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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: Jimmy_c on Saturday 19 February 22 13:27 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I'm trying to find any information relating to Joseph Clarke. He's my paternal grandfather and I've hit a real roadblock getting any further than the below.
He was born 11th July 1923. His mother was called Mary and was from Ireland. He married Ivy Stacey in 1946. On his wedding certificate he lists his father as George Henry Clarke, farm labourer. His occupation on the wedding certificate was a driver for the army and it had his service number.
I have managed to trace the Stacey branch but really struggling to find anything about George Clarke or Mary. I beleive they left Ireland for Nottingham in 1924.
Any links or help anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated.
All the best,
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Hi Jimmy
Have you got the 1939 Register for Mary and Joseph in Nottingham?
No George but gives a birth date for Mary of 28 September 1899 and for Joseph of 11 July 1924. There is a closed record as well so did Joseph have an older sibling who may be still alive? (We can't post living people's details so your answer may well just need to be yes or no to that ;D)
Was Joseph born in Ireland or Nottingham do you know? Also what year did he die?
and another question...can you post Joseph's service number too?
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No way of knowing if this is the right family but if Mary was b 1899 presumably George was a similar age
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Monaghan/Monaghan_Rural/Tamlat/810741/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003139904/
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There is this birth on FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F19S-YXS
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Hi Jimmy
Have you got the 1939 Register for Mary and Joseph in Nottingham?
Thank you for this. I had seen it before yes but wasn't sure if it was him. Now we have his death certificate the birth dates match so assume it is :) Thank you!
I beleive he had two step brothers but they would have all been older. That closed record would mean someone born at a younger date so maybe he has a sibling born in Nottingham.
Joseph died in 1990. His service number was 4986581.
Thank you again
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Thank you! This could well be him. I beleive their family were presbertaryan. :)
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Hi Jimmy
Have you got the 1939 Register for Mary and Joseph in Nottingham?
Thank you for this. I had seen it before yes but wasn't sure if it was him. Now we have his death certificate the birth dates match so assume it is :) Thank you!
I beleive he had two step brothers but they would have all been older. That closed record would mean someone born at a younger date so maybe he has a sibling born in Nottingham.
Joseph died in 1990. His service number was 4986581.
Thank you again
No problem.
Were the step siblings on George's or Mary's side? Might lead us in a convuluted way to the parents marriage if you know their names or rough dates of birth?
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They were on the mother's side I think but I don't know their surname or Mary's maiden name. Joseph didn't really get on with many people in the family and they weren't very present in the family life. One story is George was an English soldier who brought Mary and her son's back to England after the civil war. The other is Mary fled from Belfast to get away from George. This is all second or third generation hand me down knowledge though and not very reliable.
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I would have thought the redacted person was older in terms of listing the family but maybe not. :-\
Have you checked 1939 on Find my Past? There was one a couple of weeks ago, redacted on Ancestry but not on FindMyPast.
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It was on findmypast yeah but I haven't cross checked on ancestry. I'll give that a go now. Any solid lead right now would be gold :)
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Just checked on ancestry and it appears blocked there as well.
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Probably not yours but there is a George H Clarke living in Dublin aged 28 in 1911. Born E ngland, a gardener, wife Mary, born Dublin, daughter Mary aged 1 born London. Married six years two children both living.
Family living in 23 Arklow St Dublin.1911 census.
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On 1939 it gives Mary Clarke aged 99 married and then the closed one and then Joseph, single born 11 July 1924
Mary couldn't still have been married at 99! Must have been widowed.
Ps
The George H Clarke on 1911 Dublin was RC, and his wife would have been about 54 in 1939 so probably not yours.
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That is her year of birth - 1899. :)
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Oh I see!
Thanks heywood.
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I get confused on there too. :)
Jimmy, do you know when Mary died?
The only death I see at the moment is for Mary Elizabeth Clarke in 1977 but her birthdate is April 1899.
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A relative said it was around 1965 but couldn't be sure.
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There is one in October quarter 1965 - year of birth 1897 but that all depends on who reported the death and their knowledge.
A possible burial on Deceased Online shows 1 other burial in the same grave.
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Thanks Heywood.
Do you know if it's possible to view death records before ordering a copy at the relevant office? There's quite a few unsures from Nottingham I have and I would rather view the records before purchasing them.
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I found it via this site
https://www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/cemeteryrecords
Takes you here
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch
I realise that it may not be her but I would think that you would have to pay for any record - death certificate or this burial record.
There may be newspaper death announcements re this Mary.
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Have you got Joseph,s army record.
This will give his age and date of attestment and hismarriage details.
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Have you got Joseph,s army record.
This will give his age and date of attestment and hismarriage details.
Thanks Lola. I have his military record number but have to apply directly to the army to release the records which could take a few months at the moment if the records are still in tact. Going to give it a go though. I have Joseph's marriage record already.
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I found it via this site
https://www.nottinghamcity.gov.uk/cemeteryrecords
Takes you here
https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch
I realise that it may not be her but I would think that you would have to pay for any record - death certificate or this burial record.
There may be newspaper death announcements re this Mary.
Thabks Heywood. I can't seem to find Mary on that site. I found a Mary in the general register though. I'm going to see if there were any obituaries in the evening post.
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That’s odd.
This is what you get when you click on the link to Deceased Online from the Nottingham site and then just complete the name (surname first) and date.
Because you have got to D O from Nottingham, the first two entries refer to the same person.
Clarke, Mary buried on:23 December 1965 recorded in: Nottinghamshire
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Got it! Thank you. Tried again on my laptop and it came up with the results. I got an address which matches the area where my dad grew up and a name in the "ceremony performed by" column. Do you know if this refers to the funeral director, priest or individual who arranged the funeral? Thank you again.
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Not sure but maybe the minister. You could try searching for the name/area at the time.
That address might also help for searching electoral registers to see if anyone else lived with her.
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Perhaps you should go ahead and order the cert specifying husband as George H Clarke
If they can't find it it should only cost you about £4 , the search.
Sometimes we just have to take the plunge and get the cert.
I have only had one incorrect one over many years.
You will then know who was present at the death. And the address.
Was Goerge also in the army do you think.?
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Just an update on this,
I confirmed with my uncle that the address on Mary's burial certificate was a match for the road she lived on. From that I have ordered the corresponding death certificate.
I ordered Joseph's death certificate and his dob is the same as his suspected record on the 1939 register so I'm classing the 1939 entry as a confirmed record.
Joseph's death certificate says he was born in Nottingham but I think this may be incorrect. There were two Joseph Clarkes born in Nottingham in 1924. The maiden names of the mother's on those two records are 'Streets' and 'Fenning' there is another in 1925 for a 'Booth'.
I've checked in Irish genealogy if any of those names match with Mary's birthdate of 28th September 1899 but no luck so far. I shall await her death certificate and get the maiden name from that.
Thanks again for all of your help.
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Is the other person buried in the same grave a relative, do you know?
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When I looked it just had Mary Clarke listed twice. I couldn't find the second person.
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Just an update. We received Mary's death certificate today. It didn't contain her maiden name unfortunately but we confirmed it was valid by the signatorys address. It also confirmed her spouse was George Henry Clarke, a farm labourer. On the death certificate her occupation was "widow OR wife of George Henry Clarke, farm labourer". We know that George left when Joseph was still a child. My focus now is on trying to track down a George Henry.
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Mary Clarke twice might havebeenmother and daughter.
Joseph's older sibling may have been Mary....
Maybe look for a Mary marrying George Henry Clarke in B arrack churches in Ireland,
Eg. Dublin, Beggars Bush, Birr or one of the others where British troops were stationed.
Marriage about 1920 .?.
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Others have Joseph Clarke or 11July 1924. In Staffordshire.
Father Thomas William Clarke a military man. Born Walsall Staffs 1876....
marrying Mary Curran at RC church in Carrick on Sur Tipperary.29/11/1913.
Mary Curran as given as wife on military form with date and place of marriage
Thomas' military no.302439.
Same Mary given as found on 1939 census.
What name is given as Joseph,s father on marriage cert to Ivy.?
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What name is given as Joseph,s father on marriage cert to Ivy.?
He was born 11th July 1923. His mother was called Mary and was from Ireland. He married Ivy Stacey in 1946. On his wedding certificate he lists his father as George Henry Clarke, farm labourer. His occupation on the wedding certificate was a driver for the army and it had his service number.
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Yes.
I know...but strange 11 July 1924. ....11 July 1923.
Strange other folk have Thos William as Joseph's father..... that same Joseph marrying Ivy Stacey.
And quote the same 1939 census.
That military number is Thomas William Clarke,s.
I had a marriage cert where the father,s name was rubbish...it quite throughme.I knew her father,s and mother's names.
People lie on marriage certs !
The military cert the op has sent for should solve the mystery.
Still Joseph,s military record should have all info on it when it comes.
Might be worth following Patrick Clarke born Carrick on Sur Tipperary a d see what his father,s name is.
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Thanks for the recommendation. The Thomas William records on ancestry are from one of my cousins and one of my uncles. I've spoken to them and they don't know where the recommendation came from. George Henry Clarke is on Joe's marriage certificate and on Mary's death certificate. The only thing linking them up is the July 11th date.
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Jimmy_c
Many trees are copied without having been personally researched with certs purchased and records scrutinised, etc.
Because there were so many Joseph Clarkes born around the same time it is hard to find the exact one.
The one positive is you have the marriage cert for Joseph and and Ivy presumably from whom you descend.
But what you need is the birth cert of the Joseph Clarke either Notts or Staffs or wherever.
Or a baptism record of same. That will give you Mary,s surname.
These no one seems to have. None of the trees has an image of birth cert or baptism As you say the only thing is 11 July.
If Joseph,s father was a military man then Joseph,s birth may be on the gro military birth site.
I found my mother.s birth this way when it was not on any other.
Naturally I knew her birthday but I could not find it to obtain cert except in Gro overseas section.
You could request a search . It used to cost £4 , probably more now.
Sometimes going sideways yields results...hence maybe tracing Patrick or whoever Joseph,s older sibling was.
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Sorry if I've missed something already posted but here's the 1913 marriage of Thomas William Clarke & Mary Curran mentioned earlier-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1913/09900/5597607.pdf
Groom listed as woodworking machinist, father William Clarke plate layer.
If this is the same Thomas Clarke in 1911 then birthplace given as Staffordshire-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Carrick_on_Suir__Urban_/Townparks/839324/
Back to the 1913 marriage- the couple had at least 4 children born in Ireland (could be others after 1921)-
- John William (1914)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1914/01400/1576012.pdf
- Patrick (1916)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1916/01342/1553741.pdf
- Mary (1919-1920)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1919/01229/1511632.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1920/05121/4409164.pdf
- James (1921-1921)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1921/01189/1495460.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1921/05101/4401725.pdf
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Aghadowey,
You haven't missed anything.
There is atree on a....that has Joseph Clarke and Mary from Ireland in 1939 on it. It gives marriage of a Joseph Clarke to Ivy Stacey . That tree has the 1939 with the Mary from Ireland
and Joseph aged19 a bricklayer on it.
That tree , also copied by others is rubbish. IMHO.
Jimmy s Joseph Clarke is born either Staffs or Notts in either July11 1923 or 1924.
There were lots of Joseph Clarke born during those years in Staffs and Notts.
I havebeen through them all.
Unless Jimmy has a baptism record for his Joseph Clarke stating father as George Henry how can he be sure he has the right one
Jimmy has sent off for a Joseph Clarke's military record....but there are several that could be him.
Jimmy _c
how do you know who George Henry married.. How do you know it is Mary.
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Thanks both,
Mary lived with the family until her death in 65 and a few people in the family remember her. I have her death certificate now. On her death certificate it gives her job as wife or widow of George Henry Clarke. Unfortunately there is no maiden name on the certificate. Joe reported the death. On Joseph's marriage certificate it gives Joe's father as George Henry Clarke. So Joe at least was convinced his dad was George Henry Clarke and that George Henry was married to his mum. Enough for him to put it on his marriage certificate and her death certificate.
On the 1939 register there is a Joseph Clarke living a few doors away from the address on Joe's marriage certificate with the same birthdate and a Mary Clarke born September 1899. Mary is listed as being married but there is no George Henry on the records. I'm quite confident this is Joe and Mary and that Joe's dad had left the family by this point. There is another blocked out record on the register probably of Joe's younger sibling Patrick. I've been told Patrick had learning difficulties and never lived apart from Mary even as an adult.
I know that Joe had two brothers known to him, George who was older and Patrick who was younger.