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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: yecartmannew on Saturday 26 February 22 17:00 GMT (UK)
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Happy Saturday everyone.
I have Henry Mantell m. Catherine Alexander on 25th May 1871 in Birmingham. All information I have for Henry is after the marriage, but consensus is that he was born about 1845 in Birmingham (Marriage cert and several census, etc)
I would like to find a birth record for Henry.
Henry's marriage cert lists his father as Thomas Mantell, deceased, Millwright. I cannot find much definitive info for Thomas except an 1841 census record in Hopton Wafers, Shropshire. This does fit with other members of the family that I am trying to connect, so could well be him. Thomas is 65 and no other household members. I can't find Thomas in 1851 or any later census.
So I think Thomas married between 1841 and 1844/45 when Henry was born. (late age marriages seem to be a thing in this family so not completely strange), and died before 1851.
Can anyone offer any guidance or find any information on Thomas, or records for Henry before 1871?
I would be so grateful to smash this wall as it is probably the key to connecting the other family members who are currently "floating".
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Henry is a hair dresser in 1861.
RG 9/2161/78/20
In the household of William Pemberton, 240 Newtown Row, Birmingham
Henry Mantell, serv., 15, hair dresser, Warwickshire, Birmingham
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Henry is a hair dresser in 1861.
RG 9/2161/78/20
In the household of William Pemberton, 240 Newtown Row, Birmingham
Henry Mantell, serv., 15, hair dresser, Warwickshire, Birmingham
Thank you. This fits perfectly.
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1871 census has Henry born in France??
Piece number 2973
Birth county -
Folio 14
Birth county as transcribed FRANCE
Page 24
Birth place France
Schedule 103
Occ-Hairdresser
John
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1871 census has Henry born in France??
Piece number 2973
Birth county -
Folio 14
Birth county as transcribed FRANCE
Page 24
Birth place France
Schedule 103
Occ-Hairdresser
In which case....
1851 census in Aston Workhouse
HO 107/2062/283/3
James Mantle, pauper, 9, scholar, France
Henry do, do, 4, do do,
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1871 census has Henry born in France??
Piece number 2973
Birth county -
Folio 14
Birth county as transcribed FRANCE
Page 24
Birth place France
Schedule 103
Occ-Hairdresser
John
Thanks John, That looks like it probably fits.
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The 1841 entry for Hopton Wafers you mention - that Thomas was a collier - not a millwright
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1871 census has Henry born in France??
Piece number 2973
Hmm, thank you, but it starts to look a bit more unlikely. I know ages on census are approximate, but surely there is quite a differece between a 4 and 6 year old?
I will take a look though. Still need to find some info on Thomas then and wife , mother for henry
Birth county -
Folio 14
Birth county as transcribed FRANCE
Page 24
Birth place France
Schedule 103
Occ-Hairdresser
In which case....
1851 census in Aston Workhouse
HO 107/2062/283/3
James Mantle, pauper, 9, scholar, France
Henry do, do, 4, do do,
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I don't know whether WH records for that period are available at the RO. You could try giving them a ring in case there is any more info on them.
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I'm not 100 % convinced that the France-born Henry is the right fellow. I know it all fits with age and occupation, but on the 1851*, the last column for afflictions such as deaf/dumb/blind is ticked off for both Henry and (presumably his older brother) James.
On the 1871 census for Henry Mantle born France, it indicates the affliction as number "1", which the column header indicates as "deaf and dumb".
All the later censuses that are your Henry "for sure" have no affliction indicated. On the 1911, there is lines drawn through that column indication no afflictions, so at least on that one, it wasn't an oversight of not filling out all info.
*Edit: corrected typo for year of census
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bbart, can you please give a reference for the 1861 census you refer too please.
John
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Gah, sorry John, I meant 1851, not 1861. *slaps forehead*.
JenB gave a reference for the 1861 in reply 2, but I haven't been able to find it for some reason.
I shall correct my post as not to confuse anyone else!
Edit: Found it, and as it has the spelling of "Mantell" and no afflictions indicated, this census could very well be the right fellow.
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Ah, so, confusingly there might be two chaps called Henry Mantell/Mantle who are both hairdressers, one born in France and one in Birmingham?
Can we find the French one in 1861 in order to eliminate him?
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Hi everyone, and thanks for your hard work.
I dont think the 1951 workhouse henry is mi e. In later tecords there is a Henry Mantell circulating in the same area and time frame as my Henry but who is a milkseller and definitely not well off.
My Henry does quite well for himself as a gentlemans hairdresser and chiropodist.
I think the 1861 might be correct but the place of birth has coincidentaly been transcribed wrong. It doesnt quite look like France to me.
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I think the 1861 might be correct but the place of birth has coincidentaly been transcribed wrong. It doesnt quite look like France to me
Please see reply #1 :)
The 1861 census has him born in ‘Warwickshire, Birmingham’
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Throwing this into the mix if I may.
The 1851 census has a James** & Henry in the workhouse. Possibly both parents have died or abandoned children. Henry born c 1845
dq 1838 a Humphrey Mantell (occupation Millwright) marries a Louisa Claybrook/Claybrock. His father James Mantell occ Millwright. Henry records his father as a Millwright at marriage
Baptism of a Humphrey MANTLE 1.12.1816 Hopton Wafers Shropshire. Parents James & Sarah.
1841 census HO107 1001 10 13 has
Humphrey Mantell 20 not born in county
Louisa 25 not born in county
Thomas* 2 not born in county
James** 6 months born in county __is this possibly the James in 1851 census
Buried 24.8.1848 Louise Mantell aged 32 Wife of Humphrey Mantell
No sign of Humphrey after her death(that I can find)
Thomas* Mansell in 1851 census with his uncle James Mantell. James born c1810 what looks like Hopton Watfers, Shropshire.
If our Henry was corn c 1845 and by 1851 is in the workhouse he may not have known his father forenmae.
It does not answer I know where he may have been born.
John
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Ah, so, confusingly there might be two chaps called Henry Mantell/Mantle who are both hairdressers, one born in France and one in Birmingham?
Can we find the French one in 1861 in order to eliminate him?
Sorry Jen, I meant 1871, Hairdresser, France
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If you look at that 1851 Workhouse entry you will notice the large number of ticks in that column that should be for blind etc.
If you look carefully it appears the ticks are all in columns where the person was born outside Warwickshire.
I suspect the people are not disabled but ticks have been put in the wrong column.
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If you look at that 1851 Workhouse entry you will notice the large number of ticks in that column that should be for blind etc.
If you look carefully it appears the ticks are all in columns where the person was born outside Warwickshire.
I suspect the people are not disabled but ticks have been put in the wrong column.
Yes you're right. Looking at the previous and subsequent pages the ticks have been put in the margin rather than in the disability column and also apply only to people born outside Warwickshire.
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Throwing this into the mix if I may.
The 1851 census has a James** & Henry in the workhouse. Possibly both parents have died or abandoned children. Henry born c 1845
dq 1838 a Humphrey Mantell (occupation Millwright) marries a Louisa Claybrook/Claybrock. His father James Mantell occ Millwright. Henry records his father as a Millwright at marriage
Baptism of a Humphrey MANTLE 1.12.1816 Hopton Wafers Shropshire. Parents James & Sarah.
1841 census HO107 1001 10 13 has
Humphrey Mantell 20 not born in county
Louisa 25 not born in county
Thomas* 2 not born in county
James** 6 months born in county __is this possibly the James in 1851 census
Buried 24.8.1848 Louise Mantell aged 32 Wife of Humphrey Mantell
No sign of Humphrey after her death(that I can find)
Thomas* Mansell in 1851 census with his uncle James Mantell. James born c1810 what looks like Hopton Watfers, Shropshire.
If our Henry was corn c 1845 and by 1851 is in the workhouse he may not have known his father forenmae.
It does not answer I know where he may have been born.
John
Argg, I'm even more confused now.
Things I know for sure:
1. Our Henry Mantell b. abt 1845 in Birmingham (multiple later sources all agree on this, but no actual birth record)
2. Another Henry Mantell around the same age and location found in several documents. He is a milkseller and seems to be poor.
3. Pretty sure Our Henry (OH) was not disabled. He went on to own a successful hair dressing business, employing others, and there is no family lore about any disability
4. OH marries Catherine Alexander in 1871 and states on his BC father Thomas, deceased, Mill Wright.
5. Somewhere in the family I'm fiarly certain there is a connection to Hopton Wafers through other family members. I have been trying to connect the branch for some time and I think Henry's father Thomas might be the key.
6. James and Sarah are the furthest ancestors of the rogue branch, so they might be the common ancestor but I have only so far found 2 children for them, Elizabeth and Charles. Looks like I might be able to add Humphrey now.
Hypothesis:
1. Thomas Mantell on 1841 census in Hopton Wafers is correct, but occupation is wrong, OR occupation given by Henry on marriage is wrong
2. James b 1771 and Thomas b.1776 could be brothers? This would make the relationship between Joan and Creighton 3rd cousins. (I thought they were closer than that though)
Family tree is here if anyone is interested. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/181280334/family/familyview?cfpid=282360063694
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If you read mine and Jen B's posts you will see Henry was not disabled, tick in wrong place
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OH marries Catherine Alexander in 1871 and states on his BC father Thomas, deceased, Mill Wright.
The marriage cert also has a witness named Priscilla Mantell. Have you followed her up as a possible lead?
In 1871 there is a Priscilla Mantell with husband Charles, born Hopton Wafers.
With them is a 30 year-old nephew James. Is this the same James who was in the workhouse in 1851?
RG 10/3099/96/27
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OH marries Catherine Alexander in 1871 and states on his BC father Thomas, deceased, Mill Wright.
The marriage cert also has a witness named Priscilla Mantell. Have you followed her up as a possible lead?
In 1871 there is a Priscilla Mantell with husband Charles, born Hopton Wafers.
With them is a 30 year-old nephew James. Is this the same James who was in the workhouse in 1851.
RG 10/3099/96/27
Yes, I have Pricilla b1822 mariied to Charles Mantel b.1820 (Son of James Mantell and Sarah).
If that is correct and nephew James is the same one from the workhouse, it makes sense that Henry is also the same one. So I need to try and find all children of James and Sarah to figure out which one is Henry and James father. Still don't have any idea where the France thing fits though, unless the mother was French perhaps...............
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So I'm wondering, did James and Sarah have a son Thomas. If he then ended up having 2 children in France (James and Henry) maybe thats why i cant find any tecords for him.....
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Aha, I just found John Thomas Mantle, Father James Mantle and Mother Sarah, Hopton Wafers, 1880.
I will do a bit more digging that way and see what pops up.
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I wonder if the Thomas Mantell referred to in post 15 by John might be worth exploring further.
This is the 1851 census for him showing as nephew of James Mantell living in West Bromwich
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGGZ-TPJ
James Mantell's place of birth is clearly shown as Hopton Wafers in the following censuses. There is, I note, a baptism for a James Mantle 22 July 1810 in Neen Savage - parents James and Sarah. Neen Savage is very near to Hopton Wafers.
A search in the newspaper archive shows a notice in the Birmingham Journal 20 July 1867 of the marriage of Thomas Mantell. The wording is interesting as it states Thomas Mantell, nephew of James Mantell, coach builder. Like Henry's it was a non conformist wedding.
Further newspaper notices from 1870 show that James Mantell was retiring from his coach building business in favour of his nephew Thomas.
James Mantell died in West Bromwich in 1880 aged 69 and left a will - might it be worth a punt in case Henry is mentioned?
( Also worth noting that the James showing as nephew to Charles in the 1871 census has the occupation of coach painter - presumably coach builders required coach painters!).
William
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For info only but still trying to build a picture.
Looking at your tree re Charles Mantell born c1820. You have him on 1851census with sister Elizabeth and father James aged 80.
James Mantell died aged 85 in 1853 Birmingham
Charles married Priscilla BENNETT sq 1854.
Charles Mantell died aged 81 mq 1891 Kings Norton
Elizabeth Mantell died aged 57 sq 1869 w. Bromwich Elizabeth with her brother James in 1861 census both born Hopton Wafers.
Going to try and follow Thomas c 1839 from 1851 census to 1881 census.
John
Added
Thomas in 1871
Piece: 2985
Folio: 116
Page number: 2
Household Members Age Relationship
Thomas Mantell
31 Head
Sarah Mantell
32 Wife
Ernest Hollyoak Mantell 2 Son
1881
Piece: 2852
Folio: 14
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Mansell 41
Sarah Mansell 42
Ernest Hollyoak Mansell 12
Edith Mary Mansell 9
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It would appear that James and Sarah had another son. So far we have
James c1810 - 1880
Elizabeth c1812-1869
Henry c1813--possibly 1861 aged 49 = c1812
Humphrey c1816-??
Charles c1820-1891
This Henry appears I believe on 1841 census ref 1142 13 19 occupation journeyman millwright and 1851 census ref 2023 334 22, occupation Millwright. By 1861 census 2016 53 7 Elizabeth is a widow.
Believe this is Henry's death
MANTLE, HENRY age 49
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in STAFFORD Volume 06B Page 1
John
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Very interesting 1851 census.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKK-69T
John
added
possible baptism
First name(s) Thomas
Country England
Last name Mantle
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Gender Male
Father's last name Mantle
Birth year -
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Birth place -
Mother's last name -
Baptism year 1817
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Baptism date 16 Nov 1817
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Place Hopton Wafers
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
County Shropshire
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Thanks Guys, you are all awesome.
I will take a good look at all this info as soon as I get chance, and hopefully can finally nail down the connection missing link.
My Mum is terminally ill and i would like to be able to tell her the exact relationship between Creighton and her mother Joan, the exact nature of which has always escaped us. I feel like we could be close now.
I'm really grateful for all the info you have found.
Regards
Tracey
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the exact relationship between Creighton and her mother Joan, the exact nature of which has always escaped us. I feel like we could be close now.
I'm obviously missing something here - who are Creighton and Joan, please?
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the exact relationship between Creighton and her mother Joan, the exact nature of which has always escaped us. I feel like we could be close now.
I'm obviously missing something here - who are Creighton and Joan, please?
Sorry, that was rude of me. I have added the link to my ancestry tree and then blithely carried on muttering as if everybody had seen it.
Joan Mantell was my grandmother, herself the granddaughter of our Henry b.1845.
Charles Creighton Mantell was a relation, but currently on the floating tree as we cannot confirm the exact relationship.
Best guess from the family is that Creighton and Henry Jnr b.1872 and son of Our Henry were cousins.
Creighton died intestate and there was a request for family members to come forward. Joan tried but was apparently "1 relationship too far removed" and unable to claim, so the assets went to the Crown.
My Mum remembers being taken to visit Mad Uncle (honorary title) Creighton in the psychiatric hospital when she was a child and remembers him fondly as being a bit strange but kindly.
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Deleted
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There’s this one
Charles Creighton Mantell
March Q 1890
Birmingham
Vol 6D page 57
Mother’s maiden name Wilson
Death registration in 1975 with birthdate of 25 December 1890
He’s on the 1891 census with parents Charles and Annie. There’s also a brother called Charles who appears to have died later on.
Possible marriage in Preston of Charles Mantell to Annie Eliza Wilson in 1884
Charles (the father) was born about 1858 in Birmingham.
His father, also Charles, was born about 1820 was married to Priscilla. This Charles was born about 1820 in HoptonWafers Shropshire. (Taken from census returns)
There is a baptism in Hopton Wafers on 30 April 1820 for Charles Mantell son of James and Sarah.
The above needs further research to prove it but could it fit?
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There’s this one
Charles Creighton Mantell
March Q 1890
Birmingham
Vol 6D page 57
Mother’s maiden name Wilson
Death registration in 1975 with birthdate of 25 December 1890
Possible marriage in Preston of Charles Mantell to Annie Eliza Wilson in 1884
These are the correct people:
Charles Creighton Mantell b.28 Dec 1889 b'ham d. 28 Jun 1975 Rubery hospital, never married
His father Charles Mantell b. 1858 b'ham d. 3 may 1926 b'ham m. Oct 1884 Peston to Annie Eliza Wilson
His grandfather Charles Mantell b.1820 Hopton Wafers d.sometime after 1891 m. Pricilla Bennett
His great grandfather James Mantell b.1771 Cleobury Mortimer d. Sometime after 1851 m Sarah (possibly last name ew)
Then we have:
Joan Lily Mantell b.21 Oct 1918 B'ham d.28 Sep 1985 Malvern, m.18 Sept 1939 Harold Maurice Trigg
Her father Henry Mantell b.5 Oct 1872 B'ham d.17 May 1944 B'ham m.31 Jan 1917 Marie Turbefield
Her grandfather Henry Mantell b.abt 1845 B'ham d.Jul 1927 B'ham m. 25 May 1871 Carrs Lane Capel, Birmingham to Catherine Alexander
Her great grandfather as given on Henry and Catherine's marriage certificate is Thomas Mantell, deceased, Millwright
I haven't had chance to evaluate or log any of the info found on this thread yet but lots of it looks like it might be helpful.
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Your Henry born about 1845 is a bit of a mystery. I can’t see a birth registration for him. I have now found him on the 1861 census aged 15 a hairdresser born Birmingham. Do you have a birth certificate or a baptism for him?
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Your Henry born about 1845 is a bit of a mystery. I can’t see a birth registration for him. I have now found him on the 1861 census aged 15 a hairdresser born Birmingham. Do you have a birth certificate or a baptism for him?
That was what we were originally asked to look for :)
I mentioned the 1861 census for him in reply #1.
It’s still a bit of a mystery.
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Your Henry born about 1845 is a bit of a mystery. I can’t see a birth registration for him. I have now found him on the 1861 census aged 15 a hairdresser born Birmingham. Do you have a birth certificate or a baptism for him?
No, the earliest i have dicumented for him is 1871, then masses of info later. Hiwever several lines if enquiry ha e been mentioned up thread which may be helpfull, i just hav'nt had time to look properly .
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I wonder if the Thomas Mantell referred to in post 15 by John might be worth exploring further.
This is the 1851 census for him showing as nephew of James Mantell living in West Bromwich
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGGZ-TPJ
James Mantell's place of birth is clearly shown as Hopton Wafers in the following censuses. There is, I note, a baptism for a James Mantle 22 July 1810 in Neen Savage - parents James and Sarah. Neen Savage is very near to Hopton Wafers.
A search in the newspaper archive shows a notice in the Birmingham Journal 20 July 1867 of the marriage of Thomas Mantell. The wording is interesting as it states Thomas Mantell, nephew of James Mantell, coach builder. Like Henry's it was a non conformist wedding.
Further newspaper notices from 1870 show that James Mantell was retiring from his coach building business in favour of his nephew Thomas.
James Mantell died in West Bromwich in 1880 aged 69 and left a will - might it be worth a punt in case Henry is mentioned?
( Also worth noting that the James showing as nephew to Charles in the 1871 census has the occupation of coach painter - presumably coach builders required coach painters!).
William
I can't find the probate / will for James on the gov probate page, but I can see it on ancestry. I don't normally have problems finding probate / wills. What a puzzle...
Edit, found it now and have ordered a copy.
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If you simply search for Mant or Mant* it should come up ( I had the same problem with my Postle ancestors - typing the full surname produced zero results!).
The entry is for James Mantell 3 December The will of James Mantell late of West Bromwich in the county of Stafford who died 6 March 1880 at West Bromwich was proved at Lichfield by Elizabeth Reeves Mantell of West Bromwich Widow the Relict one of the Executors.
While I am here on the subject of wills I note that the Probate Calendar for Charles Creighton Mantell uses the expression administration with will. Have you obtained these documents although, as I understand it and others who have contributed to the thread may correct me on this, you might simply receive the letters of administration if you apply for them.
This may be a red herring but have you researched Louisa Smith b c 1849 who would appear to have been living with Charles Creighton Mantell and his father? ( see 1921 census free index and 1939 reg). She died in 1943, her probate entry saying she was of 21 Cregoe Street, probate to Joseph Edwin Winter, retired commercial clerk.
William
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If you simply search for Mant or Mant* it should come up ( I had the same problem with my Postle ancestors - typing the full surname produced zero results!).
The entry is for James Mantell 3 December The will of James Mantell late of West Bromwich in the county of Stafford who died 6 March 1880 at West Bromwich was proved at Lichfield by Elizabeth Reeves Mantell of West Bromwich Widow the Relict one of the Executors.
While I am here on the subject of wills I note that the Probate Calendar for Charles Creighton Mantell uses the expression administration with will. Have you obtained these documents although, as I understand it and others who have contributed to the thread may correct me on this, you might simply receive the letters of administration if you apply for them.
This may be a red herring but have you researched Louisa Smith b c 1849 who would appear to have been living with Charles Creighton Mantell and his father? ( see 1921 census free index and 1939 reg). She died in 1943, her probate entry saying she was of 21 Cregoe Street, probate to Joseph Edwin Winter, retired commercial clerk.
William
Thank you, yes I found it by entering Mant.
Regarding Creighton s will, it's sad and fascinating. He wrote the will in 1927 shortly after his own father died. Unfortunately he later was committed to a psychiatric hospital so would not have been deemed sound enough to change it. By the time he died everybody mentioned in the will had pre deceased him.
Louisa Smith was the family housekeeper (started as a Mother’s help ) and was very close to Creighton.
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I'm just after your thoughts if possible please.
As above, Henry Mantell b. abt 1845 is on the 1971 Census (which was taken on 2nd April) as lodging at Wellington Road, Birmingham
A month later, on 25th May he marries Catherine and gives his address on the marriage certificate as 214 Bristol Street, Birmingham.
The distance between the 2 is almost 4 miles which is around an hour on foot or 30 - 45 minutes on a horse drawn omnibus.
My question is, how likely is this? How far would someone have commuted for work in those days?
As this record also gives a birth place of France (only other place for this fact is the 1851 census) is it probable they are the same person or more likely to be 2 separate people?
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Addresses given on marriage are not always the person's permanent address.
Did they marry in C of E church?
If so as it the parish church of Catherine?
If they lived in separate parishes and admitted it then banns would have to be read in both parishes, if the person who lived in the opposite parish could come up with an address in the parish where the marriage was to take place then Banns would only have to be read in the 1 parish.
My father did this in the 1930s
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As per your last post was he aged 126 on the 1971 census ;D ;D ;D
John
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As per your last post was he aged 126 on the 1971 census ;D ;D ;D
John
Long lived family, ours ;) :-[
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Hello Everyone
I know this is a bit of a Zombie thread now, but I just wanted to let those of you who helped out before know of my update.
I have managed to track down the following French Birth Certificate for Henry. I have no idea what it says as I don't speak French and am yet to get it translated, but the information I can work out deepens the mystery.
I was almost sure that Henry's father was in fact Humphrey, and he had incorrectly given the name of Thomas for a father on his marriage certificate.
Well looking at this birth entry, it does seem to show the father as Thomas. Confusingly though, Louisa Claybrook is noted, I think as mother.
So, Did Humphrey and Louisa move to France, where he started going by the name of Thomas. Maybe that's why we can't find any later information for Humphrey?
Anyway, next step for me is to get the entry translated but I just thought someone might be interested.
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Translation is to be found in this (new) thread ;)
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=889063.msg7625679#msg7625679