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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: CarterDockerty on Saturday 29 January 22 12:36 GMT (UK)
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I am researching my family tree and found that my husband's great grandfather apparently played for Clapton Orient and/or Bury football clubs before WWI, but I seem to have ground to a halt in identifying if he was a player for either or even if he did indeed start for them.
His name was James William Williams, born around 1884 and he died on the Somme in 1918. He is NOT the welsh footballer of the same name, but a North East England "sometime coal miner". He is identified as a "Professional Footballer (Deceased)" on the grandmother's marriage certificate, which started our search. We found reference to his playing for Orient in a newpaper article -(Sunderland Daily Echo of 1914) unfortunately it referenced him abandoning my great-grandmother, but the clubs mentioned were Clapton Orient and Bury.
I've tried the fan club of Orient, but Bury went into administration.
So, rather a long-winded way of asking if anyone has any ideas of finding out if he did actually play football professionally? My father-in-law (now in his 80's) also had some football trials in his youth, so we're trying to clear this up for him.
Many thanks in advance for reading this, Sarah
Researching: Williams (Gloucs, Durham), Dockerty (Durham, Co Mayo, Yorkshire), Curran (Durham, Co Monaghan), McCourt (Cumberland, Durham)
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There is a web site dedicated to players and ex-players who died in WW1:-
https://www.footballandthefirstworldwar.org/
I have searched for players / ex-players of both Bury and Clapham Orient and James William Williams is not mentioned. Searching the whole site by player's name only comes up with a John Williams who died in 1916. It is possible that site does not hold the names of all of the footballers that served and died in WW1.
ADDED The newspaper article that you mentioned gives his age as 34 years thus implying that he was born circa 1880. The only birth registration that I can find for a James William Williams was for the March quarter 1884 in the Chester le Street district, mothers maiden name of Shipley. Would this be 'your man'?
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Daily Mirror, 3 Sep 1909
Clapton Orient open their league campaign tomorrow ...L A Louch, the amateur centre forward ... his place will be taken by Williams.
Williams, who comes from the Bury club, is a thickset, bustling type of forward and he scored the only goal which enabled the Orient reserves to defeat Croydon Common reserves at Selhurst on Wednesday.
Of course, more Williamses than you can shake a stick at - but will check for possible transfer press report.
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The only James William Williams that I can find in my Football League Players Records (1888-1939) who played for Bury (1906) was, I think, the Welsh one.
b. Buckley (? Wrexham) May 1884 2 caps for Wales.
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There is a Jack Walter Williams b, Washington 12.1885 who played for Bury 1904- 1905 and Clapton/Leyton in 1909
PS he first played for Hebburn Argyle
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The Jack Walter Williams would fit the report you found,HT
There is a Jack Walter Williams b, Washington 12.1885 who played for Bury 1904- 1905 and Clapton/Leyton in 1909
PS he first played for Hebburn Argyle
Daily Mirror, 3 Sep 1909
Clapton Orient open their league campaign tomorrow ...L A Louch, the amateur centre forward ... his place will be taken by Williams.
Williams, who comes from the Bury club, is a thickset, bustling type of forward and he scored the only goal which enabled the Orient reserves to defeat Croydon Common reserves at Selhurst on Wednesday.
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Wiki has this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Williams_(footballer,_born_1885)
Also https://worddisk.com/wiki/Jack_Williams_(footballer,_born_1885)/
Add - I come from a line of Welsh footballers ;D
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Finding Williams with his initial/s in any of the Clapton Orient match reports is proving difficult. He's always referred to as just "Williams". In one match where Clapton scored 8, and the scorers named with their initials, he failed to score!!
The newspaper report of his deserting his wife and 3 children in 1914 gives his age as 34 (born c.1880)
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I do think that the one that I've found fits the OP's football career info and localities.
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Thank you so much, I'm 99% sure that Jack Walter Williams isn't our James William Williams, however, here's a little more to explain why I was looking.
When JWW married the great grandmother (1907) he referenced his profession as miner. In the 1911 census, completed by his grandfather (his mother's father) his profession was listed as "coal miner, when at work" < which first of all had us thinking that perhaps he was a footballer and that the family didn't think this was a "real job". But on reading the 1914 reports, when he was sentenced to 2 months for abandoning the great grandmother he was described as a "loiterer", I wonder if it was football or just talk.
I have JWW from his birth cert as born on 15 Dec 1883 in Washington, Co. Durham - his WWI register of effects and pension details support this, with the grandmother referenced on it. He served in the 22nd DLI battalion, the Pioneers (they dug comms trenches, laid railway lines) and then in March 1918 had to fight as infantrymen. JWW died on 25th March 1918 and is commemorated on the Poziere memorial.
There was no mention of a footballing ancestor until we started looking at the history, and my father in law dug out his parent's marriage certificate and noticed that when his mother, Mary Ethel Williams, referenced her father as James William Williams "Professional Footballer" (deceased.)
I think it might be a bit beyond him to have created a pseudonym - but will try looking at Jack Walter and see if it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
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I'm wondering if the fact that there were 2 James William Williams playing football at the same time meant that your one changed his 'professional' name. It seems more than a coincidence that Jack Walter is down as b, Dec 1885, Washington - 3s and 5s are very similar and could have been wrongly written in the accounts. Jack seems to fit most of the details. We really need to find football reports or whatever that gives his full name.
What address was he living at in 1901?
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In 1901 he was at 23 New Rows, Usworth Durham - so it's not unrealistic that he could have played for Hebburn Arygle.
He was aged 18 on the census, single, working as a "coal putter - below" and was staying with his grandparents (mother's parents), with his brother Joseph (aged 8)
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oops. his brother Joseph was aged 8.
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Has anyone found Jack Walter in censuses or birth records?
If the newspaper article references the footballer abandoning his wife, do you think that is coincidence?
Ignore that. I see the abandonment was in the name of James William. I was getting confused. ::)
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The Sunderland Echo article (1914), referencing him being sentenced to 2 months hard labour says that he had been previously convicted 3 times for a similar offence (for abandoning his wife and children) (and his wife was as much to blame as him (!).
I've attached the report I pulled from the English National Football Archive about Jack Williams and discounted. I also have the specific games that Jack played for Bury, Clapton Orient.
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There doesn't seem to be a John or Jack or Jacob Walter Williams* in the GRO records** that fits the info from the football records I'm thinking he used an alias.
* also excluding Walter
** Chester le Street was the Reg Dist for Washington in those days
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Newcastle Journal, 18 Aug 1910
"South Shields A.F.C. have signed on two new forwards, namely Grainger of Blyth Spartans and Williams of Clapton Orient. The latter player scored 8 goals in one match last season."
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Sorry!
No here it is - I know nothing about football and thought Clapton Orient was a northern club ::)
http://lc4mkm.xara.hosting/orientdiary/orientdiary.htm
Scroll down to 1909- 10
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:-) Thanks
I also communicated with the historian of Leyton Orient/Clapton Orient about 18 months ago and he confirmed that they signed a Jack Williams, so I'll go back to him and see if there's anything that they can give me that could clarify the Jack/James etc. Perhaps there are some docs on next of kin or something that they hold.
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Heywood,
Magic - we have "Jack Williams, centre forward, 1909-1910" which fits the 1909 transfer from Bury.
Also, not being mentioned in 1910/11 squad, fits the transfer of a Williams to South Shields.