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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: rusted on Thursday 17 February 22 22:43 GMT (UK)

Title: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Thursday 17 February 22 22:43 GMT (UK)
I thought I had this person sorted out and was just filling in gaps in my records, so ordered his marriage certificate from the Victoria Australia BDM.
Thomas GREENWOOD, Age 31, widower since November 1855, with one dead child, from Halifax Yorkshire, Father James GREENWOOD, manufacturer. mother Sarah WINDELL. Married Elizabeth Hawkins on 29 Nov 1859 in Victoria Australia.

I have/ his birth as 27 Aug 1828 in Stanfield apparently correct mother and father except this bloke is a weaver, various records seem to confirm this, until I found when rechecking the records the same family and Thomas turn up in the 1861 census. This correct in every way family is incorrect as he was busy having children and discovering gold mines in Victoria in 1861

I am looking for details of Thomas' first marriage that ended in Nov 1855. My thinking possibly wife and child died in child birth. From that I hope to be able to track down his correct birth/baptism.
Thanks for any help, I am from Australia and struggle with UK records.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 17 February 22 23:02 GMT (UK)
Hello Rusted
Can you please tell me when Thomas arrived in Australia and details of the ship.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Thursday 17 February 22 23:25 GMT (UK)
Thanks Neale.
Sorry I cant find him at all in assisted or unassisted between 1855 and 1859.
Oh, there's a thought, I presumed he came out after his wife died, I wonder if she died in transit or even in Australia?
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 17 February 22 23:41 GMT (UK)
I think it would be important to try to established when he arrived in Australia. He may have married in Australia, or he may have arrived in the colony with a wife.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Thursday 17 February 22 23:43 GMT (UK)
I found two of them neither appears correct though.
Thomas Greenwood 22, with wife Sarah 18 from Cumberland Ag labourer on board James brown Jan 1853 assisted.
Thomas Greenwood, 18, butcher, unassisted Aug 1853 on Albinus.

I will see what I can find about the first one.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Thursday 17 February 22 23:55 GMT (UK)
No Greenwood deaths at sea registered on either of those ships in the time frame 1850 to 1859.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Friday 18 February 22 00:07 GMT (UK)
I checked the Victoria pioneer index and nothing there either in the time frame jumps out.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 18 February 22 00:32 GMT (UK)


Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate, 1859.

Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: heywood on Friday 18 February 22 00:35 GMT (UK)
This looks promising if his mother is Windle

The marriage of James Greenwood and Sarah Windle shows her residence as Northowram.

1841 1303/5/3
James Greenwood 30yrs
Sarah 30yrs
With several children including Thomas 12 yrs

1851 2298/12/16
James Greenwood 43 yrs Manufacturer Table covers, worsted and Cotton
Sarah 43 yrs
Plus several children including Thomas 22 yrs

Younger children have mother’s maiden name of Windle
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 18 February 22 00:54 GMT (UK)
1851 census for the family (as cited by Heywood)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SP94-4RP

and 1861 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7CY-N36

ADDED
I think you have the right birth / baptism for Thomas, but were looking at the wrong family on the census.  :)
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Friday 18 February 22 01:01 GMT (UK)
Wivenhoe, The other information on the 1859 Victoria certificate is His wife's details Elizabeth Hawkins Spinster, Manningford Wiltshire age 22, (where married Faulkiners Hill) father George Hawkins labourer, mother Jane Macklin. signed by Thomas (literate) Elizabeth X (illiterate)

Thanks Heywood and Neale I will check them out.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 18 February 22 01:54 GMT (UK)
Rusted, I have been looking at shipping records for you, and although there do seem to be a couple of possibilities, the occupation does not fit, or the time line is not quite right.
Given that his father was in manufacturing and employing a number of men, I would think there would have been enough family wealth for Thomas to come as an un-assisted passenger.

With that in mind, here is a possibility ……
A Mr Greenwood (age 28, single) arriving Melbourne on “Lady Elizabeth” in May 1854
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/3AF43DDD-F96C-11E9-AE98-95F2BC913559?image=204

That would still give Thomas time to marry and then lose his wife and child (together in childbirth) by Nov 1855.

That said, I could see nothing in VIC BMD. It is possible that there was no record of the marriage, as it was early days for registration in VIC.

Of course, Thomas may have arrived at another port – Sydney or Adelaide.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 18 February 22 02:17 GMT (UK)
Here is a death you may want to investigate further, in case it is Thomas’s child.
As you say he was into gold mining, the place would fit. Birth may have been at time of mother’s death in 1855 - birth not registered that I could see.

GREENWOOD Henry
Death Oct 1859, Ballarat, age 4
Mother - Sarah
Father- Thomas
5984/1859
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/227883196/henry-greenwood
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 18 February 22 03:05 GMT (UK)
From the marriage certificate, 1859...what occupation do you see for Thomas GREENWOOD?

What church do they marry in ie denomination?

What names do you see for witnesses? 

Do the witnesses sign?
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: wivenhoe on Friday 18 February 22 03:40 GMT (UK)

The Ballarat Star  11 Jul 1911  p1   Obit for Thomas GREENWOOD
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/216644152?
... During the, fifties he with others opened up the Bull Dog gold field, now known as Illabarook. and with his nephew, Mr J GREENWOOD, was the discoverer of the famous Jubilee mine lode.....

Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Friday 18 February 22 05:26 GMT (UK)
Sorry everyone, a house full of grandkids put things on hold.

Wivenhoe, Yes that's the bloke, Thomas is my G G grandfather, the Jubilee mine was very wealthy, they hit a lean patch and sold it to some investors who poured money into it and took a fortune out of it. Many of the very wealthy families in Melbourne owe their wealth to that mine.
Marriage cert in 1859 Thomas is a miner

Thomas Greenwood was a member of the Church Of Scotland, Sarah was a member of the Church of England, they were married in Thomas' private residence at Faulkners Hill Woady Yalloak (not far from Illabarook)
Wtnesses are George Hawkins X, William Faulkner (signed) minister John Gow.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Friday 18 February 22 05:52 GMT (UK)
Neale that Henry is in a grave with three others, but none died at the same time as him, so probably doubtful. Also burial was on 1 Oct 1859,
Thomas stated that he was widowed  November 1855 on his wedding cert.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: dobfarm on Friday 18 February 22 08:22 GMT (UK)
Hi rusted

I'm quoting snippets of the Thomas 1859 marriage in Australia from 2 of your posts that seem unusual

First is, it was Thomas's father James who's occupation was a manufacturer and  does not say Thomas's occupation as I read it. Thus what was Thomas's occupation



2nd is ? it appears this Thomas son of James Greenwood a manufacturer of Halifax Yorkshire England is literate

or am I reading it wrong. ?


Thomas GREENWOOD, Age 31, widower since November 1855, with one dead child, from Halifax Yorkshire, Father James GREENWOOD, manufacturer. mother Sarah WINDELL.
 Married Elizabeth Hawkins on 29 Nov 1859 in Victoria Australia.


The other information on the 1859 Victoria certificate is His wife's details Elizabeth Hawkins Spinster, Manningford Wiltshire age 22,
 (where married Faulkiners Hill) father George Hawkins labourer, mother Jane Macklin. signed by Thomas (literate) Elizabeth X (illiterate)
 
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: heywood on Friday 18 February 22 08:29 GMT (UK)
The marriage details fit with the information I posted.
I wasn’t sure whether Sarah Windell (Windle) was speculative but not so.

Is there any detail of the nephew Mr J Greenwood in Australian records?
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: dobfarm on Friday 18 February 22 09:10 GMT (UK)
http://www.calderdalecompanion.co.uk/mmg314.html

Some various Halifax info on Greenwood's of Halifax England by Malcolm Bull website
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 18 February 22 09:33 GMT (UK)
Neale that Henry is in a grave with three others, but none died at the same time as him, so probably doubtful. Also burial was on 1 Oct 1859,
Thomas stated that he was widowed  November 1855 on his wedding cert.
I think you missed my point, Rusted.
Not to worry, but when there are so many unknowns, I try to look at all options, rather than make assumptions.
It is possible for a baby to live, even though mother dies as a result of giving birth.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 18 February 22 09:48 GMT (UK)
As well as the passenger list suggestion I made in reply #11 ….
I think you might consider the Greenwood couple plus 1 year old child who arrived Melbourne on “Martin Luther” in 1852. Thomas is listed as a miner, but if he was headed for the gold fields, he may have called himself a miner on the passenger list.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/33FC5616-F96C-11E9-AE98-D185E5E909BF?image=71

EDIT - i have looked further at this family arriving 1852, and I don’t believe it is yours
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: rusted on Friday 18 February 22 20:44 GMT (UK)
Catching Up, it is early morning here and the grandkids are still asleep.
Dobfarm, Thomas is listed as a miner on his wedding cert and signs his name, quite literate, he writes very detailed reports on the mine. His wife Elizabeth Hawkins is Illiterate and her father? George who was a witness also illiterate.

Heywood. Yes that Sarah Windle is correct, I haven't tracked much of her or her family yet. How did you see the information that she already had children with a different surname? I think I will have no trouble tracking down the nephew John Greenwood, I am reasonably good at Victorian records and Victorian geography, awful at UK.

Neale, I agree with you sometimes you have to test some strange assumptions just to eliminate them, or even prove them. I'm not ruling anything out at all until I have proof. Miners were very mobile people, they tended to go where the rushes were happening so the wife and child might have vanished miles from where most of the action happened. I have checked the cemeteries that are around Scarsdale with no luck but they could be a long way away.
Yes I agree about that passenger on "Martin Luther" his age is a bit off.
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: heywood on Friday 18 February 22 20:51 GMT (UK)
Sorry rusted,
The different surname reference meant you have ‘Windell’ and she is ‘Windle’ in Yorkshire records.
Heywood
Title: Re: Thomas GREENWOOD Halifax?
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 18 February 22 21:03 GMT (UK)
I eliminated the passenger on the “Martin Luther” not because of age, but after tracing the family back in England and forward in Australia.
I found no likely Greenwood contender in NSW shipping.
The only passenger which I cannot eliminate, is the Mr.Greenwood on “Lady Elizabeth” 1854, which I have mentioned previously. As the only one not eliminated, he might well be yours.