H was in the Leicestershire Yeomanry (same badge)
But I guess it will have to go down as unsolved for who is actually in the photo. Even though he is wearing the Leicestershire Yeomanry badge (territorial army of the day) And William H is listed as being a member, everyone thinks he looks too young in the photo to have been born in 1872.
The man looks very much like both William and Edward, but as people have pointed out, William seems a little too old and Edward has different ears.
Thank you all for helping me along the way,
Kind regards,
-
I'm coming back on the thread to try to tie this down as I don't like maybes.
You've introduced the possibility of grandchildren for William H.
Can you give information about his occupation; his wife (name and date and place of marriage); his children; any grandchildren (names, and dates of birth).
-
I'm coming back on the thread to try to tie this down as I don't like maybes.
You've introduced the possibility of grandchildren for William H.
Can you give information about his occupation; his wife (name and date and place of marriage); his children; any grandchildren (names, and dates of birth).
Hi Gadget,
Thank you. As far as I know he worked in administration for a car company, Rover I think. Even from the earliest days he was down as being a book-keeper for a store. All his family details will be in the following image. Cheers.
-
Thank you.
It will take me a while to follow them all on census/BMD/etc. I'm sure there are some more people there somewhere.
I see that it looks like an Ancestry tree so I might explore if it's public. Also, I assume the other brothers are listed there.
I've checked and re-checked my dating books and the clothing and style are definitely late 1910s- early 1920s. I even have a photo of my father and his brothers in very early 1920s wearing that type of clothing!
Gadget
-
Oh dear. The pic of Sarah, WH''s wife, doesn't look like the woman in the original photo :-\
-
Oh dear. The pic of Sarah, WH''s wife, doesn't look like the woman in the original photo :-\
Yeah I know :( It's so strange! Yes the tree is public, it is called 'Our Family Tree' by username steventimms. You see - I am in contact with the living descendants of everyone in that other 1900 'Outside the launderette' photo (I tracked everyone down!) This photo was provided by the descendants of Annie Timms, I thought it would be rather normal for her to have a family portrait of one of her brothers. The person who provided it for me did not know who they were and asked me to have a look into it. There is no discerning information on the rear as far as I know.
-
Yes, I found it ;D
The nearest pic that looks like the woman in the images is Georgina Violet Hunt who married Edward's son Arthur, who also has the family likeness. It can't be them as they are too young though.
-
I guess there is another option: Albert Ernest Timms. I don't have a good photo of him and nothing of his wife. He had two girls (I know they may be girls/boys in the photo) but still he seems a bit old, only a few years younger than William. Either way one thing we can agree on is this: whoever it is, has to have been in the Leicestershire Prince Alberts own Yeomanry.
-
I've been looking at those two group photos that show William Henry and using the info to check with census and BMDs. Although it looks the same person, they don't seem to fit - the wife is not the same and his children wouldn't be old enough to have children by that age.
Are you sure that that is him? Do you have anything more on Albert Ernest and his family, including photos? Is there anyone from the other lines who might be a better fit?
I'll continue trying to work things out but .....
-
I've checked his signature on his wedding cert and on the 1911 and they are definitely the same, bu is it him in the photos ?? :-\
-
I've checked his signature on his wedding cert and on the 1911 and they are definitely the same, bu is it him in the photos ?? :-\
Thanks Gadget - I think we can safely leave things here if you don't mind :) I think based on the current information I have it is hard for us to draw any conclusions. The information I have on Albert is next to nothing and his living relative unfortunately doesn't even have photos of her father, let alone second grand father.
I am really pleased we solved the lapel badge mystery & with everything else you've taught me about vintage fashion I'm sure I'll solve the 'mystery man and women' photo sometime, I'll be sure to let you know when I do :)
-
I've just done this for comparison, so I'll put it up anyway ;D
-
By the way Gadget, in the top photo there are some interesting fassions for the kids isn't there? They almost look like medieval play costumes to me, I assume most kids clothes would have been made by the family? I love little Reginald's pose (the youngest child next to mother standing) And I assume these were the general fassions in the pre-1920 era?
-
Very much of the period. The elder girl so much reminds me of a 2nd cousin once removed. (1906-1918) Wrexham. From a group photo sent to me by her nephew in Central America :)
Add -If you could find a service/enlistment record for WHT, that has his signature, then it can be compared with the ones that I've found - marriage and 1911l