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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: DerekB on Tuesday 08 March 22 17:43 GMT (UK)
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I have an ancestor married in Amsterdam in 1640. I have attached a copy of the record from the Amsterdam Archive but am unable to read it. Can anyone help with the part in handwriting
I am rather hoping that is says where the couple were from, as I suspect that they were protestant refugees from France.
Thanks
Derek
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Not easy to read but the last part seems to say there was a blood relationship
so perhaps the reason why there was not a legal /Christian marriage !
“Waar door een Kristalijk Huwelijk verhindert wooden
Therefore a Christian marriage was hindered.
I will have another look I can’t see the top part clearly enough ,just the Gothic script at the bottom.
Dezer persoonen Waren in marcanderen in bloed.( anderen can mean each other )
Modern Dutch uses “ “verwant in bloed “ for consanguinity.
I might be mistaken so will ask son tomorrow.
I can’t think that they would make their marks in blood .
Viktoria.
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Hi Viktoria,
Thanks for the rely.
The Gothic printed part is common to all marriages on the page.
It is only the hand written few lines that relate to the couple.
The marriage took place at the French Church in Amsterdam.
I have up loaded a higher resolution copy of the hand writing.
Regards
Derek
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Oh I see, that would apply to every couple getting married,if blood relatives they could not be legally married.
I forget the tenses which of course can alter the meaning .
Sorry I can’t read the writing pertaining to your person.
Hope someone with better eyes can help.
Viktoria.
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Thanks for trying.
Regards
Derek
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I've had a look but the script is tricky for me to read.
All I can make out is the names, ages and addresses of the couple.
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Thanks, the writing in quite difficult.
Who ever wrote it had difficulty with his family name. Even on the Amsterdam city archive and other Dutch Family History sites there are different versions of it and it is different on his childrens baptisms.
Their ages as you say are 22 and 20.
My attempt at reading it is
"Nicolas Traisnel van (from?) bovarit y Boratworker (possibly a Weaver) ont 22 yaren (22 yers old) wonymile? Lamrid..Pratt yus ondrbb graffi Auld mit bp (unreadable) erwyrh y (and) Anne Jean van O..... ont 20 Jars (20 years old) wonymile FonchArat gy ondilb yearppi Ault mit graub bw Aile Cartalnm Jray"
I have no idea if these are real old dutch words or not.
I don't even recognise any of the place names that you say are there.
Thanks for your help.
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I think the word after years in each case is wonend (not sure of ending) meaning living at, so perhaps followed by in?? and later on I can see ouders (parents) geassistert for each person, but I am not sure what that means. You couldn't get married without your parents' permission so it probably means that the parents gave their permission but they aren't named. The records I have usually name the parents. The girl might be living at Jonckestraat.
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Where you have said Lamrid Pratt, the pratt is straat, so Lamrid straat? Looks as though there is an abbreviation in there.
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Normally, to show people are previously unmarried there are two letters as an abbreviation for young daughter or young son and those might be what is before ouders but they don't look quite right. I think it is inde, run together, before each street name.
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Thanks,
It is starting to make some sense now.
Regards
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I think it's definitely some kind of abbreviation for woonachtig/wonend = residing/living.
She is living in the Jonckerstraat? His street name begins with L.
and the word for the ages is out (oud in modern Dutch), just like English old.
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I transcribed and translated the written part. He came from France, that's for sure, but at the moment I don't know her place of origin. Gorge can point to a few places, not only in France.
Compareerden als voren Nicolas Tresnell Traisnel
van del vantij, boratwercker, out 22 jaren, wonende in de Laurierstraet,
geen ouders, geassisteerd met sijn Paskier Cruijck, ende Anna Jean
van Gorge, out 20 jaren, wonende in de Jonckerstraet, geen ouders,
geassisteert met haer suster Cathaline Jean.
Appeared:
Nicolas Traisnel, from Delvantij (now: Elvange, France), 22 years old, borat worker (weaver), living in Laurierstraat in Amsterdam, no parents, assisted by Paskier Cruijck
&
Anna Jean, from Gorge (now: ? ? ?), 20 years old, living in Jonckerstraat in Amsterdam, no parents, assisted by her sister Cathaline Jean.
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That's wonderful, Zefiro. Congratulations.
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Hi Zefiro,
That is wonderful, I can't thank you enough.
To have the French connection confirmed is a great bonus.
Ties in perfectly with the French Church Threadneedle St records in London where a number of his children were married. All Silk weavers. All described as natif de Amsterdam when they married to people with a recorded origin in France.
Some of the children stayed in England hence my connection. Some returned to the Netherlands.
Best wishes
Derek
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Thanks to Zefiro's great effort I now know a lot more about my ancestors origins and I have some questions.
Zefiro translated his place of origin as:
Delvantij (now: Elvange, France), Is Delvantij the Dutch spelling of Elvange or has the place name changed?
I can find 2 places called Elvange one in France close to the German Border. Between Metz and Saarbrucken and another in Luxembourg also very close to Germany. In 1640 were they both in France? As Nicolas's was I believe a French Protestant he would have been a refugee form persecution in France so the Elvange he came from would have been the one in France in 1640.
However when I look for the family name Traisnel on the IGI it seems to be more common in Germany than France. I seem to remember that that part of Europe has changed hands many times over the last 500 years.
Also Zefiro translated "assisted by Paskier Cruijck" is that a Dutch name? although Paskier seems to be a French Family name.
Any clarifications would be most welcome.
Thank you
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Delvantij (now: Elvange, France). Is Delvantij the Dutch spelling of Elvange or has the place name changed?
I can find 2 places called Elvange one in France close to the German Border. Between Metz and Saarbrucken and another in Luxembourg also very close to Germany. In 1640 were they both in France? As Nicolas's was I believe a French Protestant he would have been a refugee form persecution in France so the Elvange he came from would have been the one in France in 1640.
About Delvantij: This is the name that appeared in this marriage record. It is what the man writing down this record heard when he asked Nicolas where he came from. Remember that they don't speak the same language. So I guess that Nicolas answered: Je viens d'Elvange, meaning I come from Elvange. The dutch man thought his place of origin was something along the line of Delvan.., thinking that the D he heard was part of the place name.
I found the solution here, a study of all the places appearing in for instance marriage contracts:
https://www.amsterdam.nl/stadsarchief/themasites/downloads/herkomstonderzoek/
I guess the place you're looking for is Elvange, Moselle, France. But I also found the other place in Luxembourg, and I can't tell you if this once was a part of France or not.
Also Zefiro translated "assisted by Paskier Cruijck" is that a Dutch name? although Paskier seems to be a French Family name.
Any clarifications would be most welcome.
Thank you
Paskier is a version of Paschier, derived from Paschasius. It's used here as a first name, although there exist also a few family names like that.
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Hi Zefiro,
Once again many thanks, it is slowly becoming clearer through your knowledge.
Best wishes
Derek