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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: friesland on Tuesday 15 March 22 17:28 GMT (UK)
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My Hickey, g grandfather, John Hickey was born (1836) and lived in Lambeth Surrey. His parents, according to his baptism record from St George's Catholic Church, Southwark, Surrey, were John Hickey and Catherine Riley and census records show that they were both born in Ireland, both in about 1811, but gives no more detail. I cannot find a marriage in England but have found an original record on the National Library of Ireland website showing a John Hickey and what looks like Kitty Reilly married on 1st March 1835 at Hospital and Herbertstown, Limerick.
I started looking on the Surrey forum - https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=859755.msg7287896#msg7287896 but was advised that this Irish forum was more appropriate.
Can anyone point me in any direction towards getting further back with my family?
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Searching in Ireland is easier if you know
a the religion
b the townland that your people lived in
https://www.townlands.ie/
If you have found the marriage you will know
a & b as usually/often the townland is the location noted on the register
c the names of the fathers.
The sites that I use most often
1 Family Search
2 National Archives for Census
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/pre1901.html
and
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp
3 Griffiths Valuation
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
4 https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
There is a paid site I some times use if I am really stuck
https://rootsireland.ie/limerick/online-sources.php
eg Hospital & Herbertstown 1810 - 1899 (Baptisms) 1812 - 1813 &
1815 - 1887 (Marriages)
Also do a Google search for
a genealogical resources in Limerick
b the actual names you have
This is a general useful guide for searching in Ireland
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/how-to-trace-your-irish-family-history-a-step-by-step-guide-1.3423973
naming patterns
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Ireland_Personal_Names
Kitty is a short form for Catherine
Reilly is another way of spelling Riley or O'Reilly & O'Riley. Often Irish families dropped any O' before their names as anti Irish sentiment was not unknown.
It is useful to find out the occupations......I have two Scottish forebears who lived at Lambeth in the same period who were stone masons working on ?????? I don't have the papers here.
A smidgen of Irish history can be useful as can having a search page open all the time to pop townlands in to find where they are.
Also be aware that the pull of 'big' cities was then as it is now.....if you find a name in Limerick City or Dublin that may fit then do more searching before discounting it.
Also while families may have gone to London like yours they usually left families behind and searching for siblings i.e. laterally to get clues in some cases may be more useful that trying to go straight back.
Best of luck, searching in Ireland can be/is! the most frustrating, interesting, off on byways-inducing occupations.
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quick search shows two baptisms
bapt John Hickey 01 April 1812 parents John and Mary (Pallasgreen and Templebredin, Limerick/Tipperary)
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632760#page/10/mode/1up
bapt John Hickey 13 May 1813 parents William and Catherine (Galbally and Aherlow, Limerick/Tipperary)
https://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000632715#page/37/mode/1up
I couldnt see any for Catherine/Kitty that i could say could be possibilities.
sometimes looking at children's names can give hints to parents and siblings names.
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The parish entry for the marriage looks like it gives an address for Catherine.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632730#page/271/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632730#page/271/mode/1up)
It looks like Clonvillan. I can't find anything matching that, but maybe Cloghaviller, close to Herbertstown?
https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/smallcounty/ballinard/cahercorney/cloghaviller/ (https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/smallcounty/ballinard/cahercorney/cloghaviller/)
Still Reillys in Cloghaviller in the 1901 census.
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The parish entry for the marriage looks like it gives an address for Catherine.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632730#page/271/mode/1up (https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632730#page/271/mode/1up)
It looks like Clonvillan. I can't find anything matching that, but maybe Cloghaviller, close to Herbertstown?
https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/smallcounty/ballinard/cahercorney/cloghaviller/ (https://www.townlands.ie/limerick/smallcounty/ballinard/cahercorney/cloghaviller/)
Still Reillys in Cloghaviller in the 1901 census.
On the marriage register it seems to name her parents as Thos ie Thomas Reily and Mary Connors.
Looks like Clonvillar. There is a Cloghavillar Castle in Limerick Powell Family.
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On the marriage register it seems to name her parents as Thos ie Thomas Reily and Mary Connors.
The names of the two witnesses were Thos Reily and Margt Connors.
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Thanks for all the pointers, I will follow these up.
One problem is that as Hickey and Reily are fairly common names in Ireland I am not sure whether this marriage relates to my John Hickey and Catherine Reily or a totally different family. The entry shows Kitty which may be short for Catherine but in other records - the baptisms of three children and in census records - she is always Catherine.
And if it is, can I assume that the witnesses are parents?
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No I made a mistake the witnesses are not the parents......they are the witnesses and as such may be friends or relations of either or of the bride or groom. Or, people the priest called on who may have lived close to the church for those who did not have their own witnesses. It is always worth searching back and forwards for witnesses as they can provide a link to the family that may take you somewhere.
Sometimes there were witnesses one from each side and sometimes they witnessed alongside the groom by a bride's witness and vice versa as a show of family unity for the marriage.
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On the marriage register it seems to name her parents as Thos ie Thomas Reily and Mary Connors.
The names of the two witnesses were Thos Reily and Margt Connors.
Yes I am sorry these were witnesses not parents.....doh and I noticed especially the priest's short form of 'witnesses' and still wrote parents. Sorry again.
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My Hickey, g grandfather, John Hickey was born (1836) and lived in Lambeth Surrey. His parents, according to his baptism record from St George's Catholic Church, Southwark, Surrey, were John Hickey and Catherine Riley and census records show that they were both born in Ireland, both in about 1811, but gives no more detail. I cannot find a marriage in England but have found an original record on the National Library of Ireland website showing a John Hickey and what looks like Kitty Reilly married on 1st March 1835 at Hospital and Herbertstown, Limerick.
I started looking on the Surrey forum - https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=859755.msg7287896#msg7287896 but was advised that this Irish forum was more appropriate.
Can anyone point me in any direction towards getting further back with my family?
Wjat are the names of all the children of this couple please? Were they all born in England?
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Thanks for all the pointers, I will follow these up.
One problem is that as Hickey and Reily are fairly common names in Ireland I am not sure whether this marriage relates to my John Hickey and Catherine Reily or a totally different family. The entry shows Kitty which may be short for Catherine but in other records - the baptisms of three children and in census records - she is always Catherine.
And if it is, can I assume that the witnesses are parents?
The Kitty or Catherine scenario can be explained as the marriage certificate will have probably been drawn up by a priest who knew the family well and she may have been known as Kitty in the family and around the district. Going to a new place and with new procedures she may have been asked, if she could not read/write 'what is your name?' and of course would not be giving a family's/close friends nickname/diminutive.
For all we know the husband may not have liked Kitty as a name.....
Who reported/registered the births of the children?
Always good to check further but do not dismiss this because of a difference in names, especially if the difference in names is that of a well known diminutive. My grandmother, also a Catherine was universally known as Cass (also a Catherine diminutive). Her children are registered under Catherine.
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The children wrere all born in Lambeth, Surrey in England. John in 1836, Patrick in 1838 and Bridget in 1841. I have no birth certificates but the baptism register, in the Catholic Cathedral, shows the parents as John Hickey and Catherine Riley. The godparents of John are Patrick Murphy and Bridget Riley, Patrick are Patrick Riley and Helen Connor, Bridget are Jacob Quinlan and Bridget Riley.
I am trying to follow up on Patrick and Bridget Riley who may be related to Catherine. It may be an assumption but I would think that they would be resident in England.
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I would also follow up on the Connor/s name as a sponsor.....NB this was a name that appeared as a witness on the 'Kitty' marriage. Margt Connors.
And then while you are at it follow up the Murphy and Quinlan names. Again some families often had one sponsor/godparent from each side of the family or close family friends. Always worth checking.