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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: pavane on Thursday 10 February 22 15:52 GMT (UK)
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William Bramwell (1883-1982) and Gwendolyn Garner nee Smith (1884-1927) had two daughters, Ronella (b 1910) and Gwendoline (B 1907). We believe the sisters had two relatives, possibly half-brother and half-sister, named R* and Joan Bramwell, but cannot establish who their parents would have been. Is there anyone who could help with this?
There is a photograph of them with Gwendoline in 1945.
Thanks
Gwendolyn Garner was my great-aunt.
Neil
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William Bramwell was about 22 when he married Gwendolyn Garner Smith. (Her birth was registered in those names). William Henry Bramwell was a Bachelor when he married.
Do you have any idea of birth years for R and J
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Bramwell is not exactly a common surname in Scotland, there are only 119 Bramwell births on ScotlandsPeople for the entire period of statutory registration of births from 1855 onward. No sign of a Joan Bramwell, but there is a Raymond Bramwell born in 1933, who's birth was registered in the Ardrossan Old registration district, which is certainly in Ayrshire and not too far from Largs. Looking for other Bramwell births in the Ardrossan Old registration district then produces a Helen Joan Bramwell born the following year in 1934.
Because both births fall within the 100-year limitation on viewing birth registrations online on ScotlandsPeople you'd have to order copies of one or both birth registrations, but this would give you both their parents' names and when and where they married.
Edited to add that there is no obvious Bramwell marriage on ScotlandsPeople that would fit with these births, either location- or date-wise.
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As Gwendolyn Garner Bramwell died in 1927 did William remarry :-\
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Are all the people named in the opening post deceased?
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Thanks to all for the information. We believe R is still alive, but would be about 88 now. He was formerly a famous chorister and conductor. We believe Joan is deceased.
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Rosie99: When his wife Gwen died or possibly before, William arranged for a marriage of convenience between his then partner Anna (A Czech) and his brother James to allow her to stay in UK.
Surely this must have been before her death, otherwise he could have married her himself.
We know of no children of Anna or James, though. (Doesn't mean James had none)
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Rootschat does not allow us to name possibly living people in our posts, you will need to modify your posts and headings to remove their names
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Apologies for my breach of the rules
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Thanks to all - the mystery is now solved. After his first wife died, William Bramwell married Sarah Elsie Stock, born c 1897, around 1930, and the two people I was looking for were her children.
Sarah is presumed dead, as she would otherwies be over 120. The date of her death would be of interest though.
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On SP there's a Sarah Elsie Bramwell death from 1969 in Irvine aged 72 - might want to have a look at that certificate.
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Thanks that was quick!
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The above death is indexed under both the surnames Bramwell and Stocks, so I'd say it is the correct one.
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Great thanks
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....William arranged for a marriage of convenience between his then partner Anna (A Czech) and his brother James to allow her to stay in UK.
There is a 1939 marriage in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire that might be of interest:
James Charles Bramwell married Anna Finfrle or Benda.
Ref 597/ 75
It is within the period you can view online so you will be able to easily check the details further to confirm if correct.
Monica
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Thanks again.
It appears that Anna's surname was Kaslnerova but I am sure this must be the right marriage
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A little more information on a confusing situation. Although William married Elsie Stock, he clearly fell for Anna while on business in Europe, and arranged for her to come to Scotland and eventually marry his brother James. Anna then moved in with William, and he bought another house for his wife and children (the R and J Bramwell we were looking for). Later on, William and Anna moved the South coast of England, where they lived together until they died. Because Anna was married to his brother, she had the same surname, of course.
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A little more information on a confusing situation. Although William married Elsie Stock, he clearly fell for Anna while on business in Europe, and arranged for her to come to Scotland and eventually marry his brother James.
Taking into account the year of marriage 1939, it may have been necessity to keep her in Britain or to keep her safe. Which country did she come from and what was her religion?
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Yes, the marriage was to enable her to stay in the UK, she was Czech. Since William was already married, he paid his (alcoholic) older brother to marry her. I don't know her religion.
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I don't know her religion.
I wondered if she was Jewish.