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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: antonymark on Thursday 17 March 22 23:32 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
Please could I have some help with this French baptism? I've been bumbling about with snipping and attaching for ages now and I have hopefully attached image.
So far I think it is the baptism of Hannah Elizabeth Alexandrine Macilroy, daughter of Alexandre Macilroy and his wife Elisabeth Reynolds at St Evangile, Paris on 18 April Year??
I am particularly interested in what the line " Irlandais attache ----? service -----? o'connor" might mean.
Thanks in anticipation, Tony.
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Possibly this General O'Connor? If i am reading the birth year as 1809 correctly (which cannot be guaranteed!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_O%27Connor_(United_Irishman)
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If you wish, I can translate when I'm home from work this evening...
Yep, shanreagh, year of birth is 1809.
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Agree with Shanreagh
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If you wish, I can translate when I'm home from work this evening...
Yep, shanreagh, year of birth is 1809.
manukarik - Yes please, that would be wonderful.
shanreagh - Thank you for General O'Connor. That is opening up a whole new direction. From your link I see that "After the revolution he became mayor of Le Bignon-Mirabeu." I think I can read the word 'Bignon' in the top right corner.
roopat - Thanks for confirming 1809 date. This fits with later information for Hannah.
Tony.
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I have been looking for the birth certificate, as the clip you have is a protestant baptism in Paris and Hannah Elisabeth Alexandrine Mac-il-roy wasn't born in Paris ...
No joy yet, but will keep looking! Nothing showing for Bignon, Loiret prior to 1813. :(
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The baptism does mention Bignon and ???? Arrondisst Montargis. Perhaps born there and baptised in Paris?
Perhaps Le Bignon-Mirabeau, arrondissement de Montargis, Loiret, Centre-Val de Loire, France
https://www.mindat.org/loc-349707.html
General O'Connor is described:
Arthur O'Connor.
O'Connor was born near Bandon, County Cork on 4 July 1763 into a wealthy Irish Protestant family.
So a protestant baptism mentioning the relationship of the father, work-wise to a protestant General O'Connor would not be unusual would it?
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Le Bignon changed its name to Le Bignon Mirabeau in 1881. Just going to make a start on translating the baptism now…
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Here's my attempt at a translation of the baptism. Couldn't quite make out the surname of the godfather. Settled on Glasser, but it could be Glassin or something else!
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Hannah Elizabeth Alexandrine born in Bignon, Loiret department, district of Montargis, on the eighteenth of April eighteen hundred and nine, daughter of Alexandre Mac-il-roi, Irish, attaché in the service of Gen. O’Connor, and of Elizabeth Reijnolds, his wife, was baptised on the fifteenth of the following October, and undersigned by Paul-Henri Marron, Minister of the Holy Gospel and Pastor of the Protestants, Paris, Member of the Légion d’Honneur: She had as godfather, Daniel Glasser (?), – and as godmother, her mother.
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Thank you very much Manukarik. That is brilliant.
What a shame that English baptisms of that time didn't include all that lovely extra detail.
Thanks too Roopat and Shanreagh.
Tony.
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Sounds like an exciting project/family to be delving into.....if you know what I mean from one genealogist to another!
:)
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Yes, very exciting and absolutely absorbing.
That's the joy of this isn't it? You just never know where the trail will lead.
Tony.
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Just a quick extra question before I tick as completed.
Does "Attache in the service of Gen. O'Connor" imply a particular role for Alexander or is it just saying that he was part of the staff and could have been doing anything?
Tony.
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From my experience with a couple of family members as Attaches it implies a role, not just on the staff. Air Attache during WW2 from UK to a Commonwealth country and Cultural Attache in 1990s. ETA one was in the Diplomatic Corps and the other had a long military career before and during the war in the UK but was originally from the Commonwealth country to which he was sent.
'An attaché is normally an official, who serves either as a diplomat or as a member of the support staff, under the authority of an ambassador or other head of a diplomatic mission, mostly in intergovernmental organizations or international non-governmental organisations or agencies.'
As I understand it General O'Connor's group was something like a quasi govt or rep in exile.
So an Attache de Servis would have held an important role as an advisor to the General. He may have had experience in the Diplomatic Corps or in protocol or admin matters.
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Thank you Shanreagh.
That's how I thought it looked but didn't want to put two and two together to make five.
I'm now looking more closely at the Paris births and baptisms of Hannah's brothers Alexandre James in 1807 and Bernard Thomas (who is my ancestor) in 1810 to see what they reveal.
I did have Alexander and Elizabeth baptising another son Reynold Charles at St Olave Southwark in 1814 but this Alexander is a labourer.
Will do some more thorough reading around French and Irish history and General O'Connor.
Tony.
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Here are a few links concerning O'Connor
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=general+O%27connor+irlandais+en+france
I am not so sure that Alexandre Macilroy had a high position in society . He is described as "attaché au service du général" which could mean " attached to the service of ..." rather than " occupation= attaché ( diplomatique ...). Early 19 th century and nowadays definitions of " an attaché " are different.
Added :
Bernard Thomas 's birth act says that his father 's occupation was domestic rue grenelle fbg (faubourg) st G ( =Germain ) , his address or his employer's address ?
Born 1 sept 1810, baptized 7 sept , godfather Daniel Glasin rue st Jacques nb ?09, godmother was his mother
Minister was Jacques Antoine Rabaud Pomier
Added:another link, in english
http://www.irishmeninparis.org/revolutionaries/arthur-o-connor
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Yes that reading is correct Joger. Getting my de/au etc mixed up! He could be attached to the general but not an attache. But I don't think it follows that if an attache as we know them that he had a high position in society, remembering the status of the people he was attached to ie quasi govt at best.
Similarly with your reading this does not prevent him from being an educated person, highly regarded by his employer, perhaps even living with him.
That period through the 19th century many parts of Europe had a steady stream of quasi/de facto govts setting themselves up in various countries where they felt their aims & aspirations would be viewed sympathetically.
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Yes that reading is correct Joger. Getting my de/au etc mixed up! He could be attached to the general but not an attache. But I don't think it follows that if an attache as we know them that he had a high position in society, remembering the status of the people he was attached to ie quasi govt at best.
Similarly with your reading this does not prevent him from being an educated person, highly regarded by his employer, perhaps even living with him.
That period through the 19th century many parts of Europe had a steady stream of quasi/de facto govts setting themselves up in various countries where they felt their aims & aspirations would be viewed sympathetically.
[/quote
Absolutely right
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archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMjItMDMtMjMiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6Mzk7czo0OiJyZWYyIjtpOjk3ODE7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=601%2C-304&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=43&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
slide 35/51 Copy and paste the link and enter 35 /51 instead of 1/51
Bernard Thomas 's reconstruted acte de naissance (birth certificate), father 's occupation is " domestique" , like in the baptism certificate . Notice that the name is miswritten (Maritroy), address is 67 rue Grenelle faubourg saint Germain
Some parisian certificates were reconstructed after the fire that burnt the parisian archives at the end of the 19 th century.
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Thanks Joger and Shanreagh for looking at this.
Using Manukarik's translation as a guide to the format of these baptisms I have been using google and half remembered schoolboy French (why didn't I pay more attention at the back? ;D) to attempt a translation of Bernard Thomas' record.
I'd got "Domestique" as a domestic servant or man servant/butler.
Thank you Joger for the links and especially for the dates in September and October and for the addresses which were the bits I was struggling with.
Is having your mother as your godmother unusual?
Rue Grenelle - Very nice.
Rue St Jacques - The oldest street in Paris.
Thanks, Tony.
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Not unusual for a protestant baptism.
This part of Paris is very prestigious, I guess the couple was living in the employer's house. Whoever he was ( general O'Connor or somebody else at that time).
I tried to find out but the numerotation of Paris streets changed several times.
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archives.paris.fr/arkotheque/visionneuse/visionneuse.php?arko=YTo2OntzOjQ6ImRhdGUiO3M6MTA6IjIwMjItMDMtMjMiO3M6MTA6InR5cGVfZm9uZHMiO3M6MTE6ImFya29fc2VyaWVsIjtzOjQ6InJlZjEiO2k6Mzk7czo0OiJyZWYyIjtpOjk3ODE7czoxNjoidmlzaW9ubmV1c2VfaHRtbCI7YjoxO3M6MjE6InZpc2lvbm5ldXNlX2h0bWxfbW9kZSI7czo0OiJwcm9kIjt9#uielem_move=601%2C-304&uielem_islocked=0&uielem_zoom=43&uielem_brightness=0&uielem_contrast=0&uielem_isinverted=0&uielem_rotate=F
slide 35/51 Copy and paste the link and enter 35 /51 instead of 1/51
Bernard Thomas 's reconstruted acte de naissance (birth certificate), father 's occupation is " domestique" , like in the baptism certificate . Notice that the name is miswritten (Maritroy), address is 67 rue Grenelle faubourg saint Germain
Some parisian cetificates were reconstructed after the fire that burnt the parisian archives at the end of the 19 th century.
Thank you Joger,
I'll attempt a look at this.
Added - Got it, thank you ;D
"Maritroy" - Another variation of the Macilroy/McIlroy name. Has to be the name with most variants and mis-transcriptions I have dealt with.
Tony.
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Not unusual for a protestant baptism.
I second that. Some Anglican (ie protestant) christenings I have seen or heard of in my own family, have two of the sex of the child as godparents and one of the other and one of the two was usually the mother or father.
So this female child might have had two female godparents (one being the mother) and another female, and one male godparent.
A male child might have two male godparents (one being the father) and another male, and one female godparent.
Then in several families these other male/females were named as formal Guardians
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Thanks both for the information about baptisms. It makes sense of what looked at first sight to a heathen like me a bit odd. I think R.E. as well as French might not have had my full attention! ;D
An internet search on the two pastors has been revealing. Rabout-Pomier observed the connection between cowpox and smallpox before Edward Jenner. They were awarded the Legion d'Honneur by First Consul Napoleon in 1804 and received this honour from his own hands and were invited to his coronation as Emperor.
Thanks again for all the help, Tony.
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Hi again,
Please could this line be looked at? I think it should reveal the baptism date of Bernard Thomas Macilroy.
I think I have got so far:
-?- seventh -?- -?- month -?- of October -?- year
Thanks, Tony.
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I already translated that page 2 : born 1 september , baptized 7 september.
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Thanks Joger,
I'm sorry for going back to this. I know you had already given dates and gone above and beyond by finding the birth certificate which I could never have done. I must seem like a dog with a bone. I am very grateful for everyone's help and patience.
It's just that my eye keeps falling on what looks like "d'octobre" floating above the line and ^ arrowed in between "mois" and "meme annu".
Thanks again, Tony.
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You are welcome .
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DBR9-52D?i=223&cc=1582585&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AFGM5-SBS
What is written is : Bernard Thomas born in Paris Seine department,1 september, son of Alexandre Macilroy and Elisabeth Reynolds , his wife ,
domestique rue grenelle 67 faubourg st G,
was baptized on the 7 th of the same month arrow d'octobre , same year ...
So Bernard Thomas was baptized 5 weeks after his birth, which is coherent with his being protestant, and with the date on the preceding certificate ( 28 september).
My apologies if I previously said baptized on the 7th september.
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Thanks again Joger,
That is brilliant.
What a lot has come tumbling out of those baptisms! Ordering it all in my mind now and reading around the people and events of the time.
Best wishes, Tony.