RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: MeirSoul on Thursday 17 March 22 13:44 GMT (UK)
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I have found what appears to be Gypsy or Traveller ancestors in the 1800s but they seemed to of lived in houses. Their occupations and surnames and way of life point to traveller origins and they seemed to of all lived together in the same street . My question is was it common for gypsies to have settled by the 1800s and apart from the obvious (being born in Ireland) is there a way to distinguish Irish Travellers from Romany Gypsies.
Thanks
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When in the 1800s - is this Census entries? The Census was usually taken early in the year, before the travelling season started, so some Travellers may have been in houses at that time but then set off on their annual circuit shortly afterwards.
Might be useful to give us an example so we could have a look and see what we think.
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When in the 1800s - is this Census entries? The Census was usually taken early in the year, before the travelling season started, so some Travellers may have been in houses at that time but then set off on their annual circuit shortly afterwards.
Might be useful to give us an example so we could have a look and see what we think.
Throughout the 1800s.
For example . William Hodgkinson. Born 1781 in Dudley . Married Elizabeth Mear in Lichfield and is showing in the 1851 census as living in a house on Smithy Lane in Uttoxeter. Occupation, Besom maker
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As you know, the census is only a snapshot of one night in ten years. There could be any number of reasons they were living in a house.
It might help if you follow each family through each census and consider things such as:
Are they always living in a house?
Is it the same (or a nearby) address every census?
Are they living as a family or boarding with/visiting someone else? If they are staying with someone who is not family, have you followed them to see where that leads?
Have you traced the children in case their addresses or occupations give you any clues?
There are probably other pointers you can look for.
Added: I found William in the 1851 census. He looks quite settled there in Smithy Lane. I wasn’t sure which was your William in the 1841.
If they were settled in one area perhaps they weren’t travellers/gipsys at all?
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The author of the website listed below has researched Hodgkinson Gypsy families in Uttoxeter who were besom makers:
https://www.garenewing.co.uk/family/hodgkins.html
Tony
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As you know, the census is only a snapshot of one night in ten years. There could be any number of reasons they were living in a house.
It might help if you follow each family through each census and consider things such as:
Are they always living in a house?
Is it the same (or a nearby) address every census?
Are they living as a family or boarding with/visiting someone else? If they are staying with someone who is not family, have you followed them to see where that leads?
Have you traced the children in case their addresses or occupations give you any clues?
There are probably other pointers you can look for.
Added: I found William in the 1851 census. He looks quite settled there in Smithy Lane. I wasn’t sure which was your William in the 1841.
If they were settled in one area perhaps they weren’t travellers/gipsys at all?
Yea same goes for the Neild line which also seems to be quite settled , again in Smithy lane .
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The author of the website listed below has researched Hodgkinson Gypsy families in Uttoxeter who were besom makers:
https://www.garenewing.co.uk/family/hodgkins.html
Tony
I've seen this before . I'm almost certain they were gypsies/travellers due to the other research that I have done and Smithy lane appears to be some sort of gypsy community. I'm just curious as to why they'd be so "settled" in the same street . Unless as the poster above suggested they weren't gyspy/travellers at all ???
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My understanding of travellers and the census, is that until 1871, travellers tended not to be included, as the census focused on those living in houses. In 1841 the census was taken on 6 June, in 1851 it was 30 March, and in 1861 it was 7th April. Being early in the year, it could be before they started travelling, having spent winter in a house. Another issue could be illness, especially a child, where some remained in a house while the rest travelled. Finally, they tended to have large families and then not all travelled. Within your grouping, some could be land-based, but they would be welcoming to their traveller relatives. Finding earlier travellers can be very difficult.
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I haven’t made any observations regarding information on specific censuses (pre or post 1871), but I have heard of travellers/gypsies on censuses recorded as living in caravans or in fields.
Similarly, people living in barns and barges and other non permanent accomodation are also on various censuses.
It would be interesting to know what others have found regarding travellers not living in houses being recorded on censuses or not. :)
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Hi Ruskie,
My ancestors were Gypsies. My great great grandparents, in the 1861 Census are listed as living in a Tent. Also in the 1891 Census, one of their married daughters is on the Census, living in a caravan on the Epson Downs. The Census lists a number of families living in Caravans and for some of the families the occupation is provided as Travelling Gypsies.
Regards Kaybron
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That’s interesting Kaybron. :)
I have no traveller/gypsy ancestors myself, but have read threads which mention similar examples to yours.
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The 1861 census shows an ancestor of mine, Nathali Smith with three sons, three daughters and his sister-in-law listed entered as 'Parish of Granby, Leicestershire. List of persons not in houses. Barkestone Road in tents'.
An old thread I know, but may be of some inter est.
Ashjo.
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The 1861 census shows an ancestor of mine, Nathali Smith with three sons, three daughters and his sister-in-law listed entered as 'Parish of Granby, Leicestershire. List of persons not in houses. Barkestone Road in tents'.
An old thread I know, but may be of some inter est.
Ashjo.
Were they gypsies in houses ?
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Yes they were Gypsies. The post was in response to a question as to whether census returns only covered people in houses. The Napthali referred to died in 1865, but by 1871 his children were listed in that years census as living in Little London, Melton Mowbray.
Ashjo.
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Re my previous perhaps it should have read 'Yes they were Gypsies and at the time of the census were living in tents, not in houses.'
Ashjo.
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Has anyone got examples of Romanis in houses??My ancestors lived in houses and travelled. I'm sure it was quite common to do both.
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Has anyone got examples of Romanis in houses??My ancestors lived in houses and travelled. I'm sure it was quite common to do both.
Plenty do these days. And from the research I've done since creating this thread it seems to of not been out of the ordinary back then neither. Smithy Lane in Uttoxeter was a street that was basically a gypsy camp .
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I have seen this in my husbands tree early 1800s in these cases they tended to be agricultural labourers so lived on the farm, probably in a barn or such. He is Romany.
The descendant I was tracing lived exclusively in tents or gipsy caravans after leaving the family which would suggest a history of travelling despite this not showing on the prior censuses. She also married another gipsy. It would have been very uncommon in those times to marry outside the community.
They also came up in different county's on each census - Berkshire, Hampshire, Wiltshire suggesting they were travelling.
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We had thought that some of my Mother's ancestors were travellers/Gypsies but on further investigation discovered that they were agricultural labourers who were employed by different farmers on a circular route of roughly 25/30 miles through 3 counties, as specific crops were ready to plant/harvest etc in different seasons. They seem to have followed roughly the same route and worked for the same farmers in each area. Births were registered wherever they were working at the time and they stayed wherever they could, sometimes in houses with settled family who had found permanent work and others under canvas or in sheds/barns. During the winter months they would return home to their own town.
This has made tracing ancestors very difficult, especially as they tended to marry within their own circle and some of the children, born around the same time, would also have the same first and surnames.
Is it possible that the relatives you visited were of the same kind of background ?
Linda
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In early 1960s I had a boyfriend who worked on a farm and each summer he would be sent to a farm further north to assist with harvesting bumper crops. I can't recall him spending more than three weeks away from home.
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Yes, Rena, you are quite right and in the area in which I live this still happens, but the distances are easier to cover now. So a 20 mile journey by car is a no more than half an hour.
The period in time my reply refers to is the from the 1700's to mid 1900's, so as there were no cars and agricultural workers would not have had horses, it would have made sense to move around with the job. A much harder life than we can possibly imagine today.
From the mid 1920's to the late 1950's my Mother and later my sisters all worked for local farmers through the seasons. picking potatoes/peas/carrots or whatever was ready at the time. Being 20 odd years younger than my sisters I mostly avoided this back breaking work. In the beginning they had to make their own way to whichever fields they were working in, by bicycle usually, but after WW2 the farmers would collect them with tractor and trailer or sometimes a horse/animal box. In both they would be seated on hay bales (if they were lucky). I remember as a child being taken along during school holidays and the days seemed really long. My Mum was the Ganger for most of this time and organised the women as and when needed. I presume this occupation was followed because of Mum's agricultural ancestry background and her knowledge of the local farmers.
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Large estate owners also owned wagons pulled by horses. That's how several farm workers and their families moved about.
Depending on what type of land and how small or large the farm was, in some areas of the UK sheep and cattle would have a season up in the higher pastures and some seasons down in the valleys.
It wasn't only Heidi and Peter that moved the flock about :D
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We had thought that some of my Mother's ancestors were travellers/Gypsies but on further investigation discovered that they were agricultural labourers who were employed by different farmers on a circular route of roughly 25/30 miles through 3 counties, as specific crops were ready to plant/harvest etc in different seasons. They seem to have followed roughly the same route and worked for the same farmers in each area. Births were registered wherever they were working at the time and they stayed wherever they could, sometimes in houses with settled family who had found permanent work and others under canvas or in sheds/barns. During the winter months they would return home to their own town.
This has made tracing ancestors very difficult, especially as they tended to marry within their own circle and some of the children, born around the same time, would also have the same first and surnames.
Is it possible that the relatives you visited were of the same kind of background ?
Linda
Yes quite possibly in some cases . Although since creating this thread I have discovered Boswells ancestors living amongst them in the same street and also living in tents with occupations described as "tinker" and "gipser" respectively