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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Cynfran on Saturday 05 February 22 13:53 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone please tell me why the following might have occurred?
Free BMD has a James Frederick Daniel Mann born Brentford Dec 1/4 1905. However the GRO online index shows the entry with all the same details, except for him now having the surname Howard.
Any suggestions as to reason for this would be much appreciated.
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I think he was James Frederick Daniel Mann
Baptism 3 Dec 1905
Baptism Place: Hindolveston, Norfolk, England
Mother: Maggie Mann Single Woman
I suspect that Margaret Mann married James Howard in Dec 1908 Aylsham 4b 229 although James may not be living with the couple in 1911 Was the GRO surname amended ???
Kay
Added 1911? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X75L-BQ2
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Margaret had more children -
Triplets - Daniel Frederick Mann b 1908 Hindolveston, Norfolk burial 11 Nov 1908 Hindolveston
George Albert Mann b 1908 Hindolveston, Norfolk burial 2 Feb 1909 Hindolveston
John William Mann b 1908 Hindolveston All baptised 18 Oct 1908 Mother Maggie Mann Single Woman
Albert Edward Howard b 1910 Hindolveston - but I can't see him on the GRO
Florence May Howard mmn Mann b 1911 Hindolveston baptised 5 Nov 1911 Hindolveston, Norfolk Parents James Robert and Margaret
Kay
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Before 1969 there is no surname shown for the child on a birth registration, so the surnames that appear in the index are those of the parent(s) named on the entry, one or both, depending on their marital status.
This is an odd one and I can't immediately think of a combination of names that would account for the way it appears, and there is no indication of any later correction.
All you can say is that the names Mann and Howard are on there, and also the mother is or has been married (or is claiming to be) because there is a maiden name of Young also shown.
It is quite normal to get different results between the old printed indexes, as shown on FreeBMD, and the new GRO on-line system because they don't use the same indexing rules.
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Thank you Kay99 for your response and all the information.
And thank you AntonyMMM for your interesting comments. I'm probably wrong (happens very often!) but if the Norfolk Baptism record is for him, which did seem likely, then I would have thought that his mother's maiden name would have been recorded as 'Mann' in the Births register?
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Thank you Kay99 for your response and all the information.
And thank you AntonyMMM for your interesting comments. I'm probably wrong (happens very often!) but if the Norfolk Baptism record is for him, which did seem likely, then I would have thought that his mother's maiden name would have been recorded as 'Mann' in the Births register?
Yet the GRO index entry you refer to says the maiden name was YOUNG ... so something isn't right ( not to mention why the birth in Brentford, yet a baptism in Norfolk ?) you need to get a certificate to work it out.
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And thank you AntonyMMM for your interesting comments. I'm probably wrong (happens very often!) but if the Norfolk Baptism record is for him, which did seem likely, then I would have thought that his mother's maiden name would have been recorded as 'Mann' in the Births register?
Maybe she was initially trying to cover up the fact that she was not married when she registered the birth in Middlesex.
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Yes, I suppose I would have to get a certificate, but not sure now which name I would have to specify in the application, Mann or Howard?
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I think I might be getting somewhere. I looked for a possible mother (Margaret/Maggie Mann) in his Baptism area and found, on the GRO Index, a birth registration for Margaret Ann YOUNGS Mann.
Perhaps this could point, as you suggested AntonyMMM, to an attempt to disguise her un-married state.
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This might be the family in 1881? Living at Theatre Yard, Wells Next the Sea, Walsingham, Norfolk
Richard Young Head Single 35 Bricklayers labour Holkham, Norfolk
Susan Mann Boarder Single 33 Holkham, Norfolk
Frederick Mann 3 Wells, Norfolk
Margaret Mann 1 Wells, Norfolk
Harriett Mann 0 Wells, Norfolk
Kay
Added Ordering the birth cert from the GRO use the surname Howard as listed on their birth index
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Susan Mann married Hector Charles Hopie - Dec Qtr 1886 Walsingham 4b 782 and he died in 1888 age 27
1891 Living at Wells
Susan Hopie 39 Widow Charwoman Holkham, Norfolk
Frederick Hopie 13 Son Wells
Margarite Hopie 11 Daughter
Hariett Hopie 9 Daughter
Kay
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Thanks for all that Kay99
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Margaret had more children -
Triplets - Daniel Frederick Mann b 1908 Hindolveston, Norfolk burial 11 Nov 1908 Hindolveston
George Albert Mann b 1908 Hindolveston, Norfolk burial 2 Feb 1909 Hindolveston
John William Mann b 1908 Hindolveston All baptised 18 Oct 1908 Mother Maggie Mann Single Woman
Albert Edward Howard b 1910 Hindolveston - but I can't see him on the GRO
Florence May Howard mmn Mann b 1911 Hindolveston baptised 5 Nov 1911 Hindolveston, Norfolk Parents James Robert and Margaret
Kay
HOWARD, ALBERT EDWARD
mmn MANN
Q2 1910
AYLSHAM Volume 04B Page 72
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Thanks Kay and Margaret, Brilliant!
I’m sure now that I have James Frederick’s family and the origins of his sometimes used hyphenated name.
Howard-Mann was recorded as their surnames on at least two of his children’s marriage records.
I have no record of him between his birth/baptism and thereafter as ‘Howard’ at his marriage in 1929, in the 1939 Government Register and at his death in 1984.
I’ve had a similar case in our tree, where the ‘unmarried’ father’s name was added before the mother’s maiden name and eventually replaced it
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Glad it ties together
I think this is James Mann b 1905 Chiswick, Middlesex in 1911 living with James Howard's parents William and Harriet Howard in Hindolveston, Norfolk and it looks like he is still with the Howards in 1921
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X75L-BL2
Kay
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Great work! Thank you so much Kay
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1886 Marriage is on FreeREG, Susan does not name a Father.
Says she is 30 :)
Likely Bapt
03 Sep 1848 Holkham , Mother ANN
1851 Susan is with her Grandparents;
John Spooner 56
Mitchell Spooner 45
Susan Nann 2
(1861 also)
Ignore Trees that have Ann Manns Parents as James Mann and Ann Able.
ANN Mann was baptised 17 Nov 1828 to EDMUND/MITCHELL Mann
Mitchell SANDFORD/Edward MANN married 4 Oct 1825
MITCHELL Mann, Widow, remarried 25 Oct 1844 to John SPOONER
(boy another confusing one as names her Father as Thomas BUTTERS!)
Ok so looks like she was illeg also as;
Marriage;
Jemima SANDFORD
Thomas BUTTERS married 29 Jul 1817
1861 Census we have;
Jamima Butters 90
Susan Mann 21 Granddaughter
Florence A Mann 1
Florence Ann MANN was bapt 23 Feb 1870 Mother SUSAN
Mitchell SANDFORD bapt 23 Jan 1806, Mother JEMIMA a singlewoman
All above on FreeREG in Holkham.
Trish :)
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Thank you Trish. I never dreamt, when I started this thread simply as an enquiry into possible cause of differing maiden names, that it would lead to such a wealth of information. So thank you to all that have contributed to the story of James 'Howard' and his family
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Your welcome :)