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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Valsgirl on Monday 07 March 22 23:55 GMT (UK)
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Trying to find a birth record for Sybil Edith Crase. Born about 1901, possibly in Australia. Sybil held both a British (possibly, her right by descent) & Australian passport.
October 1919. Perth WA. -The earliest record I can find (Trove) is her 1st Engagement Notice. This engagement appears to last only a few months, before fiance marries another woman!
Feb. 1921. Passenger list "Miss S Crase" WA. to SA.
October 1922. Adelaide SA. Sybil's 2nd Engagement Notice
October 1923 Adelaide SA. Marriage Notice (Trove) Sybil (AKA Billie) parents are reported to be "Late Mr & Mrs J R Crase, Sydney)
Marriage Certificate details also show Father - John Robert Crase.
I have all the information I need about Mrs Sybil Edith Bennett nee Crase from her 1923 marriage until her April 1991 death in Sydney.
I can find no B M D records for her father John Robert Crase.
Any help would be really appreciated.
Thank you
Valsgirl
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Sunday Times 5 Oct 1919 p11
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/58006216?
Mr. Charles B. ALEXANDER, of Broome. the prospective bride being Miss Sybil
CRASE, of Subiaco.
Observer 23 Dec 1923 p38
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164837813?
BENNETT—CRASE.—On the 27th October, at St. Peter's College Chapel, by the Rev, W- H.
Irwin, M.A., Rex. Leland, eldest son of Mrs. and the late Dr. T. C. Bennett, Prospect, to
Sybil Edith, daughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. J. R. Crase, Sydney.
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Mirror (Perth) 27 Oct 1923 p9
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/77758060?
To-morrow (October 37) in the venue of the St Peter's College Chapel, Adelaide, Miss Sybil Edith
Crase will whisper the blushing yea to Captain Rex Leland Bennett. Both the contracting parties are widely known in Perth, and many good wishes from the West will accompany them to the altar.
Was Sybil still married at the time of her death, or did the 1923 marriage end.....separation...divorce?
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Thank you for your interest, Wivenhoe.
I already have the information in your answer. Note my initial query.
Valsgirl
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I have included the full text of the notices in case it gives any clues. Sybil Edith is of Subiaco.
Mercury 5 Nov 1927 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/24204293?
....birth of son in Hobart......
Mercury 14 Jan 1933 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/24688355?
...birth of son at 12 Lang Road; Centennial Park, N.S.W.....
These birth certificates would record age and birthplace of mother.
BDM NSW death
7169/1991 BENNETT Sybil Edith died Gordon 89
The informant does not know much about Sybil's origins. If her husband is still alive, and possibly the source of information on the death certificate, you might wonder if her family knows much about her at all.
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Do you know Sybil's mother's name?
Judith
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The Mail 12 Aug 1922 p17
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/63948288?
..Sybil is a student at the Conservatorium of Music in Adelaide......
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"Trying to find a birth record for Sybil Edith Crase. Born about 1901, possibly in Australia. Sybil held both a British (possibly, her right by descent) & Australian passport."
Please note - I'm a family friend and aware of Sybil's life after her marriage - as I have previously stated. Therefore her Marriage facts & Death record are known to me. I'd only like to find Sylvia's birth and details of her parents. Sybil was very cagey about her parents / birthplace, telling the family they didn't need to know that!
Thank you, judb, for your interest in my quest.
I don't know Sybil's Mum's name & cannot find a likely marriage or death for Sylvia's parents. We wonder if the very "theatrical" Sybil made up her father's name, but to have it printed in the newspaper & to have a Miss E Crase as a witness at her marriage, surely has to have some truth to it. One thought is that Sybil was adopted & took on the surname Crase. But who then are Mr & Mrs J R Crase?.
With thanks,
Valsgirl
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"Miss E Crase as a witness at her marriage"
You had not mentioned this before. Who was the other witness?
It there anything here to work with........
All Western Australia, Australia, Crew and Passenger Lists, 1852-1930 results for Crase
https://www.ancestry.com.au/search/collections/1684/?name=_crase&arrival=_fremantle&arrival_x=_1-0&count=50&name_x=1_1
Do you have the birth certificates for the two sons, born Tasmania and Sydney?
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If she was studying at the "Adelaide Conservatorium" , presumably the Elder Conservatorium of Music
https://www.adelaide.edu.au/records/university-archives/related-institutions/elder-conservatorium-of-music
I wonder if they have any archives that may assist - enrollment details etc?
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Thanks, I've considered that, Madys52, as I felt someone must have paid for this education.
I can't see any Adelaide Con records online, but have a website so will inquire via that.
I appreciate your suggestion,
Valsgirl
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Wivenhoe, I hadn't mentioned Sybil's marriage witnesses as I don't feel the names are relevant to my Birth info query. I have E (Eleanor) Crase's details, and those of the other witness, a friend of the groom.
One of Sybil's sons is still living so we do not discuss them on this forum. please. Apart from that, her son's birth certs will not help me to find Sybil's birthplace.
Thanks,
Valsgirl
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I was wondering about the addresses of the 12 year old Sybil Crase when she’s writing letters to the news paper:
Jan 1914: “Hamilton” 119 Cambridge St, West Leederville
(https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/80098787?searchTerm=Crase )
1914/1915 Directories list: “Scott Mrs. S. 119 Cambridge st. Ldrvlle”
May 1914 “Ziska” 177 Hay St, Subiaco”
(https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/79917639?searchTerm=crase )
1914 Directory lists: “Linton Mrs. Melina, 177 Hay st. Subiaco”
1915 Directory lists: “Douglas Mrs, M. 177 Hay st. Sub”
Could they be boarding houses or is she being fostered?
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They are good finds treespirit
There is an advertisement for 119 Cambridge St, West Leederville in July 1914 - "2 furnished rooms, suit couple or ladies, private family"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26911674 (last column near the middle)
A description of the property in 1924
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article31261548 (last column near the middle)
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There is also an advertisement for honey from an A W THOMAS at 177 Hay St, Subiaco in May 1914
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26904689 (3rd column from left, middle)
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WA BDM marriage
CRASE Harold George marr. FORSTER Edith Annie @ Perth 1456 1902
birth
CRASE Douglas Harold parents Harold George / DOUGLAS Edith Annie @ Perth 5422 1905
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I had a look at that family earlier, there was a divorce and quite a bit written in the papers about it. They had one child die as a baby, and only the one living male child according to the reports.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article207405844
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And supposedly a divorce for Edith Annie, January 1901, which I do not see in newspaper.
Ancestry Electoral Roll 1917 117 Hay St
DOUGLAS Herbert James railway employee
DOUGLAS Mary Elizabeth
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Sydney Morning Herald 23 Dec 1911 p18
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28133796?
CRASE.-December 14, at Kalgoorlie, Edith A, CRASE (formerly of Sydney), beloved daughter of M.E
DOUGLAS Perth WA Deeply regretted.
Kalgoorlie Cemetery https://www.kalgoorliebouldercemetery.com.au/search/
CRASE Edith 31 16/12/1911 ANG Kalgoorlie Cemetery
NSM BDM
29/1896 FORSTER George S marr. DOUGLAS Edith A @ Sydney
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The Daily News (Perth)9 Dec 1899 p6
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/83064521?
...divorce in NSW of Frederick George CRASE ........Edith Annie married 1896 Sydney......
Sydney Morning Herald 22 Nov 1899 p4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14228366?
...divorce in NSW of Frederick George CRASE ........Edith Annie married 1896 Sydney......formerly DOUGLAS.
BDM NSW births
1609/1875 DOUGLAS Edith May parents James Bryant Mary Elizabeth @ Sydney
5418/1876 DOUGLAS Edith Annie parents James Bryan Mary Elizabeth @ Redfern
6106/1881 DOUGLAS James Henry C parents James Bryan Mary Elizabeth @ Newtown
7056/1882 DOUGLAS Herbert James parents James Bryan Mary Elizabeth @ Newtown
Western Mail 5 Jul 1902 p31
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/37543178?
CHASE-FORSTER.-On June 14, 1902, by special licence, at Wesley Manse, Rev
lioenoe, at Wesley Manse, Bev. T. James officiating, Harold George, second son of Geo. CRASE,
Esq., Adelaide, to Edith A. FORSTER, nee Douglas, of Sydney.
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1.
Wivenhoe, I hadn't mentioned Sybil's marriage witnesses as I don't feel the names are relevant to my Birth info query. I have E (Eleanor) Crase's details, and those of the other witness, a friend of the groom.
One of Sybil's sons is still living so we do not discuss them on this forum. please. Apart from that, her son's birth certs will not help me to find Sybil's birthplace.
Thanks,
Valsgirl
A NSW birth certificate includes information about the baby's parents, including where each parent was born, and their then age when baby was born, and when/where they married, and names ages of the babys older siblings. If birth is for someone not yet 100 years of age the b.c. is on restricted access due to the depth of detail of the sensitive info it records. So Sybils birth place is likely recorded on her living sons birth certs, even if you cannot find her passports.
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"Trying to find a birth record for Sybil Edith Crase. Born about 1901, possibly in Australia. Sybil held both a British (possibly, her right by descent) & Australian passport."
Please note - I'm a family friend and aware of Sybil's life after her marriage - as I have previously stated. Therefore her Marriage facts & Death record are known to me. I'd only like to find Sylvia's birth and details of her parents. Sybil was very cagey about her parents / birthplace, telling the family they didn't need to know that!
Thank you, judb, for your interest in my quest.
I don't know Sybil's Mum's name & cannot find a likely marriage or death for Sylvia's parents. We wonder if the very "theatrical" Sybil made up her father's name, but to have it printed in the newspaper & to have a Miss E Crase as a witness at her marriage, surely has to have some truth to it. One thought is that Sybil was adopted & took on the surname Crase. But who then are Mr & Mrs J R Crase?.
With thanks,
Valsgirl
Australian citizenship did not exist until 1949. Everyone born in Australia until mid 1960s was automatically a British Subject. If you have two actual passports, please have careful read of the fine print. It should help to explain it.
JM
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Tree Spirit, I had missed the Children's pages letters. Amazing find, thank you very much.
I will follow this lead.Thanks also to others who have added more to Tree Spirit's find.
Sybil's 94 yr old daughter in law is my friend and I'm compiling a list of surnames, to see if any may be familiar to her. I didn't remember that NSW birth certs recorded Mother's birthplace, so appreciate that reminder.
Will also see if Sybil's passports have been kept. Sybil's granddaughter was her travelling companion, hence the knowledge about two passports.
I did hope Edith Annie Douglas / Forster / Crase might be a likely Mum for Sybil. Quite a character if we can believe all we read in the papers. Throughout the many, mostly marriage related, articles I can only find 2 children, Beryl (died young) and Douglas. I have scoured the relevant records for Douglas & Forster births. Edith's 2nd husband, Harold George Crase was a well known businessman
(sourced from Trove) so I felt if he was Sybil's father / Step Father / Guardian, Sybil's marriage notice & cert. wouldn't have said J R Crase was her father, and acknowledges Harold in some way. Also checked Harold's tree & couldn't find a likely J R.
Many thanks to everyone for their help. This is a project I have been working on for a while, but as always, this forum of clever genealogists is providing me with some new paths to follow.
Cheers to you all,
Valsgirl
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CRASE ... in my list of alternative spellings in NSW ..... I have that as an alternative for:
Cruse; Cruise; Crease; Cross; Gross, Gross..... and similar.
That can be important when searching indexes for bdm, particularly NSWBDM.
NSWBDM records much of 1800s and through to around WWII Were handwritten, and not filed in surname alphabetical order. In 1930s volunteers put huge effort into indexing 1787 to 1918 records so that was a big start. In 1950s typed details avoided most mis-steps, but until then there were errors caused by the standard of penmanship and spelling. SCRIBBLING seemed to be an important talent for clerical staff to excel in.
You can search NSWBDM online births using wildcard for surname and e.g. Sybil for given name, and say 1895 to 1905 or similar try deaths CR* John and 1885-1919 etc.
JM.
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Thank you for your suggestions, JM
A good point, you make. which I have tried.
Having an unusual surname can have benefits for researchers, but often when it comes to relying on transcriptions, one has to think of all the alternatives. But -- thank heavens for transcribers!
Valsgirl
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WA BDM birth
1264 /1908 CRASE Beryl K @ Perth
5422 /1905 CRASE Douglas Harold parents Harold George / DOUGLAS Edith Annie @ Perth
NSW BDM birth
35477/1903 CRASE Beryl E D parents HAROLD G / Edith A @ Waverley
The West Australian 3 Nov 1903 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/24837015?
CRASE.-On September 9, at Waverley, N.S.W., the wife of Harold G. CRASE, Perth, of a daughter
(Beryl Emily Douglas)
WA BDM death
1958 / 1904 CRASE Beryl Emily Douglas 7M parents Harold George / DOUGLAS Edith Annie
birthplace Waverley NSW
Western Mail 30 Apr 1904 p31
CRASE.—On April 22, 1904, at 159 Brown-street, East Perth, W.A., Beryl Emily Douglas, the
dearly-beloved infant daughter of Edith Annie and Harold George CRASE, aged 7 months.
17 Jun 1905 p44
CRASE.—On May 29th, at Nurse Street's, to Mr. and Mrs. Harold G. CRASE, of Subiaco—a son.
Western Mail 17 Dec 1904 p22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/37805184?
.....passengers "Kyarra" arriving Fremantle from Sydney and ports......Mr and Mrs H G CRASE and child....
Tempting to see this as Harold George and wife Edith Annie?. Who is the child?
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A reference to Mrs CRASE’s musical talents (AKA Madame Marion Kemp)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/27469169
Sue
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Tempting to see this as Harold George and wife Edith Annie?. Who is the child?
Surely the child is Beryl Emily Douglas CRASE, born in September 1903 at Waverley NSW, travelled to WA December 1903, and died April 1904 in Perth? Or am I confused?
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As I read Wivenhoes post ....
Baby Beryl died aged 7 months in April 1904. Newspaper in December 1904 seems to have Mr & Mrs HG Crase and child on passenger list. Who is the child?
Perhaps there is a printers error in the date of that edition or perhaps there would be two families Mr & Mrs HG Crase and child in Perth December 1904.
JM
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Ah, I see, I mis read the date of the shipping arrival. My apologies.
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Beryl Emily Douglas Crase born Sept 1903 NSW & died April 1904 aged 7 months in W Aus. Her parents Harold George Crase & Edith Annie Crase. Both birth & death notices are reported in Newspaper.
Edith Annie walked away from her first 1896 NSW marriage to George Forster,after 6 months, and is granted a divorce in 1898. In 1902 Edith marries Harold George Crase in Perth W Aus. Their son Douglas Crase is born May 1905 W Aus. Edith & Harold 's marriage according to many "juicy" newspaper articles is an unhappy one. Articles relating to a Crase v Crase Court case fill the reader in on much of Edith's background and state that the couple had two children a deceased daughter and living son.
My thought is that had Sybil been an illegitimate child (born 1901 between Edith Annie's marriages) this fact would have been mentioned in court. For this reason I have really questioned if Harold George & Edith Annie are Sybil's parents.
Edith Annie Crase died 1911 W Aus.
Harold remarries Marion Kirkland.
Hope this makes it all clearer.
re 1904 Ships Passenger List. Mr & Mrs H G Crase & child. Surprisingly there are a few Crase (and variations / misspellings) around. Worth looking at? I'm not convinced they're the Harold George Crase family.
re Adelaide Conservatorium. A generous man replied to an email I sent to the Con. and I have details of Sybil's tuition payment. Another name! I'm convinced this person is not related to Sybil.
Once again Thanks to all who have contributed to this topic.
Valsgirl
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Could Sybil have been an illegitimate child given up for adoption or fostering? That could be a reason for not being mentioned in the divorce papers.
Does you friend have a possible birthdate for Sybil, Ie, did she ever celebrate her birthday?
Regards
Jennaya
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Hi
I wonder whether some answers might lie with the second wife of Harold George CRASE.
Marion Kirkwood KEMP.
She was born in SA to Peter and Mary KEMP in 1871 (BISA) and was their second daughter . An older sister Bessie Jane is mentioned in the death notice of Marion. Bessie married William J MAIDMENT in SA.
Death Notice for Marion
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/33244430
She was known as Madame Marion KEMP and had a lengthy and illustrious career as a contralto.
She studied at the Elder Conservatorium.
A graduation item. 1903
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/96957611
She married Harold Geo in 1911 and had a daughter the next year.
It seems to me there might be a connection with the singing talent in both women. Inherited?
Or a protege style of arrangement between the two ?
Anyhow, I am still digging around on this theory ! ::)
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Hi
I wonder whether some answers might lie with the second wife of Harold George CRASE.
Marion Kirkwood KEMP.
She was born in SA to Peter and Mary KEMP in 1871 (BISA) and was their second daughter . An older sister Bessie Jane is mentioned in the death notice of Marion. Bessie married William J MAIDMENT in SA.
Death Notice for Marion
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/33244430
She was known as Madame Marion KEMP and had a lengthy and illustrious career as a contralto.
She studied at the Elder Conservatorium.
A graduation item. 1903
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/96957611
She married Harold Geo in 1911 and had a daughter the next year.
It seems to me there might be a connection with the singing talent in both women. Inherited?
Or a protege style of arrangement between the two ?
Anyhow, I am still digging around on this theory ! ::)
I was thinking the same thing. Musical talent does seem to run in families.
I also think it is worth looking further into the Eleanor Crase who was a witness at Sybil's marriage. It would be strange if they were not related, given that Crase is such an unusual surname.
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Although it probably has no bearing on the direction of this search, I was a bit sad to note that the daughter of Marion Kirkwood CRASE, whose name was Marion Dorothy Kirkwood CRASE, died in 1941 and is buried in an unmarked grave at Orange Cemetery NSW.
Sue
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re Adelaide Conservatorium. A generous man replied to an email I sent to the Con. and I have details of Sybil's tuition payment. Another name! I'm convinced this person is not related to Sybil.
What is the name of the benefactor who paid Sybil's tuition? The researchers here may be able to find some connection?
I also think it is worth looking further into the Eleanor Crase who was a witness at Sybil's marriage. It would be strange if they were not related, given that Crase is such an unusual surname.
I agree. I assume Eleanor CRASE who was witness at the marriage was the daughter of Arthur Vivian CRASE? (Though there are other Eleanor CRASE's in Australia at the time, not necessarily in SA) He seems to be be from a large family - is Eleanor a cousin?
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I have E (Eleanor) Crase's details
She has the same surname as Sybil, why would you think she is irrelevant to the search?
I agree. I assume Eleanor CRASE who was witness at the marriage was the daughter of Arthur Vivian CRASE? (Though there are other Eleanor CRASE's in Australia at the time, not necessarily in SA) He seems to be be from a large family - is Eleanor a cousin?
Arthur Vivian was the son of of James CRASE and Mary MOYLE. Harold George CRASE was the son of Arthur Vivian's eldest brother George, so Harold was Arthur's nephew. I doubt that Eleanor was their biological child.
Debra :)
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Edith's 2nd husband, Harold George Crase was a well known businessman (sourced from Trove) so I felt if he was Sybil's father / Step Father / Guardian, Sybil's marriage notice & cert. wouldn't have said J R Crase was her father, and acknowledges Harold in some way. Also checked Harold's tree & couldn't find a likely J R.
Sybil was living at the same address as Harold George's mother in law in Subiaco, perhaps he had little to do with her.
I would want to see this death certificate to see if there is any connection, particularly the mother's maiden surname. Findagrave suggests that it was an infant.
NSW Death
FORSTER, SYBIL G C
1132/1901
Father: GEORGE
Mother: EDITH A
CHATSWOOD
Died 3 Jan 1901
Debra :)
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I'm the Author of this subject & I'm completely lost, so I'll do a bit of back tracking!
There is a fixation among forum members that Harold George Crase is Sybil Edith Crase's father.
Repeating myself, but why has Sybil said her father is John Robert Crase from NSW in a newspaper marriage notice, and on her marriage certificate? It's also stated that her parents are dead - died pre 1923.
Edith Annie Forster, nee Douglas doesn't marry H G Crase until 1902 (Sybil born 1901). When Edith & Harold's divorce is aired in court, all Edith's dirty linen is aired. I presume an illegitimate child would be mentioned.
Marion K Kemp, Harold's 2nd wife was at Adelaide Conservatorium for 3 years, graduating in December 1903. During that time, Marion is performing in concerts etc. I doubt she's had time to have a baby to Harold G Crase, 9 years before she marries him.
Re Forster death certificate - note death recorded Jan 1901. Edith & George Forster were divorced in Dec 1898, after 6 months marriage, from Jan - June 1896. I need to check again for a Forster birth.
I have missed the fact that Sybil is living with Harold Crase's Mother in Law, in Subiaco, Perth. When? Address? Can someone please post that source?
Eleanor Crase. I agree it is possible she is a relation. Maybe even a sister - I can't find a birth record for her.
We have enough ideas & names on this forum post to confuse us all, without me adding Sybil's Adelaide Conservatorium Benefactor. She was a rich "old Lady" that I suspect helped many young ladies with musical talent.
So good to have lots of helpful input. Thanks everyone.
Valsgirl
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I'm the Author of this subject & I'm completely lost, so I'll do a bit of back tracking!
There is a fixation among forum members that Harold George Crase is Sybil Edith Crase's father.
Repeating myself, but why has Sybil said her father is John Robert Crase from NSW in a newspaper marriage notice, and on her marriage certificate? It's also stated that her parents are dead - died pre 1923.
Edith Annie Forster, nee Douglas doesn't marry H G Crase until 1902 (Sybil born 1901). When Edith & Harold's divorce is aired in court, all Edith's dirty linen is aired. I presume an illegitimate child would be mentioned.
Marion K Kemp, Harold's 2nd wife was at Adelaide Conservatorium for 3 years, graduating in December 1903. During that time, Marion is performing in concerts etc. I doubt she's had time to have a baby to Harold G Crase, 9 years before she marries him.
Re Forster death certificate - note death recorded Jan 1901. Edith & George Forster were divorced in Dec 1898, after 6 months marriage, from Jan - June 1896. I need to check again for a Forster birth.
I have missed the fact that Sybil is living with Harold Crase's Mother in Law, in Subiaco, Perth. When? Address? Can someone please post that source?
Eleanor Crase. I agree it is possible she is a relation. Maybe even a sister - I can't find a birth record for her.
We have enough ideas & names on this forum post to confuse us all, without me adding Sybil's Adelaide Conservatorium Benefactor. She was a rich "old Lady" that I suspect helped many young ladies with musical talent.
So good to have lots of helpful input. Thanks everyone.
Valsgirl
Hi there,
I have been following this thread closely. I am somewhat shocked that you feel that the members are fixated about Harold George. I don't read it that way at all. I do know it can be important to assemble possible candidates and to confirm or eliminate or leave as pending etc.
I am sure everyone is trying to help your quest. I know I have looked through my own extensive offline collection of NSW names. I have not YET found John Robert. I continue looking.
On the m.c. where Sybil nominates John Robert as her deceased father, what else is recorded about
:) her parents
:) her own origins
:) Her usual address and occupation
:) the clergy, denomination, address of ceremony
:) the witnesses
I have asked my ancient living relatives to read through this thread to see if there's anything they can add. That includes retired NSWBDM senior officers, clergy and archivists .
Patience, diligence and documentation should be sought out.
JM
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NSWBDM online index deaths
John J CRUSE, registered Newtown district in 1913. #10463
I have not looked for cemetery or for newspaper notices. His parents recorded on index as William & Catherine.
I can find William CRUISE at Station St, Newtown in that era.
Watch the spelling. Remember the bdm registers ate in longhand in that era, and on verbal info.. Some clerks wrote well, but alas some were scribblers
JM
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I'm the Author of this subject & I'm completely lost, so I'll do a bit of back tracking!
There is a fixation among forum members that Harold George Crase is Sybil Edith Crase's father.
Marion K Kemp, Harold's 2nd wife was at Adelaide Conservatorium for 3 years, graduating in December 1903. During that time, Marion is performing in concerts etc. I doubt she's had time to have a baby to Harold G Crase, 9 years before she marries him.
Valsgirl
In my discussion of Marion Madame KEMP I had not suggested or stated that Harold George CRASE was the father of Sybil.
You have assumed that was my interpretation, but you are mistaken.
My line of thought was that Marion was unmarried, and may well have had an ex-nuptial child who took the name CRASE at Marion's marriage.
This is not unusual.
Likewise, the same situation may apply to Edith Annie FORSTER (nee DOUGLAS) An ex-nuptial daughter who assumed the CRASE name upon Edith's marriage but as a result of the divorce went to the care of Edith's mother Mary Elizabeth DOUGLAS.
Sue
ADDING per your query.
Reply #12 and Reply #17 give the information about the address 117 Hay St.
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I do not know about divorce laws in that era except for NSW divorces. So I mention that Ex nuptials were not children of the subject marriage and thus the Divorce proceedings did not address them.
JM.
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This is a very interesting search.
Valsgirl, It is very helpful if you give us as much information as you have. You say that Sybil's Conservatorium benefactor was a "rich old lady' and you suspect that she helped many young ladies. This may be so BUT there may be another connection.
As you have seen, there are Rootschatters here with a wealth of experience and who have a superb track record. For example TreeSpirit (Reply #12) found addresses for Sybil in 1914 which may show that she was at the same address as a Mrs M Douglas - is this Edith A Douglas/Forster/Crase's mother?
You have discounted the idea that Edith may have been Sybil's mother as Edith did not marry H G Cruse until 1902; however he states in the report of the divorce case already quoted https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/207405844
that he had met Edith about 2 years before their marriage in 1902. So, it would seem possible that Edith may have had a child 1900-1902 - whether, given the picture painted by that newspaper report, H G Crase was the father or not.
Looking at records - Edith's child with George FORSTER died 3 January 1901, their divorce became absolute 24 January 1901, Edit to add - see below but I cannot see any notices re the actual filing for divorce. (Do I recall that it used to be 6 months from decree nisi to decree absolute?)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14371791
I cannot see a birth for the child whose death Debra found (Reply #36)
FORSTER, SYBIL G C
1132/1901
Father: GEORGE
Mother: EDITH A
CHATSWOOD
As to why Sybil might give what appears to be a fictitious father's name on her marriage record, plenty of speculations spring to mind. It is quite common for people to give incorrect information because they do not know the correct information or are trying to mislead.
Judith
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It is possible that Sybil was told incorrect information about her parents during her childhood.
Another possibility is that she has changed her parents names and details in order to cover up a less than illustrious upbringing.
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This is the reference for the filing of divorce by Edith from Frederick FORSTER, as already found by wivenhoe, November 1899. The petition states that Edith had deserted George.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14228366
Judith
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Perhaps not related at all, however it is interesting in 1910, Adelaide:
"WANTED someone living in city to take charge of little Girl, 6 years; 6/- per week all found. - Mrs. M. Douglas, G.P.O. 274-7"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article209996736
Do the numbers indicate a telephone number? There are a few other classified ads with this number.
Modified to add:
I might just add, as others have said, sometimes looking around a problem can throw up a clue that might open other doors. They may lead no where, or you might discover something wholly unexpected. :)
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Perhaps not related at all, however it is interesting in 1910, Adelaide:
"WANTED someone living in city to take charge of little Girl, 6 years; 6/- per week all found. - Mrs. M. Douglas, G.P.O. 274-7"
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article209996736
Do the numbers indicate a telephone number? There are a few other classified ads with this number.
Modified to add:
I might just add, as others have said, sometimes looking around a problem can throw up a clue that might open other doors. They may lead no where, or you might discover something wholly unexpected. :)
I think a post office box number
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Re Forster death certificate - note death recorded Jan 1901. Edith & George Forster were divorced in Dec 1898, after 6 months marriage, from Jan - June 1896. I need to check again for a Forster birth.
The actual dates for Edith and George's divorce are given in my replies #42 and #44
Looking at records - Edith's child with George FORSTER (Sybil G C FOSTER) died 3 January 1901, their divorce became absolute January 1901,
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14371791
The first court petition re this divorce was in November 1899 and stated that Edith had deserted George.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14228366
I can't see a birth for a suitable child named Sybil in NSW from 1896 to 1900 and no birth noted on Ancestry
Judith
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here are two permanent link thingy for the NSW State Archives INDEX for the 1899 files
https://records-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/permalink/f/1e5kcq1/INDEX1231210 George Frederick FORSTER as Petitioner, Edith Annie FORSTER as respondent.
https://records-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/permalink/f/1e5kcq1/INDEX1240597 George Frederick BELLIS as Petitioner, Edith Annie Forster as respondent.
In both instances the Divorce Number is 3353.
From the divorce file, who was George Frederick BELLIS?
JM
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Could it just be a mistake in the file?
I can't see anyone of that name mentioned anywhere in NSW although there is George Bellis who married a Mary Fennelly in 1878. There is a TROVE report of their divorce in May 1890
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/230601166
But I see no mention of him in 1899 - and he seems not to use a second forename.
Judith
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Maybe BELLIS was George Frederick's birth name and through a remarriage or such, he became known as FORSTER.
There is a birth in England
Births Sep 1877
BELLIS George Frederick
Ormskirk 8b/774
Sue
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Well, according to my ancient rellie who worked at Kingswood as an archivist, and who drew my attention to the two separately numbered permanent links, there needs to be an explanation in the actual archival records. He says it is very unlikely to be a a mis step in the index. One file may simply have a slip of paper referring to the other, but there will be a written explanation re the surname,
JM
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Another address for young Sybil CHASE:
128 Churchill Ave, Subiaco
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article79963484 (2nd column, near the bottom)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article79921232 (3rd column, bottom)
And won a prize for the painting 4 April 1914
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article79921230
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Excellent finds, maddys52
Going back to TreeSpirit's post #12 Sybil Crase writes to newspaper "Auntie Nell' in 1914 giving her address as 177 Hay St, Subiaco. TreeSpirit has also found 1915 Directory lists: “Douglas Mrs, M. 177 Hay st. Sub”
According to electoral rolls 1914 the Mrs M Douglas at 177 Hay st, Subiaco is actually Mary Elizabeth Douglas, the mother of Edith Annie Douglas/Forster/Crase.
I'm beginning to think that Edith Annie is the mother of Sybil and there are some events which may point to this.
Edith Annie Douglas, born 1876
Edith Annie DOUGLAS, 418/187, registered REDFERN,
parents: James Bryan(t) DOUGLAS, Mary Elizabeth (nee CARNE)
Edith Annie DOUGLAS married George F FORSTER, January 1, 1896 NSW
Their child Sybil G C FORSTER dies 3 Jan 1901, and the entry for her burial suggested that this child was aged 0-1. I cannot see a birth for this child.
Edith and George's divorce was mentioned on TROVE in November 1899; the petition stated that Edith had deserted George.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14228366
Edith and George's decree absolute was reported in the SMH 24 January, 1901.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14371791
Thus it seems possible that Edith had left George, perhaps in 1899.
In 1902 she marries Harold George CRASE in Perth.
Harold CRASE states in the report of his divorce case from Edith Annie https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/207405844
that he had met Edith about 2 years before their marriage in 1902. So, it would seem possible that Edith may have had a child 1900-1902 - whether, given the picture painted by that newspaper report, H G Crase was the father or not.
Just an aside - it's not unusual to find a child named after a previous sibling who has died so Sybil CRASE may have been named for the baby who died in 1901.
I have done a bit of digging re Edith Annie's family and her childhood must have been difficult. For example, her brother Herbert was admitted to the Sobraon, (a ship that served as all-boy public industrial school) in 1894 as he had been found wandering the street - father out of work and mother living separately with 3 other children. There's some other information about her family and I'm happy to post if you want it.
With this background - IF, indeed it is Sybil's parents/grandparents it is not surprising that Sybil would not wish to speak about it.
Obviously this is speculation but seems possible.
Judith
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Edith Douglas’s father had died in Sydney on 23 Dec 1910 (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15216448?searchTerm=douglas), but by late 1911 (Edith’s death) her mum was residing in WA according to various of Edith’s death notices (e.g. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28133796?searchTerm=douglas … FYI this page also contains a remembrance note for James from his “only loving daughter, Eunice” … the way it is phrased sounds a bit funny to me).
NB Sybil seems to have been living in the Perth area in August 1910 (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/26289209?searchTerm=sybil ), so could Mary have come to WA before her husband died?
I suppose that initially Mary might have lived in boarding houses and looked after Sybil while Sybil’s “possible” mum was in living and working in e.g. Boulder. Mary Elizabeth DOUGLAS and son Herbert James Douglas are also mentioned in the 1915-1917 electoral rolls as residing at 177 Hay street, Subiaco, so they seem to have lived there for a while before returning to NSW.
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1934 photo of Sybil:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/248967772?searchTerm=bennett
(nice to know what she looks like)
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When Rex Leland BENNETT dies in 1963, his wife is called “Barbara”, so I immediately though that she might be second wife.
However, when Sybil dies in 1991, her name is listed as Sybil Edith (Barbara) BENNETT!!
Huh?
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When Edith's brother Herbert was admitted to the Sabraon training ship in Sydney (a sort of reformatory) in 1894 their parents were already living apart although both in Redfern. There is a comment on his entry record that the father is unable to get work.
Re their father James Bryan(t) DOUGLAS:
From New South Wales, Australia, Hospital & Asylum Records
James Bryan Douglas, born1855, age 55
Admission or Discharge Date: 15 Feb 1910 at Liverpool, New South Wales,
Handwritten notes (difficult to decipher) include
Wife W A? (Question mark as shown on the record)
Brother: George, Railway Terrace Stanmore
Charles, Wagga
Children: Edith, 29, Mrs Crase, Leaderville WA
Emily, 27 Mrs Watson/Nelson?, Darlington St, Moore Park
Herbert, 25, Abercrombie St, Redfern
Francis, 23, c/o G I Simpson? 60 William St
(My question marks as I cannot easily read the handwritten record)
Elizabeth may have been in WA for some time before James' death.
James is buried at Rookwood with the baby daughter Edith May who died in 1875, and another son James Henry Carne DOUGLAS, born and died 1881.
Judith
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..Trying to find a birth record for Sybil Edith Crase. Born about 1901, possibly in Australia.
.......
October 1923 Adelaide SA. Marriage Notice (Trove) Sybil (AKA Billie) parents are reported to be "Late Mr & Mrs J R Crase, Sydney)
Marriage Certificate details also show Father - John Robert Crase.
.....
I have NOT found Sybil as aka Billie
But I had not considered the possibility that she was Barbara..... .... now I wonder if she was Babs ... as in the columnist in the newspaper ...
Well found Judith and TreeSpirit.
JM
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Umm .... Bellis .... v .... Billie .....ummm
Speculation upon speculation but ....
JM
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There are various mentions of "Billie" Crase on trove in relation to the Conservatorium in Adelaide from memory (don't have access to my computer at the moment).
Also from memory, various reports about Edith Crase's brother Herbert James deserting his wife and going to Subiaco in early 1900s.
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Sybil's nicknames included Bill Billie & Barbara. - source family info.
Please be aware that one of Sybil's sons and her daughter in law are still living.
Valsgirl
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Just returning to a few salient points here and building on the findings of many.
Edith Annie- divorce proceedings re FORSTER began Nov 1899. Absolute Jan 1901.
Included in the reports was her statement she would be going to Singapore!
Harold George in his own divorce proceedings, states he met Edith Annie around 1900.
He married her in 1902.
In Rely #24 , Wivenhoe mentions a shipping arrival , Mr and Mrs H G CRASE with child. December 1904
The identity of the child has not been resolved.
The original image here for ancestry subscribers
https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/5378/images/32704_334541-00061?treeid=&personid=&rc=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LiA36070&_phstart=successSource&pId=1105674
shows I think, the child was female.
A female child of the couple had died in April 1904.
I wonder about the trip to Singapore. Perhaps it was a planned trip with Harold?
Sue
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"one of Sybil's sons and her daughter in law are still living."
This is a son whose birth certificate would record age and birthplace of mother Sybil?
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Sybil's nicknames included Bill Billie & Barbara. - source family info.
Please be aware that one of Sybil's sons and her daughter in law are still living.
Valsgirl
Hi Valsgirl,
I have again read back, over and over, on this thread. I am absolutely sure that no one has caused any reason for you to suspect that any of the many regular RChatters have overlooked that very significant fact. I can also confirm that if you have concerns that any of us are encroaching even in an inadvertent way, that your best option is to use the Report to Moderator Button.
In reading back, I am aware that there are many questions from earlier than Sybil's 1923 marriage and that most of them have been ignored. For example, Edith's divorce heard in the NSW Supreme Court - do you have those two files? The dates that Judith and I have found differ from your posts - not by years and years, but they do differ. Do you have the marriage certificate for Sybil's 1923 marriage? If so, what is actually recorded on that document? Surely all of the people named on that document are NO LONGER LIVING. Yes, I realise it is a marriage registered in South Australia and therefore it will have scant details, but what is actually recorded on it? Yes, you have given some of the information earlier in the thread, but it may well be useful if it were actually typed up in the one place, and an exact transcription of the official record.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368744.0
SA marriages 1908-1963
Date and Place of Marriage
Bride and Bridegrooms Names, Ages, Place and Country of Birth
Trade
Residence
Father's names
In your opening post you seem unsure of Sybil's place and country of birth, but it ought to be recorded on the m.c.
Have you sought a gentle way to approach the living regarding the non historic NSW birth cert information about their mother's details. I ask this in a rhetorical way, I do not seek to intrude.
Please know that RChatters care about the importance of protecting the sensitive personal information about each and every person, our own ancestors and the ancestors of strangers. NSW has strong protections for the personal information about all who live in NSW. In a legal sense, each of us has the lawful expectation to privacy of the individual. That extends to each individual's own name.
JM
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Hi Valsgirl,
I am in full agreement with all that JM says above, but I am wondering whether your concern for the living offspring of your subject person is about the content of the information being posted.
I very well know that there can be shocks to the living in the course of uncovering the life of ancestors. I have had a few ::)
Even today, some are still upset by implications of ex-marital relations and subsequent births and such events do seem to be the current direction of this inquiry.
If you fear that people will not like or be upset by what is uncovered, then you really should close the thread right now in my opinion.
Sue
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Among those who volunteered to serve in the Australian Imperial Forces in WWI was a lad born in Rockleigh, S.A in 1894. His 61 page digitised service record is readily available online via the naa.gov.au website.
From S.A. online genealogy he married in the 1930s to an Eleanor CRASE. His wife's given name was Eleanor. She may well have been an official witness at Sybil's 1923 marriage. I mention this as an aside, as that same naa.gov.au website shows a file for an Eleanor DOWNING, beneficiary of Seabert Crawford Muir DOWNING, service no. 3013. The contents range from 1973 to 1987. The file is on open access and is located in Sydney.
Seabert's death is listed on the INDEX of Genealogy SA for 1973. Eleanor's death is on the same index but for 1987.
https://www.naa.gov.au/
and
https://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-database-search
JM
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Sydney Sands Alpha directory 1905 (so closing date for entries would be Oct 1904)
Mrs A CRASE, 59 Wentworth Park Rd, Glebe.
JM
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This should be helpful in working back into the early years for Sybil before her marriage. I am not actually certain that the surnames of the witnesses were DOWNES or CRASE. It could be Downey or Crare. My knowledge of South Australian families is sparse. I also wonder if I have the clergyman's surname correct, but I doubt it would be significant to this quest.
So here is my transcription of the church record of the 1923 marriage, the image is readily available, no charge at family search.
Diocese of Adelaide
Marriage solemnized in the Chapel of the Collegiate School of St Peter, South Australia
Rex Leland BENNETT, age 27, born Snow Town, South Australia, Bachelor, Army Officer, residing Prospect, father as Thomas Charles BENNETT
Sybil Edith CRASE, age 22, born Sydney NSW, Spinster, residing Walkerville, father as John Robert CRASE
Were married in this church by banns this 27th day of October, 1923 by me, Wm H Irwin
In the presence of H Downes of Norwood (and) E Crase of Medindie.
Bride and Groom both signed RL BENNETT and Sybil Edith CRASE.
Film @ 007720194, Image 661 of 733.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BX-X1NF?i=660
JM
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Hi all,
I see the green tick against the topic now so we know Valsgirl has all the information she wishes at present.
I for one am happy to respect that and hope the descendants of Sybil have been helped on the way to understanding her background.
The statements on her marriage certificate and the associated newspaper marriage announcements regarding her parents are not supported in any located record.
Sue