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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: dido on Friday 11 February 22 15:47 GMT (UK)
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I am researching the Burns family and looking for a possible connection.
James 1874 and Sarah Burns 1888. Lived in King Street, Birtley.
Children. Mary, Sarah Edna and James Basil. There were another 2 children born at later dates but I have withheld these as they may still be living?
Possible marriage for Mary Burns b 1916 to John Nichols Ap June quarter 1936.
Wondered if any relatives are still around the area.
Thanks.
Dido.
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James Basil Burns was b 1921 mmn Dotchin which would make James snr around 47 yrs old when he was born
Sarah Jane Dotchin was b 1888 Newcastle so 14yrs younger than James
When did she marry James Burns?
Would be helpful if you could post the birthyears & birthplaces for each child & the birthplaces for James & Sarah
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As I guess that you know, the family is at 36 King Street, Birtley in the 1921 census. However in the 1911 census at the same address James Burns has a different wife, Ellen. They have been married for 4 years and have had two children, but there are four children at the address, Catherine Violet (11), Joseph Thomas (10), James (2) and George (6 mo). The last two born Birtley, the first two at Esh Hill Top.
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George's birth reg shows mmn Brown whereas Catherine Violet shows mmn Coyle
James Burns m Alice Coyle Sept qtr 1896 Alice died Dec qtr 1900 aged 28. She gave birth to Joseph Thomas same qtr
James married Ellen Brown March qtr 1907
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In 1900 James Burns is in his father’s (George) house in Birtley, widowed with two children Violet and Joseph T. His mother is Catherine, born Ireland.
There is a (Catholic) baptism record for Catherina Violet Burns in Esh in May 1899, father Jacobi Burns, mother Alicia.
I meant to say earlier, James Burns was born in Renfrewshire.
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See reply 3 above - James married twice by 1911
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Ellen Burns died 1912 aged 33 & looks like he may have married wife number 3 in 1916 - Sarah Hill
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Strange - Sarah Jane Dotchin married Samuel Irving March qtr 1921. 1939 entry confirms birthyear 1888
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Daughter Monica b 1924 mmn Dotchin. Entry open on 1939 register
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Daughter Monica b 1924 mmn Dotchin. Entry open on 1939 register
still at 36 King Street, Birtley.
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There is no Sarah Dotchin marriage to a surname Hill. If she was previously married - she would remarry as Hill but children born to the marriage would show mmn as Dotchin
Dido
Does the 1921 entry show Sarah b Newcastle or elsewhere?
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There is no Sarah Dotchin marriage to a surname Hill. If she was previously married - she would remarry as Hill but children born to the marriage would show mmn as Dotchin
Dido
Does the 1921 entry show Sarah b Newcastle or elsewhere?
Sarah Burns, age 34y 7mo, born: Durham, Washington
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In the 1891 census there is a Sarah Dotchin, 3, Washington and a William Dotchin, 1, Birtley recorded as niece and nephew of William and Isabella Mason, both 23 born Shiney Row and Seaham Harbour respectively. They are at 11 Waggon Row, Great Usworth (in the Birtley area).
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William Mason married Isabella Dodgson Chester-le-Street Q1 1890
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2 Dodgson births 1888 - Sarah Dodgson Chester le Street & Sarah Jane South Shields
Also William Dodgson 1889 Chester Le Street
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I think we need Dido to read these replies & come back with comments/info
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I think we need Dido to read these replies & come back with comments/info
I agree, I’m starting to lose the thread.
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Sorry guys.
Just managed to catch up with all of the info you have given me and so grateful for that.
Yes. Sarah did remarry 1916 and the children mentioned in my first post were James and Sarah's. I hope from this I can find the connection with any Burns living relatives. James was widowed 3 times so, this family was quite a challenge to say the least. There's 2 more children to add. Monica 1924 and Joan. James and Sarah's previous backgrounds and all of the children between them is quite an insight to their life. It's the info on the last marriage that has nearly completed my journey.
Many Thanks to AlanBoyd and Carole W for their joint effort.
Dido.
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You didn't give birthyears for the 3 children in your opening post nor any maiden name for Sarah. No details of when they married or their respective birthplaces.
As stated in my earlier reply - James Basil BURNS was b 1921 - mmn DOTCHIN - same maiden name on Monica's birth reg.
Yet you now say "yes - Sarah remarried 1916"
Which "Sarah" The 1916 marriage shows her as Sarah Hill. See my earlier reply #10 re second marriage & mmn.
So - where/when is the marriage of Sarah Dotchin to a man called Hill?
Have you bought a copy of the 1916 marriage cert to establish Sarah's marital status at that time & her fathers name which will show her maiden name
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Dec 1916 birth Mary O Burns - mmn Dodgson
June 1918 Edna (not Sarah Edna) mmn Dodgson
James B & Monica both mmn Dotchin
All Chester le Street RD
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1905 marriage Joshua Hill with a Sarah Dodgson on same page - Chester Le Street
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Sarah went by many names and was quite a frustrating search. She did marry Joshua Hill but went by the name Mason most of her early life. Then Dodgson, then Hill now Burns. I only found out about the 1916 marriage and was not aware of more children or even step children she had. I do not have the marriage cert YET. I will let you know when I get it if you like. I do know there is a backlog of BMD requests due to pandemic, as I waited ages for another request. Meanwhile, as now I have info of the Burns family which I new nothing about or very little of, I thought It would be nice to connect with them if there are any still living? The people who would have known about this addition to the family are all too young or departed or, maybe a sensitive subject and never discussed. As is usually the case, too late.
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Dido,
Did you ever work out who Sarah’s actual parents were? I’ve just spent the morning down the rabbit hole of the Dodgson/Dotchin/Datchin family and can’t seem to answer that question. I get the impression that this family just didn’t bother to register births or baptise their children, but with all of the name variations it’s difficult to be sure.
Even Isabella Mason/Dodgson is a bit of a mystery. She is apparently the aunt of Sarah and William, although I suppose it isn’t out of the question that she is actually their mother. But even she is a mystery. I think I’ve found her in the 1871 census listed as Arabella, but oddly she has an older sister Isabella! I’m pretty sure that I have the right person because of her birthplace (Seaham).
So, I’m about to give up, just thought you might be able to shed some light on this.
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Thanks for your understanding regarding the frustrating and complications of my searching. The turns and twists were quite an introduction to family research. Your rabbit hole is about as deep as mine?
To answer your question, I am not sure about Sarah's and her Brothers birth. This has been a ? for years. Sure, they are entered as Niece and Nephew, then, in the next census, daug and son. I realise there was a lot of porkies told in those days, down to pure survival I think.
You have the right census. There were 2 Isabella's. One died as a baby in1863 and the 2nd born 1867.
I would gamble she was Arabella. There were loads of mistakes with this name and think a mix up was through the enumerator. Arabella was crossed out. The long and short, Isabella 2nd was actually Arabella. I think even she gave up and stuck with the name Isabella and she was born in Washington. Hmmmm
They have all been a mystery. lol. Thanks for your patience sticking with this and hope you see my dilemma a bit clearer. I was prepared to leave this on the back burner and see where I got with the Burns. Didn't expect my request would go so deep. Some things are quite sensitive and their bones must be rattling. Thanks for your time and help though Allan. Much appreciated. Dido.
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Thanks for the reply Dido. I don't mean to go on about this but in the 1871 census I see Isabella – born Washington aged 9 – with Arabella – born Seaham aged 4 – in the same family. That's why I thought that Arabella became Isabella Mason, since the latter also has Seaham as her birthplace. This doesn't fit with your mention of Isabella dying as a baby, or of Arabella being born in Washington. Perhaps you were speaking from memory?
By the way, just in case you haven't spotted it, in that same census, next door to the 'Dotchin' family, are Joseph and Margaret Gibson and family. She is Margaret Dodgson the sister of Arabella's father John 'Dotchin'. In the 1861 census they are all in the same house (of Edward and Elizabeth Dodgson) at Usworth: the Dodgsons, the Gibsons and the 'Dotchins' (also the Dawsons), although John himself isn't there, just Sarah and their 3 children. Sixteen people in what I imagine was not a large house.
Anyway, I promise I'll leave this to you now.
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Thanks for this new info. This adds more missing pieces to this ever growing mysterious family.
I will go through the mountain of info with the census again. I can recall Arabella was crossed out. but don't know why? I will let you know anymore when I unravel more. Deserved after all the digging on my behalf. Thanks again.
No I hadn't spotted the the neighbours. Yet another route to go down??? Blimey!
Dido.