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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: uksouthafrica on Wednesday 16 March 22 20:57 GMT (UK)
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Paternal grandfather Frederick Batchelor (born in Hull 1871) married Elizabeth Emily Burgess in Hull, Yorkshire East Riding June 1897. I’d like to know when they came to South Africa where my father Frederick Warren Batchelor (2 birth certificates one listed as Batchelder) and his older brother Edward were born in Cape Town. I’d be so grateful for information about my grandparents.
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Here they are in 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7T9-3M3
Looks like they went out sometime between Dennis and Joseph being born, so c 1904
Added: just to note, although Frederick's dob differs from your post, this is them as the English born children have mother's maiden name Burgess
I've just realised I have neither of the children you mention, so were they born after 1911, or do we have the wrong names for the parents?
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Fred departed London for Capetown on 8 April 1903. No other family members with him. Dennis' birth was registered July-Sept 1903, so Elizabeth and the others must have followed on later
think I have them: 27 Feb 1904 on the SS German from Southampton. Mrs E Batchelor, aged 27, Master H aged 2 and Master D aged 1
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And coming back (although the children don't fit!). Arrived January 1907 in Southampton from Capetown on the Dover Castle
Mr F (bricklayer) and Mrs E, aged 30. Miss W aged 4, Master HD aged 2 and Master DH aged 1 (born in South Africa)
Amended
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I am definitely doubting this is the right family. There were two more children. Frederick Douglas in 1912 and Sylvia in 1915. The family are still in Hull in 1921 and 1939
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is this your father's baptism? If so, you have incorrect information about his parents
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DPM3-QW2M
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Going on from Mabel's post above .....
Did your father Frederick Warren BATCHELDER marry Christina Johanna CONRADIE in Capetown in 1940?
Did Frederick Warren BATCHELDER die on 28 Oct 1961 ? - and his occupation was a clerk in provincial administration?
If that is correct, then his birth was 31 Jan 1906 to parents Arthur and Sophia Margaret BATCHELDER.
His father Arthur BATCHELDER died Capetown 29 Jan 1922. Occupation - shoemaker, age 67
Born abt 1855, Birthplace England
Added: This Frederick Warren also had a sister - Elizabeth Naomi Batchelder born 17 May 1903
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Deleted. Duplicated
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I wonder if this is the brother - named Edward James BATCHELDER born about 1902, and he died in 1963. I did not see a baptism record for him in Sth Africa, but his d.o.b. is given as 5 July 1902 on his death cert.
He was a clerk in the post office. Edward married Ruth Elizabeth TRAUTMANN (formerly DOWLING) in 1939 Cape town.
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In light of those names there is this family. Which could of course be just co-incidental
1871 census
3 Cold Bath Square, St James, Clerkenwell
Naomi Batchelder head widow 52. Waistcoat maker born Southend Essex
Elizabeth N. Batchelder 21 daughter, b London, Middlesex
Frederick Batchelder 19, son, porter. b Willesden, Middlesex
Arthur Batchelder 17, son, compositor, b Southwark, Surrey
Willliam Batchelder, 15, son, Warehouse worker, b Southwark, Surrey
Births that fit that census are
BATCHELOR, Elizabeth Neaoma. MMN WARREN. 1850, March, Marylebone, vol 01. page 215
BATCHELDER Frederick John, MMN WARREN 1851 D qtr, Hendon, vol 03 , page 272
BATCHELDER Asher MMN WARREN. 1853, D qtr, St Saviour, vol 01D, page 22. **
BATCHELDER William James MMN WARREN. 1855 D qtr St Saviour Vol 01D page 4
Is Asher = Arthur?
so a marriage that fits is
James BATCHELDER
Naomi WARREN. St Geo Han Sq 1/33/Dec 1850
5 December 1850,
James Batchelder, full age, bachelor, servant, Grosvenor Street, father James Batchelder, Farmer
Naomi Warren, full age, spinster, Grosvenor Street, father William Warren, Gardener
All sign
Witnesses Charles Walden and Elizabeth Warren
1881
28 Gloucester St, St George Martyr
Naomi Batchelder 62, Mother, Waistcoat maker, born Prittlewell, Essex
Elizabeth 30 , waistcoat maker b Marylebone, Middx.
Possible death for Naomi 1889 age 74. St Giles, vol 01B page 317
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1861
14 Kenton St, St Giles
Naomi BATCHELER widow. 45, Mangler All born London
Elizabeth 11
Frederick 9
Asia 7
William 5
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Thank you to all who assisted but I don’t think these families fit. My father’s birth certificate states dob 21 Jan 1906 Lever Street Woodstock, Cape Town. Father Frederick Batchelor England; Mother Elizabeth Emily Burgess England.
I found Frederick Batchelor in GRO Marriage Ja, Feb and March 1987 Hull, volume 9d, page 387
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Are you able to provide more information, please.
Who did your father marry, where and when? Do you have his marriage certificate?
Where and when did your father die? What was his occupation?
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Father: Frederick Warren Batchelor (spelt Batchelder in some documents) born in Cape Town 21.6.1906 to British parents: Elizabeth Emily Burgess & Frederick Batchelor. The latter married in district Hull, March 1897, vol 9d, page 387. Frederick Batchelor born in Hull June 1871, vol 9d, page 237. I’m assuming they are my grandparents. No info on their deaths. I’m assuming he was in Lord Kitcheners army in SA. My father Frederick Warren (Batchelor) married Christina Johanna Petronella Conradie 21.9.1940 in Cape Town & died as Frederick Warren Batchelder on 28.10.1962 in Cape Town. He went to war as a Cape Highlander.
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Excuse these questions, but I just want to be clear.
1. I assume the birth certificate is an actual S.A. Registry office document?
2. Does it name Frederick Warren or is he just recorded as a “male”.
3. When was it issued? I.e. was it obtained later in his life? It should have a date of issue on it.
Reason for asking:-
The family in reply 1, who I am sure are the Frederick Batchelor/Emily Burgess couple
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7T9-3M3
Have a son Joseph Henry Kirk Batchelor. Born Cape Colony.
At age 33 he gives his date of birth as 26 January 1906. When he died his DoB is given as 21 July 1906. Some people abbreviate January as Jan’y or other version ending in y and I have seen it where it is hard to distinguish from July.
I cannot help wondering if there has been a muddle up somewhere
I have a suspicion that Joseph’s name may not have been set in concrete until 1907 because the marriage certificate of Frederick and Elizabeth Emily has been annotated
Originally it had Frederick’s father as William, and his occupation as Blacksmith
But the annotation dated 25 Jan 1907 says
“In Col 7 omit William Batchelor and insert Joseph John Kirk. And in Col 8 omit Blacksmith and insert Brick maker”
Signed by the curate in charge on 25 Jan 1907
I cannot help wondering if Frederick Warren (or someone else) applied for his birth certificate and was given the wrong one!
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If you look back at my posts early on in this thread, they travelled out in 1903 and 1904 (father first, mother and kids later) and back in 1907, so Fred snr was not part of the army. My guess is that as he's listed as a bricklayer working for a railway company, he went out to work on a railway construction project for a few years
My worry about Frederick Warren being an alternative name for Joseph is that the Hull family have another Frederick, born in 1912. Both keep that name in later censuses
Also, how certain are you about a brother called Edward? Is this an assumption from the Bachelder records in South Africa? There's no Edward in the Hull family
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No I don’t think Frederick is an Alternative for Joseph.
I think they are two different people
But that Frederick was issued the wrong birth certificate, because I am assuming that Joseph’s birth certificate says “Male”
Added, and Joseph can be followed in England until his death
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Father: Frederick Warren Batchelor (spelt Batchelder in some documents) born in Cape Town 21.6.1906 to British parents: Elizabeth Emily Burgess & Frederick Batchelor. The latter married in district Hull, March 1897, vol 9d, page 387. Frederick Batchelor born in Hull June 1871, vol 9d, page 237. I’m assuming they are my grandparents. No info on their deaths. I’m assuming he was in Lord Kitcheners army in SA. My father Frederick Warren (Batchelor) married Christina Johanna Petronella Conradie 21.9.1940 in Cape Town & died as Frederick Warren Batchelder on 28.10.1962 in Cape Town. He went to war as a Cape Highlander.
According to the various records Frederick who marries Elizabeth Emily was born in c1877 not 1871
The most likely birth registration is in Q4 1876, with no mother's maiden name. He's with William the blacksmith and wife Mary in 1881 and 1891. William and Mary are old enough to have a daughter in her 20s in 1881, who might be Frederick snr's mother, with Mr Kirk the father. That might explain the marriage cert name changes
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No I don’t think Frederick is an Alternative for Joseph.
I think they are two different people
But that Frederick was issued the wrong birth certificate, because I am assuming that Joseph’s birth certificate says “Male”
Added, and Joseph can be followed in England until his death
I too think they are different, but I am confused as uksouthafrica would obviously know their father was called Frederick Warren, but the Hull family's child born in S Africa in 1907 is never known as Frederick, and his stated parents have another younger son called Frederick
OK - are you suggesting that uksouthafrica's father is the son of Arthur and Sophia, but was given an incorrect birth cert with Fred and Elizabeth's details?
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My father Frederick Warren (Batchelor) married Christina Johanna Petronella Conradie 21.9.1940 in Cape Town & died as Frederick Warren Batchelder on 28.10.1962 in Cape Town.
He married as Batchelder
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9MW-FQ9C?i=185&cc=1935348&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQ23Q-8RT1
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OK - are you suggesting that uksouthafrica's father is the son of Arthur and Sophia, but was given an incorrect birth cert with Fred and Elizabeth's details?
Yes :). Because, they were born. If not on the same day, at least only days apart.
Batchelor v Batchelder. Someone searching came across the Batchelor one first, and because it didn’t actually have his name on, assumed it was the correct one.
Of course that theory will be upset if the birth certificate DOES have his name on it!
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I too think they are different, but I am confused as uksouthafrica would obviously know their father was called Frederick Warren, but the Hull family's child born in S Africa in 1907 is never known as Frederick, and his stated parents have another younger son called Frederick
Also, Frederick Warren obviously spent his life in South Africa, and the Hull family just had the brief couple of years there, and then spent the rest of their lives in England. It just doesn’t make sense for Frederick Warren to be their son.
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The other interesting thing is there's a Sydney Warren Bachelder b 1887 in South Africa. Father Arthur, a compositor, mother Catherine nee Blomstein
Frederick and Elizabeth Naomi are baptised as adults, after their father's death. I wonder if Arthur and Sophia weren't married and they, and Edward, are actually registered under another surname? Might explain Frederick being given a birth cert for the nearest name to Bachelder, what he thinks would be his birth surname
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Just about to type the very same thing.
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Here's the death of wife no 1: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7TSL-WRMM
The form of her name might suggest they divorced
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Re the Adult baptisms.
Elizabeth Naomi’s was the day before her death
Burial, address is the same
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPH7-SCJJ
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Another child- Catherine Sarah b 1890. Father Arthur Asher
I can also see a Harold Asher Bachelder b c1893
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Elizabeth was recorded as Mixed race
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-G5FZ-95?i=461&cc=1779109&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AWZHT-1J2M
Added.
Where as Frederick Warren was recorded as White
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91V-9796-2?cc=3732506&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AD8G8-JGMM
Modified to add Frederick here
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Frederick Warren when he died, was recorded born 31 Jan 1906
Frederick Warren when baptised, was recorded born 31 Jan 1906
Frederick on unsighted birth certificate, was recorded born 21 Jan 1906.
To my thinking, there is a date recorded incorrectly or remembered incorrectly.
There is surely something a-miss with the document being called Frederick’s “birth registration.”
We really need to know more about it.
I wonder if it could be scanned and posted.
The questions in reply #14 by mckha489 need to be answered.
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A summary
Arthur Asher BATCHELDER (Compositor) married Catherine Sarah Van BLOMMSTEIN (age 20 ½ ) on 20 July 1885 in Cape Town, Baptist chapel.
Note: this marriage seems to have finished / divorced, and Catherine remarried / or took another partner named BRIDGES
- Arthur Batchelder died Cape Town 29 Jan 1922, age 67
- Catherine Bloomstein-Batchelder-Bridges died Jo-burg 11 Nov 1923, age 56
Children of Arthur BATCHELDER and Catherine BLOMSTEIN
• Alpha Arthur BATCHELDER born 1885 (no baptism record found) – married 1904 Cape Town to Keturah Elizabeth FOX (on marriage his mother is named Catherine Bridges)
• Sydney Warren BATCHELDER born 20 Aug 1887 Cape Town (yes, bapt record) address Vandelein St
• Catherine Naomi BATCHELDER bapt 22 Oct 1890 Cape Town (yes, bapt record) address Mowbray
• Harold Asher BATCHELDER born 1893 (no baptism record found) – married 1921 Jo-Burg to Violet Kathleen BOYETT
• Edward James BATCHELDER born 5 July 1902 (no baptism record found, name of mother unknown) – married 1939 Cape Town to Ruth Elizabeth TRAUTMANN / DOWLING
Children of Arthur Batchelder and Sophia Margaret SURNAME UNKNOWN 17 Wicht St
• Elizabeth Naomi Batchelder (mixed race) born 17 May 1903, bapt in 1922 ; died 1922.
• Frederick Warren Batchelder born 31 Jan 1906, bapt in 1922 – married 1940 to Christina Johanna Petronella CONRADIE
This appears to be the correct family, but at some point there has been confusion with another family called BATCHELOR possibly resulting in an error in records.
This theory has been outlined by mckha489.
We await information and answers about the birth registration of Frederick Warren BATCHELDER
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Many thanks to all. How do I attach documents?
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I hope this works - documents attached
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Docs 2 & 3
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Docs 4 & 5
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Docs 6 & 7
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Docs 8 & 9
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Docs 10 & 11
Children of Frederick Batchelor/Batcherlor/Batchelder & Christina Johanna Petronella [nee Conradie]:
DWB born 12 Sept 1946
AB born 30 September 1948
UB born 31 March 1951
Moderator comment: Names of potentially living people removed in accordance with our policies
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Thank you very much.
Your father was handsome, wasn’t he.
It is Rootschat policy not to name living people , so you should modify that post to remove the full names of yourself and your siblings.
Would it be possible to redo the 3rd birth cert, please? Doc 7. The typed one that cost 2/6. It is too blurry to read with confidence.
Or if not can you please read and convey the “entry number”. On the last line before the sign off.
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Hi uksouthafrica,
I have not contributed to this thread, but have been watching it with great interest.
So pleased that you have sent the documents for us to evaluate.
They are a bit tricky to read and I wanted to offer a little tip which I have found very useful.
In your iphone (assumption here ;D) in the notes app which is built in, there is an option to scan documents. In my experience the results are reasonably sharp and legible.
Just a thought for you.
Sue
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Sorry, I am unable to read the birth certificates as they are too blurry and small.
I think the clue to unravelling the problem is with the birth records, so hopefully you will be able to try again for a better scan, or alternatively type out all the detail.
Added - if you post again, remember to change the name of the scan. You cannot upload with the same file name.
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I think I can make out just enough to suggest the male child on the birth certificate was unnamed .
That is name "not stated '
I don't know why that is in red.
It does look as if someone has applied for the certificate of Frederick and been given the one that pertains to Joseph. Per the theory developed above. (Near enough is good enough philosophy ???)
Perhaps the certificate for Frederick was requested after his death??
Otherwise he would have contradicted the facts surely.
Sue
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As there has been no reply from “uksouthafrica’, it seems there might be a difficulty with obtaining a clear scan of the relevant birth documents.
In order to progress this thread further, I offer the following …..
The problem appears to be due to confusion between 2 different families.
One has the surname BATCHELDER; the other is BATCHELOR.
It is important to note the different spelling, and to be aware that when saying the two names, they sound very similar.
The wrong family is BATCHELOR. They came from Hull in England (parents Frederick and Elizabeth nee Burgess)
They were in South Africa for a short period between Feb 1904 and Jan 1907. They returned to England with their children and remained there.
They did not have a son named Edward.
They had a son named Frederick Douglas (not Frederick Warren) born in 1912 England.
They had a son born Jan 1906 in Sth Africa who was later named Joseph, but whose birth may have been registered with an unknown first name.
It is not possible for this to be the correct family.
__________
The correct family is BATCHELDER. Arthur Asher BATCHELDER (a compositor) came from London to Cape Town, South Africa in the early 1880s, and married in Sth Africa, and died there.
He had a family of at least 7 born in South Africa (to two different “wives”), including your father Frederick Warren, and his brother Edward – who appear to have been the issue of Arthur & his second “wife” Sophia.
This family and descendants remained in South Africa, married and had their own families in Sth Africa.
Your father was named Frederick Warren BATCHELDER on his death certificate, with birth of 31 Jan 1906
Your father was named Frederick Warren BATCHELDER on his marriage
Your father was named Frederick Warren BATCHELDER on his 1922 baptism, with birth of 31 Jan 1906
You should be looking for a birth certificate with the same name with his birth at 31 Jan 1906
_____________
At some point when acquiring Frederick Warren’s birth certificate, an error has been made, possibly because the surnames have been mis-heard and confused.
The birth record under the name BATCHELOR without a forename will be wrong.
The birth record for Joseph will also be wrong.
Without being able to see clearly the birth registrations that you have, it is not possible to know what exactly the error is, but it is possible to guess.
I draw your attention to the unanswered questions in reply # 14 of this thread.
You will need to exam with care, the birth records that you have, and look at all detail, to work out the problem.
______________________________
______________________________
In the National Archives of South Africa there are the following documents regarding your family, which may be of further interest to you:
• Date 1885 ARTHUR BATCHELDER. REQUESTING EMPLOYMENT.
• Date 1894 MOTION. PETITION OF CATHERINE BATCHELDER (BORN VAN BLOMMESTEIN) TO SUE HER HUSBAND ARTHUR BATCHELDER IN FORMA PAUPERIS FOR JUDICIAL SEPARATION.
Edited after posting.
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Hello everybody
I am most grateful to each of you for your assistance.
We have had a family crisis, sorry about the delay.
I have now scanned all the birth certificates and dates of extraction as 1), 2) and 3a) & 3b). The sizes are too large so I am trying to figure out how to decrease these. The transcribers had Afrikaans names - not sure if that is the reason for the discrepancies. All certificates except 1) were extracted post-humously.
I am not sure why father Frederick Warren and his brother Edward (Ted) used Batchelder - perhaps the war got in the way.
Hopefully I can reduce the size of the attachments.
So long for now.
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PS - after the war Father suffered from shell shock and had a number of strokes after 1951 so life was difficult.
Sending in batches.
Kind regards
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... we never met our paternal grandparents but my cousin has given me a photograph of our grandmother but no details.
I know it sounds absurd to be so vague - but as a family we just tried to survive. Now I have the time to find out where my roots are ...
My brother DWB passed away in 2012.
Kind regards
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Been following with interest
Frederick Warren BATCHELDOR was a handsome man
It's easy to see how someone could have obtained wrong birth certificate.
I'm just wondering now that the two families have been unravelled .is the cousin who sent you a picture of the grandmother the wrong cousin and the wrong grandma
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Yes, thank you. He was. I was 3 weeks old when he had a severe stroke and never spoke again until he died when I was 12. We all went to Robben Island in 1955 so Mom could work as a Nursing Sister and support all of us.
No, it was the correct cousin and my next step is to reconnect with her (J) and her brother. I wanted more info before I met up with them again. Their older brother who had their father's name had died a few years ago.
Kind regards
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Hello again uksouthafrica. Thanks for providing the new scans of the birth records which are nice and clear. While there is some time needed to consider these records, it might be helpful if you could provide information about the cousin you mention in your last post.
Who was the older brother (now deceased) who had their father’s name?
Which member of the Batchelder family does this cousin descend from?
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I am not sure why father Frederick Warren and his brother Edward (Ted) used Batchelder - perhaps the war got in the way.
Because that was their name.
It was their father's surname.
Arthur BATCHELDER whose mother was nee WARREN
Sue
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As far as I can ascertain from the information supplied, in August 1997, Ms U. Batchelder-K applied for her father’s birth certificate and received certificate No. 201077.
Due to a spelling error in the surname, a corrected copy was requested, and in September 1997 corrected certificate No.496408 was issued.
This certificate is Entry No. 259/1906. It is for a male child; surname BATCHELOR; NO CHRISTIAN NAME; born 21 Jan 1906, Woodstock.
Now looking at the older birth certificate No.66774, issued in December 1942, we see that it is the exact same Entry No. 259/06. It should therefore contain the exact same information, BUT it does NOT - half of the information is different.
We now have the different surname BATCHELDER, and we have the added Christian names FREDERICK WARREN.
The date of birth, and the place of birth remain the same however.
This certificate does not give the names of parents. If it had done so, Frederick (alive in 1942, and before ill-health) would have immediately picked up the error. As it was, he probably didn’t care too much that the printed date of birth was just 10 days out.
I suspect that there was sloppy work (a clerical error) made, either right back in 1906 upon registration, or by the registrar in 1942 when issuing the certificate. It has also been suggested to me that there may have been an attempted cover-up for this sloppiness on the part of registry clerical staff who possibly did not care to be contradicted.
Since the birth dates for “Nameless BATCHELOR” and “Frederick Warren BATCHELDER” only differ by 1 digit (21-01-1906 AND 31-01-1906), they possibly followed each other in the entry book. A cleric seeing the two entries believed they were for the same person because both the surname and birth date were almost identical, and the careless cleric has combined information from 2 different entries, into 1 birth certificate.
I believe information on certificate No.496408, issued in Sept 1997 is correct, however this is for the un-named child of the BATCHELOR family from Hull, England. This is the wrong family (as demonstrated previously). It is NOT the certificate for your father, Frederick Warren BATCHELDER, son of Arthur Asher BATCHELDER and Sophie Margaret.
In 1997, Ms U. Batchelder-K may have assumed the birth date from the old 1942 certificate was correct, and quoted that date when applying for her father’s birth certificate. Thus she has ended up with the birth certificate for the wrong person.
Had she applied for the birth certificate of Frederick Warren BATCHELDER born 31-01-1906, she may have received a different certificate.
I hypothesise that there is the correct birth record still out there to find, and consultation by phone with the SA registry office might be necessary. Note the spelling of the surname, and the date of birth on Frederick Warren BATCHELDER’s death certificate – which (at a later date and in a different hand) has been annotated as “correct” – almost as if it has been checked against other documentation. Death cert snip posted below.
For additional verification, it might be prudent to obtain the birth certificate for Frederick’s sister who died in 1922 -- Elizabeth Naomi BATCHELDER born 17 May 1903. We know from the baptism register that she had the same father (Arthur) and mother (Sophia) as Frederick Warren.
The birth certificate for brother Edward James BATCHELDER would also be of interest to you. As we don’t have a baptism record for him, we cannot be so certain that his mother was also Sophia. You may well find he was the child from another partner.
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I would support Neale's theory above. 1942 war time may have meant staff shortages and have had other negative impacts on the department of civil registration's functioning .
uksouthafrica,
Would you like to post the photo of your grandmother as given to you by your cousin?
It may be of interest to all.
No pressure, just up to you. :D
Sue
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Reply to Neale #47
Thank you.
My deceased first cousin was Edward Batchelder, son of my father's brother, Edward (Ted) Batchelder.
Neither of my deceased Uncle Ted's living children (my first cousins) J (daughter) and P (son) wish to pursue their family history. I respect that so I will only follow up on my father (Frederick Warren Batchelder). Or if I come across anything to do with Uncle Ted I will not notify them. Is that acceptable?
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Hello Sue (Sparrett)
I will attach a photograph of my paternal Grandmother. I don't know her first name.
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Black and white photograph of my paternal Grandmother (mother of Edward, oldest son & my father Frederick Warren).
I also found my father's 1956 ID (he would have been 50)
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Response to Neale reply #49
I am most grateful for your thorough analysis of my uncertain ancestry. I am in shock - to think that I may have been following the completely wrong lead! I have a lot of following up to do so you may not hear from me for a while.
I tried telephoning the Department of Home Affairs in Cape Town - no answer. Then I tried the National Archives and was directed back to CT Home Affairs. We now have 11 official languages, nevertheless I am going to persevere.
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I am attaching a brief Batchelder family chart to help with your family research.
It is interesting to see where the name Warren comes from, and how it passes through numerous generations in your family.
Best of luck with your research. Do come back and let us know how you get on, and what you find.
Of course if you need further help, just ask the many RootsChatter happy to assist.
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Reply to Neale #55
I am most grateful for this family chart, thank you. It is a great start. I anticipate an uphill journey here in SA with getting any records from so far back ...
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Responding to Mabel #5
I cannot open any of the FamilySearch.org files
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uk southafrica
it is a shock when that happens .
Rootschatters helped discover that my mother had been following the wrong grandmother ..someone with the same name . She found out in her 80s after 10 years of research ..but we do have the right one now .
Good Luck ..take your time ..and lots of deep breaths !
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Responding to Mabel #5
I cannot open any of the FamilySearch.org files
Frederick Warren Batchelder
Baptism 24 Mar 1922
South Africa
Birth Date 31 Jan 1906
Father's Name Arthur Batchelder
Mother's Name Sophia Batchelder
That birth date is the same date given on your father's death cert.
The birth cert. your father should have been given.
The problem is, was the cert. requested in person, by phone or post?
It's a concern, a person with a forename & middle name who must've known his own birth date/year (passed down to his death informant) which has also been deemed 'correct', was given the wrong cert. initially.
Annie
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I cannot open any of the FamilySearch.org files
To access the records on Family Search, you need to be registered and signed on.
The site is free to use (absolutely no cost), but you do need to register. It would be worth your while to register to use Family Search, because they hold some useful South African records.
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Thanks Annie and others.
I have sent an email to the Cape Town DoHome Affairs requesting the birth certificate for 31 Jan 1906.
Thanks Neale I will register with the Family Search organization.
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uksouthafrica,
Also worth noting re familysearch.com, use Edge as your browser.
Sue
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Also worth noting re familysearch.com, use Edge as your browser.
Indeed Sue & it would've been nice if they'd shown that on their website as it took me weeks to figure out why I couldn't access any records although I could access the site ::)
Annie
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I refer you to this thread currently on South Africa Rootschat.
It shows the difficulty some are having in getting effective service from SA Home Affairs re birth certificates.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=860176.9
Sue
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Response to Reply #55
Could the draft family chart please be amended to Denis - it is not Dennis.
See attached ID and Death Certificate.
And a photograph of our mother Christina Johanna Petronella Conradie.
Many thanks.
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Response to Sue - thank you, I will try Edge.
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Thanks Sue (#64) I have applied for a vault copy of FW Batchelder's birth certificate - I see how frustrated my fellow S Africans are ...
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Posting again the children of James Batchelder and Naomi Warren
• Elizabeth Naomi Batchelder birth registered 1850 Marylebone
• Frederick John Batchelder birth registered 1851 Hendon
• Asher 1853 Batchelder birth registered St Saviour, Surrey
• William James Batchelder birth registered 1855 St Saviour, Surrey
Death for James, the father: James Batchelder, died S. Quarter 1855, St Saviour, Surrey, age 44 (born 1811)
I did some more investigation into the census for James ------
1841 census sees James Batchelder (age 31, not born in county) working as a servant at Cumberland Place, St Pancras.
1851 census John Street, Marylebone. ( I believe this is the correct family, although wife Naomi is called Mary here)
James Batchelor, Head, married, age 39, born Suffolk, Butler
Mary Batchelor, wife, married, age 34, born Essex
Elizabeth Batchelor, daughter, age 1, born Middlesex
I am not having much success finding a baptism for James around 1810 - 1811 in Suffolk.
There is a marriage for James BACHELOR to Susan BAKER – married 14 Oct 1806 St Bartholomew, Shipmeadow, Suffolk
I thought this looked promising, but I can only find baptisms for their 2 daughters in 1820 & 1823 in Beccles
Perhaps someone might have more success finding a baptism for James. (On his marriage his father is recorded as James - a farmer).
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Response to #68
Thank you Neale1961
Thank you so much for your research. I suppose my father’s vault copy of his birth certificate or baptism record (I need to find churches in Woodstock) will be the best lead for the real family?
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The link to to the baptism was provided at reply #5
Incase you are still having trouble getting on to FamilySearch…..you have to register, but it is completely free here is a clip
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The baptism took place in St Marks, Cape Town.
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Response to # 70 & 71
Thank you to both! How amazing! In 1985 I searched through St Marks church register for Father’s baptism dated 1906, not thinking to look for a later date. Sorry I missed #5 - I have much to learn … your replies are very helpful. I must now ask myself where to now?
I met with my cousin Paul Batchelder today after 60 yrs (son of Edward James) who mentioned that their dad had died (must be Arthur) and that the British family were from Croydon? He knew nothing more.
PS I got billed very heavily by Heritage.com today (registered before I found Rootschat) - I paid but how do I deregister? Very concerned…
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I think, (after some googling) that if you click on your name top right of the MyHeritage.com homepage you will get a drop down menu.
In either “Account Settings” or “My Purchases” there should be an option to turn OFF the autorenew that has probably been set.
Meanwhile make the most of it and print off the census sheets we have outlined earlier.
Also, you probably can follow those families in England forward to find more descendants of James Batchelder and Naomi Warren.
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You ask, “Where to now?”
This depends entirely on what you want to know about your ancestors (how curious you are), and what time you want to spend searching for information.
From the family chart supplied (updated copy attached) you could begin to compile your own family tree.
You might like more information about Fredrick Warren’s mother, Sophia Margaret.
You may want to find out about Arthur Asher’s siblings that remained in England, or search for earlier generations of the family.
There are things you might like to do closer to home. For example - have you tried to find the house at 17 Wicht St, where your father was living in 1922? You might wish to find out more about Frederick Warren’s older brothers Harold and Alpha Arthur who would appear to have descendants still living in South Africa.
You might find more information from the Cape Town Family History Society, or the Genealogical Society of South Africa.
There are these items obtainable from National Archives of South Africa which might be of interest, and further your research. There may well be other items to find.
• 1885 CO 4246 B81 MEMORIAL. ARTHUR BATCHELDER. REQUESTING EMPLOYMENT.
• 1894 CSC 2/6/1/148 2 MOTION. PETITION OF CATHERINE BATCHELDER (BORN VAN BLOMMESTEIN) TO SUE HER HUSBAND ARTHUR BATCHELDER IN FORMA PAUPERIS FOR JUDICIAL SEPARATION.
• 1952 1/WBG 110 33/2/4/47/53 SOCIAL WELFARE. PROTECTION OF CHILDREN. CONTRIBUTION ORDER. EDWARD W BATCHELDER
• 1972 CSC 2/1/1/3922 4443 ILLIQUID CASE. RESTITUTION OF CONJUGAL RIGHTS. WALTER ALFRED PALMER VERSUS CHRISTINA JOHANNA PETRONELLA PALMER (FORMERLY BATCHELDER, BORN CONRADIE)
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Regarding your father’s baptism in 1922. This is some information about Frederick Warren’s God parents / Sponsors named at baptism.
Charles Frederick KANNEMEYER (Mixed race) born 1.7.1887; died 1947 Chester Rd Woodstock
He married 1905 Maria Caroline HARRIS.
He worked for the S.A. Railways as a shunter & train recorder
Henry Joseph HAUPT (European) b. 1875; d. 4 April 1922 ,
He married 1902 Caroline STEMMET
Lived at 7 Wicht St, Woodstock (just down the street from Frederick Warren at 17 Wicht St)
He worked as a mineral water maker; died from an accidental explosion of the mineral water machinery, just a few weeks after the baptism.
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Response to #73/74
Such useful information here, thank you so much.
Wicht street does not seem to exist anymore - but I’ll drive around and ask.
I have a lot of researching to do.
I have also contacted a 43 yr old Mark Batchelder who has a Harold in the lineage - he is starting his own search because we thought we weren’t related.
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If you search for Wicht St, Richmond, CapeTown (on Google maps) you will find it. A very small street.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wicht+St,+Richmond,+Cape+Town,+South+Africa/@-33.9069099,18.57479,19z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x1dcc5a53e938f1ff:0xc89b1dc184050c77!8m2!3d-33.907758!4d18.5751709
I have also contacted a 43 yr old Mark Batchelder who has a Harold in the lineage - he is starting his own search because we thought we weren’t related.
I feel certain Mark will be a relative. ;) The surname is quite distinctive in the Cape Town area.
That will be a good contact, and you can work together and share notes with him.
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I have also contacted a 43 yr old Mark Batchelder who has a Harold in the lineage - he is starting his own search because we thought we weren’t related.
It might be worth considering DNA when an offer comes up?
Annie
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That's amazing ..thanks for posting the updates
The south African court clips can throw up some gems .I was helped that way too .
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Response to #76,77,78
Thank you to all.
DNA would be most interesting. Mark and I have so many similar character traits.
I did google a shop in the Wicht street area - will have a closer look thanks.
I am keen to look for Sophie Margaret's history.
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May I just say 'Thank You' to the group!
I've been exploring the BATCHELDER line on behalf of a distant cousin. Her line is:
Arthur Albert Noel BATCHELDER (father)
Alpha Arthur BATCHELDER (Grandfather)
and this was as far as I'd got until I happened upon your chat.
So thank you.
I'm assuming that her Gt Grandfather (Arthur Asher BATCHELDER) emigrated from London to Cape Town where he met his wife (Catherine Sarah VAN BLOMMESTEIN)?
I'm comfortable investigating UK ancestors but struggling with SA info so anything more that you can tell me would be much appreciated.
Tim
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Hi Tim
Have you had a look at the family chart attached at the bottom of reply #74
I don’t think we spent much time on Alpha Arthur, as we were looking more at another family member. So it is possible there is more to find.
I find the best place to look for south African records is FamilySearch
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Hi Neale,
Yes. Had a look at the chart. Are you confident about all the info on it?
I've realised that there's a load of info on FamilySearch but I couldn't find Alpha Arthur there. It's RootsChat that got me to James BATCHELDER so I can now use that to take the line back further.
Tim
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Yes, I am confident the information I compiled for the chart is correct. It is a summary only.
There is more detail about the family in the general discussion of the thread - a lot to read through
I have looked back at my notes for this family and am adding here what might be more relevant to your search (all from Family Search):
Alpha Arthur BATCHELDER Marriage 1904 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NWF-7D46
Keturah Elizabeth FOX born 1885 England, daughter of Albert Thomas Fox;
Died Sth Africa 23 April 1954 Cape Town
Children of Alpha Arthur Batchelder and Keturah Eliz Fox
• Amy Gertude Batchelder born 1904; died 1963. Married 1932 to Irvine George MOIR;
• Ida Grace Batchelder b.10 Feb 1906 Woodstock
• Harold James Thompson Batchelder b. 10 June 1908 Mowbray; died 1962 Goodwood. 1st married 1930 J-burg to Grace STEWART; 2nd married 1951 Cape Town to Nancy RAWLINGS
• Edna Kate Batchelder b. 18 Apr 1910 Mowbray; died 2005. Married 1940 J-Burg to Percy Douglas Skelton WIMBLE
• Una Agnes Batchelder b. 14 Oct 1916 Cape Town; married 1940 Rolf martin NUPEN
• Arthur Albert Noel Batchelder b. 26 Dec 1923 Booysens J-Burg; married 1948 Patricia O’ROURKE
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Family background information for Keturah Elizabeth FOX / BATCHELDER ......
Albert Thomas FOX
- born 23 Sept 1860 All Saints Poplar, Tower Hamlets
- died 2 Oct 1929 Johannesburg. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPZM-CWXN
Keturah Agnes FOX (nee STORIE)
- born 1860 Poplar, Tower Hamlets. Father Alexander STORIE, Mother Keturah Elizabeth DANIELS
- died 17 June 1896, age 36. Born England abt 1860
Marriage 24 Sept 1882 - St Leonard, Bromley, Tower Hamlets, Middlesex
Albert Thomas FOX (Boiler maker) and Keturah Agnes STORIE
His father – Joseph FOX boiler maker. Mother Sarah
Her father – Alexander STORIE boiler maker
Children of Albert Thos FOX (Boiler maker) and Keturah Agnes STORIE
• Keturah Elizabeth Fox born 19 May 1885 All Hallows, Poplar, Tower Hamlets – married Alpha Arthur BATCHELDER in Sth Africa
• George Henry Fox born 19 Oct 1886 Poplar, Tower Hamlets
• Sarah Anne Fox born July 1888 Poplar, Tower Hamlets, died 1888
• Thomas Alexander Fox 1891 Sth Africa
• Rhoda May Fox 1892 died 1892 Sth Africa
• Agnes Janet Fox 1896 Sth Africa
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Links to records to investigate for the BLOOMSTEIN family. The surname spelling is very variable.
Marriage 24 Oct 1854 Wesleyan Chapel, Stellenbosch, Western Cape
Willem Jacobus BLOEMMSTEIN to Katharina Gertruida Christiana BAREND
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CZP5-PST2
Possible death for the William James in 1872 Western Cape
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NFZ-B8HM
Children:
Magdalena Rachel BLOMMESTEIN born 1857 Stellenbosch
Catherine Sarah BLOEMSTED baptised 26 Mar 1865 (born 29 Jan) Cape Town, Wynberg and Rondebosch
Father William (labourer), mother Catherine
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-Y63V
Willem Daniel BLOEMESTEIN born 1867 Western Cape
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6NXY-JSQ5
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Thanks for all this info. It's filled in several gaps and will enable my research to go ahead.
Tim
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Hello after a long absence
I need to change the topic to Frederick Warren Batchelder South Africa.
In short, my father’s birth certificate entry #259 is incorrect as it refers to the Bachelor family that returned to the UK with their 2 sons, neither of whom was my father.
The correct entry found in the Western Cape Archives and Records Service HAWC 1/3/55/3/1 for his birth is #446. Date place of birth: 10 February 1906, 4 Lay Street, Woodstock; no name just gender Male; Father: blank space; Mother: Sophia Fletcher born Nordström; race Mixed, place: Cape Colony; when registered: 13 March 1906 Woodstock.
Other records show that my grandfather Arthur Asher Batchelder, born in 1853 in the UK, came to the Cape Colony and having married and divorced Catherine van Blommestein after having 4 children, had 3 children with Sophia Margaret [Fletcher, hence widow] neé Nordström. Her father, Johann Alfred Nordström was born in Sweden 1827 & married Margaretha Magdalina Teubes in the Cape. The latter might have been ‘mixed’. Sophia had 2 brothers mentioned in her father’s will.
So a tragic records error that was never questioned. WW11 and being a POW in Italy and Stalag 8 did not help. The International Red Cross have given me a summary of Dad’s POW record but not where the SA POW’s were sent to in the UK. I wonder why he remained in the UK for a year or more. Shell shock was real but untreated then.
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So Mabel Bagshawe (reply #5) was correct, my dad Frederick Warren Batchelder was 16 yrs old when baptized in 1922 by which time mother Sophia had the surname Batchelder. Not sure when they married.
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Thanks for returning to this thread to let us know that you finally got the records you needed for your father.
There was never any marriage record found for Arthur Asher Batchelder and Sophia Margaret.
When she died in 1948 she is recorded as Sophia FLETCHER, born NORDSTROM. No mention of the Batchelder surname.
Sophia Margaret had married Charles FLETCHER in 1890, and he died in Dec 1899. So there was no problem for her to remarry. Maybe Arthur never got a divorce from his first wife, Catherine BLOMMESTEIN. Catherine did partner with another man, but not sure that they married.
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Hi All,
Thanks for the sharing of the various bits of info here. I am researching the van Blommestein family in RSA and have Arthur Batchelder as married to Catherine van B. UKSOUTHAFRICA you mentioned they had four children? I currently have 2 on record. Can you help me with those details please. Would be much appreciated.
With regard to their possible divorce, as raised by NEALE1961, I had a ref to a NAAIRS record for that, but the link doesn't work anymore. sorry. But my record suggests that they did file for divorce. I attached the following note to the divorce notation -
Application made "In Forma Pauperis"
In forma pauperis means "in the character or manner of a pauper". The phrase is Latin in origin. In certain legal proceedings, a person may file a request seeking permission from the court to proceed with a case in forma pauperis, which means the person is asking the court to waive its filing fees. It is a legal status afforded to a person by the court and enables people of low income or no income to have access to the courts.
**Does anyone have further info about William (Willem) Jacobus van B b 1830 Stellenbosch? He is Catherine's father, but I can't get back beyond his birth for parents details.
Greta discussion everyone!
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Hi Vanblom, Have you downloaded the Batchelder Family Chart which is at the bottom of reply #74, on page 9 of this thread?. It lists all the children.