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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: popsit on Thursday 24 February 22 22:42 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I have been on this message board many years ago and thought I will try it again as I am still with my brick wall. I am still looking for parents, birth or anything that pertains to my query. Because of the great fire records were lost, however I have been told I must now try parish records as some originals will/might be able to be found.Here goes.
I have a William Orr marrying a Mary Toal on the 21st of April 1853 in the parish church of Mullabrack Armagh. He was 37 years old so his birth would be around 1816 (so many years each side).The Orr's lived in and around this area. I also have an 1810 marriage of a William orr marrying a Mary Quin/quinn in the same area. I have been led to believe these maybe my william's parent. On the marriage cert above William's father is also William and is a farmer. His wife Mary's father was Alex Toal a labourer possibly on the Orr farm. I have everything going forward and have spent lots of time trying to find any little scrap going backwards.Please if there is anyone who maybe has access to parish records can I ask for your help.Anything woud be very much appreciated.
I have no siblings for William marrying Mary Toal. Feel free to ask me any question if I have left anything out that might help. Fingers very much crossed.
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The marriage in 1853 indicates that William was from Ballygroobany in the parish of Mullabrack. Mary was from Ballyloughan, Richhill.
By the time of Griffiths Valuation (taken about 1863-63 in County Armagh), there is only a Mary Orr in Ballygroobany who may be the Mary above or may be William's mother.
Tenant
Family Name 1 ORR
Forename 1 MARY
Landlord
Family Name 2 HILL
Forename 2 DAVID
Location
County ARMAGH
Barony FEWS, LOWER
Union ARMAGH
Parish MULLAGHBRACK
Townland BALLYGROOBANY
Place Name BALLYGROOBANY
Place Type TOWNLAND
Publication Details
Position on Page 5
Printing Date 1864
Act 15&16
Sheet Number 13
Map Reference 4
By the 1869 revision, the land is marked as vacant.
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Hi,
First thanks lots for your reply however I should have mentioned that I did have that valuation and it looks like it could be my Mary, however as you know with genealogy one must prove as much as one can that the person is yours. I also think I have the copy of her death got from irish free records but it tells me nothing except again it could be mine as age definitely fits. For fear of being greedy I might have to put another request on for any info regarding where she maybe buried. I have been led to believe that she maybe in a very old cemetery in the area.Also possibly buried with or near her husband William who it looks like has died before her as she is a widow. Her son I speak of in my query came to NZ after 1861 as that is the time his last son was born.His wife came out in 1864. There are so many questions to ask hence asking for help. All I need is a little thread then hopefully I can run with it. Where did Mary (the wife who came out here in 1864 for instance where did she live until 1864 was it on the Orr farm, apparently the Orr,s were fairly well off. Once again thank you for your time answering, your answer had a wee bit more than the valuation I have.
Carol Orr/NZ
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This is not very clear. Can you please give full name to people.
"Her son I speak of in my query came to NZ after 1861 as that is the time his last son was born.His wife came out in 1864. "
Can you identify the birth of the child born (where?) 1861....father's name...mother's name.
Whose wife came out (to NZ?) in 1864?
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Original query is for a William Orr and a Mary Toal married in 1853 who later went out to New Zealand as outlined by original poster.
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Griffiths shows that Mary Orr only had a house, no land but Mary may have moved to that house after William died or son William left for NZ so likely only had a small tenancy.
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Original query is for a William Orr and a Mary Toal married in 1853 who later went out to New Zealand as outlined by original poster.
Thank you Eileen
carol orr
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Ok,
Mainly for Eileen. The marriage of William (possible middle name John) Orr and Mary (no middle name) in 1853 are the two I am working on.They had three children all born in Armagh Mullabrack, they are as follows:
John William b. 1858 mullabrack
Mary Ann b. 1854 as above
Thomas b. 1861 as above
I do not have any birth certs as Im told I wont be able to get them.William above was the one who came to NZ for gold mining but left that and joined the military settlers war against maori. He was promised one acre in town and fifty acres in rural area in liu of wages.I am looking for his parents back in Ireland and have found a William Orr marrying a Mary Quin/nn in 1810 2nd August Mullabrack.the curate was a william Barker.Because of the fire that happened I am told many records were burnt making it hard to find anyone.Getting back to the William married in 1853 his father was also william and a farmer. I would like to know if the Mary in the griffths valuation 1863 was my Mary and mother to William who married in 1853. By that time, if she is mine, because she was a widow by then had her husband also been a William (father to the one in the 1853 marriage) .All boiled down I am hoping to find out the parents of the William married in 1853 and maybe his siblings and which cemetery might they be buried in. I hope this is clearer
Carol Orr/NZ
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I think you are going about this in the wrong way or else you do have further information that you haven't posted yet. You need to start with the facts and work back step by step but it's possible much of the information you need to search in Irish records will be in N.Z. records.
William Orr (c1816), son of William Orr a farmer, m.(21 Apr.1853 Mullabrack Church of Ireland) Mary Toal (c1832)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1853/09441/5420329.pdf
1. Mary Ann Orr (1854 Mullabrack)
2. John William Orr (1858 Mullabrack)
3. Thomas Orr (1861 Mullabrack)
The marriage gives William's residence as Ballygroobany- it may not be where he was born or where his parents lived but it's where he was living when he got married.
What details are listed for William's birthdate/place & parents on his death certificate?
There will be no birth certificates for the children born in Ireland since civil registration of births didn't start until 1864. For earlier dates you need to see if church records survive.
Since Orr is a very common surname in this area you'll need to be careful or else you could end up tracing the wrong family.
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Link to earlier thread looking for information on Mary Orr, a widow, who died in 1871-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=798527.msg6557684#msg6557684
Here's that death certificate- she died at Rathdrumgran (Loughall civil parish) in Richhill district and the informant was a James Orr of same place.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1871/020759/7282705.pdf
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No proof that the death of Mary Orr in 1871 is the one shown in Griffiths around 1864, so I would put that one aside for now. The marriage of William in 1853 gives his residence as Ballygoobany where we do find a Mary Orr in Griffiths. If William went out to New Zealand first and his wife Mary followed, this may be her as the land is then marked vacant at the next revision of the books in 1869. The wedding took place in the Church of Ireland parish of Mullabrack, so you may find the baptisms for the children there along with a list of burials in the same church. The baptisms and marriages are available for research at PRONI (not online) so you may have to hire a researcher to have a look at these for you:
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/church.php?civilparishid=396&civilparish=Mullaghbrack&search_type=full
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I would agree with what Eileen has just posted but would add that marriages usually take place in the bride's church which may or may not be the one the groom's family attended so a researcher checking the records in PRONI, of you do go down that route, may not find details of the Orr family.
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When I look at the map of the townlands, they do neighbour each other. I'd start in Mullabrack first, and ask the researcher to look for both Orrs and Toals.
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Again, thank you all lots for the info given. Eileen your quite right in saying that Mary in the Griffiths valuation could be either the mother of william married in 1853 or nothing to do with me. I got an enhanced death view of Mary in the valuation the enhanced view I have states that the mary in the valuation was widowed, aged 82 and place of death Armagh. The registration details are as follows.....D/1871/14/1002/3/39.Richill. Her death is registered as being on the 14thNovember.Its so frustrating as I feel as if I am going in the right direction but dont know what or where to go to find out how to prove either way if she was Williams mother.At least I know it cant be williams wife. That brings up another question which I will have to look at at a later date. Where did she live between 1861 and 1864 when she left for New Zealand.Im picking she stayed on the Orr farm with her three children.
Message for Aghadowy: The death you found of Mary in Richill further down this page I take it it is the one in the valuation??. Again I am grasping at straws when I see that the informant is a James Orr so if she is mine this James maybe a sibling to my william marrying in 1853.
About going about things in the wrong way. I started here in NZ and worked backwards. William and Mary who married in 1853 and had three children are all buried in a family plot in New Plymouth here in NZ.There is very scant info. Believe me when I say I have worked backwards and have all info pertaining to when they lived in NZ
In the family plot it says that williams mother was a Mary Quin/nn. Thats why when I found the marriage of a William Orr in 1810 to a Mary Quin/nn in the parish of Mullabrack I got a bit excited as I thought maybe they were williams (married in 1853) parents.I have got all information on william and mary (married 1853) and what happened to each of the children. Everything is correct from this end.William had to ask permission to have his wife join him here in NZ and I have a copy of when she arrived on the "blue Duck" in 1864. Its going backwards into Ireland that I am having trouble with. Nothing anywhere that we have speaks of his parents (william marrying in1853) except the bit on the family plot.By the by william and mary had another child here, a girl who contracted TB through her mothers milk as mary her mother had TB.She lived only a year. Hope this helps a bit further.
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There is no way to tell if the Mary Orr in the Valuation Revision Books is the same Mary Orr who died in 1871 or even if it is the same Mary Orr lists all through the Valuation Book. If there is a change in the valuation book but the person has the same first & last name then no change shows in the book.
You mentioned that William's parents are listed in cemetery records for that plot as William Orr & Mary Quinn but not what details, if any, are on his death certificate.
I found newspaper mentions of William Orr's death in 1900 with very little detail but gave age as 92 which may or may not be accurate.
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I would be interested in knowing about that enhanced view of Griffiths that you mention.
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I would be interested in knowing about that enhanced view of Griffiths that you mention.
I think OP is confusing Griffith's Valuation/Valuation Revision Books with 'enhanced view' of death certificate on GRONI.
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Just to clarify locations you mentioned in Personal Message- here's Mullaghbrack just outside Markethill, Co. Armagh-
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/fews-lower/mullaghbrack-lower-fews-portion/hamiltons-bawn/mullaghbrack/
Mullaghbrack to Strabane, Co, Tyrone is over 60 miles quite a distance in Irish terms. To put it in perspective, my grandfather's uncle (born 1850) wrote that his mother's parents lived a 'considerable' distance from his childhood home and it was less than 10 miles.
Who is the Mary Or you think died in Strabane?
One died in Workhouse in 1892 aged 92 but she was a spinster from Raphoe, Co. Donegal
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06027/4716297.pdf