RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: scarboroughsarah on Tuesday 08 February 22 19:16 GMT (UK)
-
Hi. I'm looking to find my great grandmother Lily Hilton Parkinson (she married James Brown Grundy on 1st May 1915 in Abram, Lancashire). I know she was born on 18th January 1891 and her father was an Edward Parkinson (from the marriage register), but know virtually nothing else and cannot find her on any census records or a birth record for her (or James!).
Is anyone else looking for either Lily or James Grundy? If so, can you give me any pointers please?
Any help much appreciated.
Thanks, Sarah
-
Welcome to Rootschat
Could she have born as Hilton - illegitimate - and her mother then married a Parkinson?
There is this birth - no mothers maiden name indicating it was illegitimate
HILTON, LILY -
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 163
-
James was living in Brynn Gates and Lily in 209 Lily Lane , Bamfurlong when they married
Marriage: 1 May 1915 St John the Evangelist, Abram, Lancashire, England
James Brown Grundy - 29, Fireman, Bachelor, Brynn-Gates
Lily Hilton Parkinson - 24, Servant, Spinster, 209 Lily Lane Bamfurlong
Groom's Father: William Beech, Collier
Bride's Father: Edward Parkinson, Grocer
Witness: John Parkinson; Maggie Leary
Married by Banns by: W. Wentworth Scott Vicar
bit of info on where they were from
https://www.my-history.co.uk/acatalog/Bamfurlong---Bryn-Gates-1906-LAN101.04.html
-
Clever girl Carole
Lancsbmd
Mothers
Maiden
Name
HILTON Lily HILTON 1891 Upholland Wigan & Leigh UPHL/31/345
-
Marriage of Edward Parkinson in Wigan to Fanny Jones or Jane Shannon in 1892
JOhn parkinson b Wigan 1893, mmn Jones
on 1911 there's a 20 yr old Lily Parkinson b Upholland living in Bryn with uncle and aunt Richard and Alice Finch (added: occupation domestic servant)
Alice's maiden name is Jones
1901 - family found (but no Lily). Edward is a brewer's carter
Fanny had a previous child Benjamin c1886
think this is wrong
-
So maybe ignore that Lily
1891 - Upholland. All born ther
Ann Hilton 66 Head Seamstress
William Hilton 32 Son Coal miner
Mary J Hilton 20 Granddaughter
Thomas White 12 Grandson
Lilley Hilton 3/12 Great-Granddaughter
-
No logical Hilton/Parkinson marriage
Note that James Brown Grundy's father was William Beech??
She may have been fostered by a Parkinson family but there is no Edward Parkinson with an occ of grocer
-
Possible 1911, Lily Parkinson down as niece, with Richard & Alice Finch. Her POB, Upholland
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWY6-MHS
Maybe the birth cert would be helpful, confirm name of mother.
Cas
-
Another possible for 1901, Maybe Mary Jane Hilton was her mother?
All born Upholland
1901 - Alma Hill, Upholland
Thomas Ashurst 55, gen lab for urban district council
Mary J Ashurst 31, wife
Lilly Ashurst 10, dau
Maggie Ashurst 3, "
ASHURST, MAGGIE mmn HILTON
GRO Reference: 1897 S Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 152
Marriages Dec 1892 same page
ASHURST Thomas Wigan 8c 177
Hilton Mary Jane Wigan 8c 177
Cas
-
I think reply #4 by Mabel is on to something.
Alice Finch c1854 who states Lily is niece in 1911 - her sister Fanny Jones married Edward Parkinson in 1892. They had a son John Parkinson c1893 who could be the witness on Lily marriage cert.
It would be niece through marriage as Edward would be her brother in law.
Alice was born out of wedlock to Ann Oliver, single woman, so was named Alice Oliver on her bapt. Possibly her father was James Jones. She became Jones on census after her mother's marriage to James later in 1854. (Married as Alice Oliver)
I think it was known that Edward Parkinson fathered Lily before marriage to Fanny.
Possibly he is a grocer in 1921 nearer the marriage. Unable to see image just free index, but he is still alive in 1921 with Fanny. 1911 he is a Brewers carrier/carter.
Just my thoughts, all can be seen in census, connection between Alice and Fanny, not posted census as see what the poster thinks.
Cas
-
James Brown Grundy. (On a few trees as James Brown aka Grundy)
1939 register has birthdate 18 Jan 1886. Only birth reg that fits with place and timeframe given in census. Interesting the name Beech which is included on marriage cert.
Birth reg
BROWN, JAMES mmn BEECH
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 862
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:77G4-S3Z has surname as Brook
1891- North Meols, Lancashire
Jane Foster 57 Head
John Foster 26 Son
Ann Foster 23 Daughter
James Broan 5 Nurse Child, Southport, Lancashire (image looks like Brown)
Martha A Foster, 1 Grandchild (daughter of Ann on bapt.)
A nurse child is a young child being brought up in the household of someone other than the parents, normally for money, but not always. It could be a paid or unpayed arrangement for the parent or guardian to work.
Marriage
Peter Grundy - Ann Foster same page
Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1892
Registration District: Ormskirk
Volume: 8b Page: 1235
1901 - Ashton in Makerfield
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9L3-PJW
Peter Grundy 49
Ann Grundy 34
James Grundy 15, Southport
Martha Grundy 11
Richard Grundy 8
Edward Grundy 6
1911- Ashton in Makerfield
unable to post details against copyright
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWY6-RVV
If your looking for family in 1921on FindMyPast (under free index not viewed full record), Lily is transcribed as Cily Grandy she is in Orrell, Wigan. With James, Reggie Clifford and 2 others.
Cas
-
Thank you so much to everyone who has posted on this topic! :)
I am amazed how fast you all dived in and gave me so much info.
Some of it I'm already aware of (the Finch family connection)....I followed that line but then became unsure if Lily Parkinson on the 1911 census with the Finch family was the right Lily Parkinson after all (got cold feet!).
It's just so strange that she is missing from the two censuses before that (1901 and 1891) as she would have been about 3 months on the 1891 census and 10 years old on the 1901 census....
Thanks for the James Brown Grundy clues too....I'll look into them all (especially the William Beech connection).... :D
-
I looked into the Possible birth reg
BROWN, JAMES mmn BEECH
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 862
but having thought it through some more don't think this can be James. I think his mother was Ann Foster, who was single until she married a Peter Grundy in 1892. Her maiden name therefore would be Foster not Beech.....it's James' father that is called Beech....
Not sure where the Brown bit of James Brown Grundy comes from either though now I come to think of it!
Or where the Hilton bit in Lily Hilton Parkinson comes from (the Lily who was living with the Finch family on the 1911 census I have researched another generation or two back and there is no sign of a Hilton surname anywhere....maybe the person who said that maybe she was born as Lily Hilton and the Parkinson surname was added after her mother married a Parkinson was right, except that I thought Fanny Jones was her mother until just now as she married an Edward Parkinson in 1892).....he wasn't a grocer though like is stated on the marriage register!
-
If you look back up the thread you'll see I started on the Lily with the Finches trail, but also got cold feet. his was because I couldn't find Lily and Fanny together, even though her son Benjamin, also born prior to marriage, was with Fanny and Edward. I also couldn't find that Alice had a sister called Fanny
it also didn't explain the Hilton - which made me lean towards Lillie Hilton on 1891, because at least we can find her as a small child!
-
The other interesting thing perhaps is there is a John Parkinson and family in Lily Lane, the address Lily uses when she married
-
Hi, this is the connection I meant by census
1861 Holy Trinity Lancashire
James Jones 30
Ann Jones 27
Noah Jones 5
Mary Ellen Jones 3
Fanny Jones 2 mths
Elizabeth Olliver 63
1871 - Pemberton
James Jones 40 Head
Ann Jones 35 Wife
Alice Jones 17, Daughter
(baptised as Alice Oliver as born before parents married. Also married Richard Finch as Alice Oliver)
Noah Jones 15 Son
Mary Ellen Jones 12 Daughter
Jemima Jones 7 Daughter
Effeldiphar Jones 5 Daughter
Lavinia Jones 3 Daughter
Elizabeth Oliver 72 Mother-in-law
Both Alice and Fanny were not together on census, but are from the same family.
Alice Oliver
Birth Date: 2 Apr 1854
Baptism Date: 7 May 1854
Baptism Place: Wigan, All Saints, Lancashire, England
Mother: Ann Oliver, single woman
JONES, FANNY mmn OLIVER
GRO Reference: 1861 M Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 110
Ann Oliver & James Jones married 1854 after bapt.
So as Lily is niece to Alice Finch in 1911 the connection is likely through her sister's husband.
Prior to 1911 census I believe she is Lily Hilton, her parents never married.
Best wishes with your search
Cas
-
Hi again
Fascinating!
Can I just ask Cas (stallc) what makes you think Lily Hilton's parents never married? Who were her parents and how do you know please?
Also, you said "I think it was known that Edward Parkinson fathered Lily before marriage to Fanny."
Who was it known by and how please?
Thanks again everyone for all your input, I will continue searching :-)
-
Hi,
It's just having done family history for a number of decades, you realize that things are not always straight forward. As is life.
If there was a marriage or census entry that put Lily with Parkinson parents then it would have been found. There was illegitimate births then as there are today. Many embellished details on marriage certs as they don't know facts or just want to save face.
Normally, in my experience, if a person holds a middle name which is a surname like name, it could mean they were registered under that name. If you cannot place them readily in census with family, or a corresponding birth entry ect.
I think Lily knew who her father was and took his name after 1911. She states that on her marriage cert. Maybe she did not know his occupation? Maybe by 1915 he had changed occupation to what is found in census?
With the clue of being neice in 1911 to Alice Finch there is all probability that her Brother in Law Edward was Lily father. Alice Finch was illegitimate as well, so maybe wanted to give Lily her rightful place as neice?
Mary Jane Hilton (see census entries above) and Edward Parkinson were around the same age, lived around the same area. Maybe the relationship was short lived and they went on to marry others. Only the people involved know.
Possibly DNA testing could help you move forward, I have found it beneficial to confirm many parts of my paper trail.
Just my thoughts
Cas
-
Hi
I tried following the Mary Jane Hilton line back but found that Lilly/Lilley Hilton is on the 1911 census with her mother Mary Jane Hilton so she cannot be the Lily Parkinson that is on the 1911 census with the Finch family as she can't be in two places at once!
I think you may be right that Lily was born as a Hilton but just find that I can't be certain enough that she is the right Lily Hilton Parkinson to add info to my tree....
On the other side of the marriage - James Brown Grundy. On the marriage register from Abram Parish Church it definitely says William Beech is his father, yet when I got a copy certificate from the GRO it says William Beech Grundy!
How can the image on Ancestry show William Beech only?? It looks like the genuine article, a handwritten, signed marriage register from the church where they married on 1st May 1915.....any ideas? Thanks again :-)
-
The other interesting thing perhaps is there is a John Parkinson and family in Lily Lane, the address Lily uses when she married
Mabel
where did you see a John Parkinson and family living in Lily Lane please? on a census?? thanks...:-)
-
Could you give census details of 1911 census with Mary Jane and Lily, that you have found. Did you track forward to see if she married?
Lily & James marriage cert is online, original copy does not include given name for James father as Grundy, it Just states William Beech.
Just a thought: A possibility?
The second witness is Maggie ? Does not look like Leary to me, unable to locate on census.
In reply #8 - 1901 the given census has Maggie Ashurst. Maggie married Samuel Rae in 1914. 1921 census index has her born Upholland along with Samuel and few children. They are in West Derby.
Do you think there is a possibility that Maggie "Raey" witnessed the marriage. Unable to put a screenshot of surname. That could be a possible link. I would make her half sister to Lily.
Just trying to help.
-
The other interesting thing perhaps is there is a John Parkinson and family in Lily Lane, the address Lily uses when she married
Mabel
where did you see a John Parkinson and family living in Lily Lane please? on a census?? thanks...:-)
electoral registers - at no 20 or no 22
Family in 1911: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWYZ-WYK
I suspect however it may be a coincidence
-
Could you give census details of 1911 census with Mary Jane and Lily, that you have found. Did you track forward to see if she married?
Lily & James marriage cert is online, original copy does not include given name for James father as Grundy, it Just states William Beech.
Just a thought: A possibility?
The second witness is Maggie ? Does not look like Leary to me, unable to locate on census.
In reply #8 - 1901 the given census has Maggie Ashurst. Maggie married Samuel Rae in 1914. 1921 census index has her born Upholland along with Samuel and few children. They are in West Derby.
Do you think there is a possibility that Maggie "Raey" witnessed the marriage. Unable to put a screenshot of surname. That could be a possible link.
Just trying to help.
Hi Cas
Thanks for the reply. I really do appreciate your input (and anyone else's too!)
The family in 1911 where there is a Mary Jane Hilton (maiden name Menzies) with a John Hilton and a daughter Lily (aged 20). Having looked further into it Lily was born in 1890 not 1891 like I'm looking for and went on to marry a Norman T Pendlebury in July 1916.
I checked with the Registrars and they say the original marriage register says James Brown Grundy's father is William Beech Grundy, yet I thought the register shown on Ancestry was the original and it definitely says William Beech only (no Grundy). It is hand written and looks authentic so I can't understand why one version says William Beech and one apparently says William Beech Grundy.
-
The other interesting thing perhaps is there is a John Parkinson and family in Lily Lane, the address Lily uses when she married
Mabel
where did you see a John Parkinson and family living in Lily Lane please? on a census?? thanks...:-)
electoral registers - at no 20 or no 22
Family in 1911: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWYZ-WYK
I suspect however it may be a coincidence
Thanks Mabel. I think it's maybe just a coincidence, Parkinson was a pretty common name in the area I think.
I can't see the record as I don't subscribe to family search but I appreciate your input. Thanks :-)
-
I would go with what you see. The marriage cert is a scanned image of original on Ancestry. Also you know that James Brown was not born Grundy.
He was a nurse child in 1891, his foster mother Ann married Peter Grundy in 1892 he then stayed with the family and took on the Grundy surname.
Martha Ann Foster was the illegitimate child of Ann Foster, baptism and GRO birth reg verifies. She is Martha Grundy in 1901. Married as Martha A Grundy in 1910.
All this can be verified by census, GRO birth reg around birthdate and pob. There is no birth reg or bapt to connect James to Ann Foster. Also online trees have some or same evidence. I know that online trees can have misleading info, but some get it right.
I do not have anymore suggestions to help, sorry, rather than what information is given on thread by all.
Best wishes. Good luck with your search
Cas
-
Thanks Mabel. I think it's maybe just a coincidence, Parkinson was a pretty common name in the area I think.
I can't see the record as I don't subscribe to family search but I appreciate your input. Thanks :-)
There's no subscription for Familysearch - you have to register but no payment required
-
Thanks Mabel. I think it's maybe just a coincidence, Parkinson was a pretty common name in the area I think.
I can't see the record as I don't subscribe to family search but I appreciate your input. Thanks :-)
There's no subscription for Familysearch - you have to register but no payment required
Oh, Ok Mabel. Thanks. I'll take a look.
-
I would go with what you see. The marriage cert is a scanned image of original on Ancestry. Also you know that James Brown was not born Grundy.
He was a nurse child in 1891, his foster mother Ann married Peter Grundy in 1892 he then stayed with the family and took on the Grundy surname.
Martha Ann Foster was the illegitimate child of Ann Foster, baptism and GRO birth reg verifies. She is Martha Grundy in 1901. Married as Martha A Grundy in 1910.
All this can be verified by census, GRO birth reg around birthdate and pob. There is no birth reg or bapt to connect James to Ann Foster. Also online trees have some or same evidence. I know that online trees can have misleading info, but some get it right.
I do not have anymore suggestions to help, sorry, rather than what information is given on thread by all.
Best wishes. Good luck with your search
Cas
Hi Cas, thanks for your reply. I'm beginning to think that James Brown Grundy was born James Brown to a mother called someone Brown and maybe she died shortly after his birth or couldn't cope and gave him away (hence he is a nurse child aged 5 on the 1891 census). I thought Ann Foster was his mother perhaps but it definitely says James Brown on the 1891 census not James Brown Foster.....
I've tried finding a William Beech Grundy or a William Grundy (with a mother's maiden name of Beech) on Ancestry but am having no luck.
Do registrars collect the original marriage registers from the churches that the marriages occurred in once they are full? I was thinking I might do a road trip to see Abram Parish Church where James married Lily Hilton Parkinson in 1915 to see the marriage register myself!
Thanks again Cas. Your input has helped keep me thinking and motivated! :-)
-
Hi,
Have you considered getting the birth certs for Lily and James given in reply #1 and reply #10 to see if they match birth dates given in 1939 register entry for couple. One or both may help to confirm if these are yours.
HILTON, LILY - (no mother name listed but reply #3 has her as Hilton born Upholland)
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 163
BROWN, JAMES mmn BEECH (This is the only entry for birthdate given and POB)
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 862
Also another possibility is the William Beech mentioned as father could be a family member of his mother, as he had no knowledge of his 'Brown' father. It has not been unknown that people did that.
Just a thought
Also in reply #2 Lancs OPC has the father's name as William Beech. (No Grundy)
Can you take a screenshot of father's name from the copy you received from GRO, can then compare to original on Ancestry to see if added? Ancestry has the scanned copy of original.
-
Hi,
Have you considered getting the birth certs for Lily and James given in reply #1 and reply #10 to see if they match birth dates given in 1939 register entry for couple. One or both may help to confirm if these are yours.
HILTON, LILY - (no mother name listed but reply #3 has her as Hilton born Upholland)
GRO Reference: 1891 M Quarter in WIGAN Volume 08C Page 163
BROWN, JAMES mmn BEECH (This is the only entry for birthdate given and POB)
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 862
Also another possibility is the William Beech mentioned as father could be a family member of his mother, as he had no knowledge of his 'Brown' father. It has not been unknown that people did that.
Just a thought
Also in reply #2 Lancs OPC has the father's name as William Beech. (No Grundy)
Can you take a screenshot of father's name from the copy you received from GRO, can then compare to original on Ancestry to see if added? Ancestry has the scanned copy of original.
Hi again
I have ordered the certificate for Lily Hilton born in Upholland but haven't received it yet.
Does anyone know if it's possible to trace babies given up for adoption (in case Ann Foster isn't James Brown's birth mother - maybe she was his foster mother)??
Thanks again everyone! :-)
-
https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/806
No formal adoption until 1926 this states.
Child adoption had no legal status in Britain (including under the separate legal system of Scotland) until 1926, when the first Act was passed which regulated this in England and Wales. Until then, child adoption was an informal and generally secretive procedure which gave the adoptive parents no rights whatsoever: a biological parent could (and in some cases, did) appear at any time and demand custody of a child they had neither seen nor contributed to the care of for years at a time.
Let us know how you get on with the birthdates.
Cas