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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: Genie24 on Saturday 15 January 22 17:42 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to trace the daughter of my great x 4 grandfather's brother. She is Rose Ann Dunning born about 1826 Ireland married to Henry Bonner., also born in Ireland the same year. They married on the 8th April 1861 at St. Lawrence Catholic Church, Greenock and gave their address as 3 Broad Close. This is the address the Dunning family lived and her mother died there but Rose Ann and Henry were not living there on the 1861 census which was taken the day before their wedding on the 7th April.
After a lot of searching, I eventually found them on the 1871 census on Scotland's People living at 57 Shaw Street, East Back Land, Greenock. That record is not on Ancestry.
They had, as far as I can trace, 6 children but 4 died in infancy. Only Mary Ann and Catherine survived as far as 1871 and appear on the census record.
Then the family just seem to disappear off the face of the earth. I would particularly like to trace Rose Ann's death but unfortunately both of their surnames are widely mis-transcribed.
Any help or ideas would be very much appreciated.
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Have you considered they may have returned to Ireland or did any of their children marry in Scotland?
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Yes, I have considered that or perhaps USA or elsewhere. The rest of the Dunnings tended to stay put but that does not mean that they didn't decide to leave. I know my great x 3 grandmother was born in Londonderry and DNA backs that up and Donegal so maybe they will appear back in Ireland.
There are several marriages for Catherine Bonners I could work through but pretty expensive viewing them all. Then of course there are the spelling variations to check.
I am hoping that they will just 'pop up' somehow like often happens under a ridiculously mis-transcribed name.
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Have you checked this death on Scotland's People
Roseanne Bonnar 1871 Greenock Old or West age 40
Mothers maiden name Duman
Rosie
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Intimations ...
1871 Rose, wife of Henry Bonnar, labourer, died at Union Court, Greenock on 29th August 1871 (Greenock Telegraph 31.8.1871)
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Oh my goodness! Yes, that has to be her. I looked at the Greenock Telegraph intimations too. As I suspected, yet another mis-transcription. So she died not long after the census so that is why I couldn't find her on subsequent censuses.
Once again, you wonderful people on Rootschat have come to the rescue. I can't thank you enough.
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I now have the death certificate for Rose Ann. I can't believe I missed it. I did check for spelling variations but she is recorded under Roseanne. It confirms her husband, his occupation and father John Dunnan. Mother is recorded Catherine Dunnan which is incorrect. It was Margaret but I guess that is just an error.
I had surmised she died in childbirth but the cause was Heart Disease.
I am having difficulty finding the Greenock Intimation so would be grateful if anyone has any tips to help me find it.
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You will find it here www.inverclyde.gov.uk/community-life-and-leisure/heritage-services/watt-library/family-history/intimations-surname-index
Click on Intimations Surnames B
It is the last entry on page 310, running into 311.
Monica
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Thank you so much Monica for that. Once again, you have helped me. You and everyone else are absolutely amazing. I am extremely grateful.
I've still to find Rose Ann's husband Henry and children though. It never ends!
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Glad it was the right death certificate seen a few records for the 2 girls but hard to say if it's them ???
Rosie
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Did you check this death for a Henry Bonar 1876 Greenock
Age 44 years mothers maiden name Green ?
Rosie
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Again, I don't know why I didn't find this in my searches but it is the correct record. Thank you so much. Poor Henry died in the Poorhouse. His mother's name Green is different to the one his gives on his marriage record (looks like McGarrigle) but his occupation, wife and father's name confirms it's him. It reads:
Henry Bonar Quay Labourer widow of Rose Anne died 1876 December sixth 11 hrs 35 mins am Poorhouse Greenock. Father Hugh Bonar (occupation illegible) deceased. Mother Helen Bonar M.S Green. Cause of death Cardiac Dropsy. Informant was the Poorhouse Porter.
Perhaps his father remarried. It also rules out the possibility that the two girls could be living with their grandparents. I am guessing they were in the poorhouse too or living with other relatives.
I have a possible 1891 census record for Catherine boarding at 3 Cameron Court Off North Street, Anderston, Glasgow. Catherine Bonnar aged 19 born abt. 1862 Renfrewshire Greenock - Laundress Servant.
I also found a possible marriage for Mary Ann in 1895. She would have been well into her 30s but the groom was living nearby in Dalrymple Street, an address associated with my Greenock family. but when I bought the record, it wasn't correct. This Mary Ann Bonnar was a widow.
Anyway, I am a lot further forward than I was thanks to everyone who has kindly taken the time to look for me.
Many thanks!
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Again glad it was the right person the Mitchell Library might have records on the family you could maybe e-mail them and see if they can help
Rosie
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There is a Mary Bonnar date of birth out 1859 unmarried age 32 born Greenock
Occupation Laundress she is a inmate on the 1891 census
Victoria Place Woman's Refuge off Lady Lane High Church Paisley Renfrewshire
Could be a possibility
Rosie
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Thanks worth checking out. How do I access that record? The possible census record I found for Catherine also recorded her as a Laundress.
I checked the 1881 census record for Greenock Poorhouse. There was a Rose Anne Bonnar aged 4 - Pauper but not associated with this family as she was born about 1877 well after both parents died. It is possible she is a member of Henry's family though. No other Bonner/Bonnar/ Bonars on there at all so I can rule that option out.
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The record for Mary Bonnar birth year 1859 Greenock is on Ancestry and findmypast
The original can be viewed on Scotland's People
Rosie
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Found it. Many thanks. I have attached it to her profile for now. I think it is a good possiblilty.
My main objective is to find Rose Anne Bonner nee Dunning's father John Dunning born in Ireland about 1800. He was my great x 4 grandfather Patrick Dunning's brother. I have a full record for him and DNA evidence to prove John as his brother. I have his wife's death on the 24th February 1866 at 3 Broad Close. Widow of John Dunning Farmer. This is the address Rose Ann gave on her marriage record. It is John's death record that can yield the best information but I have never been able to find it. Guess I will have to try harder.
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When did the Dunning family arrive in Scotland do you think? Have you got John in any census entry in Scotland or was wife already widowed on your first sighting of her?
Monica
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Monica I think this is the family on the 1861 census transcribed as Dinning
Address 5,Broad Close Greenock
Margaret Dinning ( head ) age 63 born Ireland
Patrick Dinning age 22 born Ireland (Quay labourer ) son
Sarah Dinning age 19 born Ireland ( General servant )daughter
Patrick Dinning age 23 born Ireland ( Smith's labourer ) nephew
Rosie
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Yes Monica and Rosie. That is them on the 1861 census. John Dunning is deceased but I don't know when. He was dead when his son Matthew (Rose Ann's brother) married on the 23rd November 1857.
My great x 4 grandfather Patrick or Peter Dunning was in Greenock in 1841 boarding at 24 Market Street. He lived between number 24 and 26 for the rest of his life, dying at number 24. His family had joined him from Ireland before 1851. I don't know if his brother came with him or much later.
Strangely, different mother's names are recorded on the records. Rose Ann's marriage states her mother was Margaret Dunning and that was also her maiden name so both Dunnings, but her death record states Catherine Dunning. Matthew's marriage record states his mother is Rose Ann Dunning maiden name I think Tierney and she was not recorded as deceased so this may be a clue. His death record in 1888 states his mother was Margaret Dunning deceased. Very strange.
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Think a lot depends on information given by the person registering the death but you would say information on the Marriage for Mathew Dunnion he would know ???
Problem with different variations of the spelling of the surname does not help think we should look for baptisms in Ireland ..I see the family were RC
Rosie
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Thanks for the 1861 census details, Rosie :)
Genie24, have you figured out who the nephew Patrick was who was with the family in 1861? Was he the son of your Patrick or of another sibling to John?
Monica
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I checked the nephew Hugh McLean aged 10 years on the 1881 census with Mathew Dunning. His mother was Margaret Dunning looks like another child of John and Margaret Dunning ..She married a Hugh McLean 1867 Ayr record as Margaret Dinnie /Dunnan
Father John Dunnan ( farmer deceased ) Mother Margaret Dunnan deceased
Rosie
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Possible 1861 census record Roman Catholic School St Quivox Ayrshire
Margaret Dinning age 17 born Ireland ( servant )
Rosie
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Apologies Monica and Rosie. I didn't get a notification so wasn't aware of your replies. Sorry!
No, I have never worked out the nephew Patrick on the 1861 census. It's a mystery! However, I have just discovered a sister for my Patrick. A long story but it emerged after researching the person who purchased a lair where several Dunning descendants lie buried. It's taken 5 years to work out his identity. His mother was Jane Dunning. This Patrick could be her illegitimate son or the son of another sibling I haven't discovered yet. I have no other Patricks in my tree born around that time. Patrick had a son Peter, who could also be a Patrick but he was born about 1856.
I can't trace the census record you refer to for Hugh McLean living with Matthew Dunning. Are you able to direct me to finding it as he is not in my tree. I am very interested as his parents are recorded as John Dunning farmer and Margaret Dunnan but John Dunning's wife died in 1866. Or I have misunderstoon and it was Hugh McLean's mother Margaret who had parents John and Margaret. If Margaret was the daughter of John and Margaret, then I've missed her completely.
The 1861 St. Quivox census for Margaret sounds promising too.
Very much appreciated.
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Right, it's very strange but Hugh McLean does not show on the 1881 census I have for Matthew Dunning at 6 Trafalgar Street, Yet he does appear separately with a John McMenniman who I assume is a child of a brother of his wife Sarah McMennamin. There are only two of them on the record. So, this does appear that Margaret is a sibling I knew nothing about. It's very exciting. That's two new Dunnings I've discovered in just a few days.
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It's on the transcribed census on findmypast address 6,Trafalgar Street
You are right about the other census record
Hugh Alexander McLean was born 2 May 1870
Maybole Ayr Scotland
Father Hugh McLean
Mother Margaret Dinnie
The marriage for his parents was in 1867 Ayr as I mentioned so her mother was deceased by then ( 1866) If you PM your email I will send you the copy
Rosie
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I think I should add that I have another mysterious Margaret Dinning (Dunning) who I had put on the back burner for a while. I have her in my tree as the daughter of Patrick Dunning and Sarah Docherty but I know she is not. Her marriage record shows that her parents were John Dunning and Mary Kanlay.
However, her father cannot be the same John Dunning who was the father of the Margaret Dunning married to Hugh McLean. This one was married to William Reid and according the census records, she was born about 1840 Ayrshire. The dates range from 1838-1845 but her age at the time of her marriage suggests 1837.
But here is the strange thing, I just noticed, as I haven't looked at her for a while that she was also in St. Quivox, Ayr on the 1861 census . She married there in 1857. Her son, Hugh, was born at 6 Smith's Lane, Greenock on the 28th February 1863. The very next entry is my great x 3 grandmother's daughter Helen born on the 5th March 1863 at 1 Highland Close. My great x 3 grandmother, Ellen McKenzie nee Dunning was living at number 7 Smith's Lane on the 1861 census with her sister Isabelle married to Andrew McFarlane.
It's a complicated puzzle indeed but I think this Margaret Dunning is as closely related as the other one.
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I have another mysterious Margaret Dinning (Dunning). Her marriage record shows that her parents were John Dunning and Mary Kanlay.
This one was married to William Reid and according the census records, she was born about 1840 Ayrshire. The dates range from 1838-1845 but her age at the time of her marriage suggests 1837.
she was also in St. Quivox, Ayr on the 1861 census . She married there in 1857. Her son, Hugh, was born at 6 Smith's Lane, Greenock on the 28th February 1863. The very next entry is my great x 3 grandmother's daughter Helen born on the 5th March 1863 at 1 Highland Close. My great x 3 grandmother, Ellen McKenzie nee Dunning was living at number 7 Smith's Lane on the 1861 census with her sister Isabelle married to Andrew McFarlane.
I'm a latecomer to your post but I'd suggest if looking for deaths the surname 'Kanlay' may be a variant of Conlay/Connely/Connelly?
There are no VRs for 1863 specific but in 1865 there were 19 Tenant/Occupiers living at 6 Smiths Lane, Greenock & 2 at no. 7 & 4 at 1 Highland Close - none of the surnames listed but they may have moved/died or had been lodgers with any of the tenants & their names wouldn't be recorded?
Annie
Add...1855 there's a James McKenzie at 6 Smiths Lane & an Andrew Reid at 4 Smiths Lane
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This looks like the death for your other Margaret
Margaret Reid other name Dinnon 1902 Gourock age 61 years mothers maiden name Carlin
I see she is with her son Daniel on the 1901 census in Greenock
Rosie
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Thank you for this latest information. The valuation roll information you gave is very interesting. I have found them to be very helpful.
I think the death you found Rosie has to be the correct one. I will look into getting it when I buy some more credits. Spending a small fortune.
I noticed that on the 1901 census, Margaret is recorded as married and not widowed.
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Is that on the original 1901 census on Scotlands People she is recorded as a widow on the transcribed census on find my past
Rosie
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She is actually recorded as Housewife.
I just bought the death record. It does not give very much information that can help me especially as the informant was a Clerk and not a family member. It reads:
Margaret Reid Hawker married to William Reid Labourer died 1902 June twenty first 7hrs 20mins am Gourock Poorhouse Smithston (had to Google this as was illegible). Usual residence 45 Marlon Street? Greenock aged 61 years. Father John Dinnon Hawker deceased. Mother Mary Dinnon M.S Carlin deceased. Cause of death Debility and Cardiac Arrest.
I had my doubts as her mother's surname is Carlin on this record and what looks like Kanlay on her marriage record but the maiden name Dinnon persuaded me. I searched for other deaths of Dunnings with mother Carlin and the only one that came up was Jessie Dunning died 1870 Glasgow Central District age 25.
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I think this same Margaret appears on a few prison records ??? born Ayr
Margaret Reid/Dynan
Rosie
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I already have the 1881 census at Nelson Street West Prison, Greenock atttached to her. I have a note against it saying it is not confirmed as I wasn't sure about it. I've not seen a Dunyon reference before so looks like it is her. Are you able to direct me to the other prison records please.
I can't find a Marlon Street as recorded on her death record. It must be something similar.
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I already have the 1881 census at Nelson Street West Prison, Greenock atttached to her. I have a note against it saying it is not confirmed as I wasn't sure about it. I've not seen a Dunyon reference before so looks like it is her. Are you able to direct me to the other prison records please.
I can't find a Marlon Street as recorded on her death record. It must be something similar.
Yes I checked the name of the street also and couldn't find anything either several court records on find my past or www.scottishindexes.com Margaret Dillon/Dunning/Dynon or Reid from 1881/1889
Rosie
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I didn't think to look on Scottish Indexers. I've got some great records from there in the past. I've just looked and it's not coming up. I'm obviously not putting the search in correctly.
I looked at the old Greenock street names and there is nothing on there that looks remotely like Marlon Street. I thought it started with an 'm' but maybe it doesn't. I will try to scrutinise it a bit more.
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Success, I've found the prison records now. Many thanks.
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Success, I've found the prison records now. Many thanks.
Glad you found them ;)
Rosie
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Usual residence 45 Marlon Street?
I had my doubts as her mother's surname is Carlin on this record and what looks like Kanlay on her marriage record but the maiden name Dinnon persuaded me.
Is it possible the street name is Hamilton Street?
With Irish people I find many variants of surnames as the names probably originated in their Gaelic form, coupled with Irish accents.
I have Cullen/Cullinan/Conley & McMahon/McMann/McManus although there's the same problem with Scottish Highland surnames for the same reason.
Annie
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Hi Genie
dont know if this helps you
I haven’t been doing to much research these days but looking at my Malone family again as couldn’t find then on 1911
I came across Patrick Dinan’s marriage
he married a Margaret Malone 1870 his parents are
Matthew Dinan and Ann Malone
Margaret’s parents are fathers name is hard to read ? Malone
mothers name is Catherine Malone m/s is blank
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Rosinish, it really doesn't look like Hamilton Street even though I do have links with that address.
elaine447, ,thanks so much for your input. This Patrick Dunning I think is my great x 3 grandmother Ellen Dunning's brother Matthew's son. Matthew was born about 1835 -1879 married to Ann Malone and I think another marriage to Margaret Pearson. I am assuming you are referring to a marriage record. Do you have Patrick's parent's names to confirm this?
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Genie
it is a marriage cert dated 27th June 1870 and his parents are definitely
Matthew Dinan and Ann Malone
they were living in 29 and 32 Dalrymple street
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I have links to Dalrymple Street. If these are your ancestors, then I guess we are related.
I will look more closely into this tomorrow as its late. Thanks for joining the post.
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I can’t find a link with my Malone family and this Margaret or Ann Malone but you never know further down the line
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Oh I see. Well, you never know. The marriage certificate is definitely useful to me to I very much appreciate that.
If I can help in any way, don't hesitate to ask.
Many thanks
Julie x
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Julie, if you haven't come across this already, this will be useful for you with so many of your family members in Greenock.
It is a great guide to the streets names at the time of the 1901 census: 1901 census street index - Greenock, Gourock and Port Glasgow area, National Records of Scotland www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/research/census-records/street-indexes/1901/1901-greenock.pdf
Doesn't help at all with finding 'Marlon St' though ;D Could you post a snip with this section on here?
Monica
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Thanks Monica but unfortunately, the link won't open. We're away for a few days hiding away from Covid.
However, I followed a link from you on another post to street names and now think it is Moncur Street. I think I've found my Margaret McLean nee Dunning living at 20 Moncur Street which I think may be the address on the death certificate. It states it's a corporation lodging house. She was living at 163 Moncur Street several years previously.
I very much appreciate your help as always Monica.
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Glad you found her eventually ;)
Rosie
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As Rosie says, we are happy to hear you figured it out :)
Re the street names, just google street names of greenock for 1901 census and this link will pop up from the NRS.
Monica
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Thanks so much for the advice.Will do.
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This sad report from both the "Dundee Evening Telegraph" and the "Glasgow Herald" dated Wednesday, 23rd June 1880. "Child Run Over And Killed. Yesterday forenoon in Greenock, while a little boy, aged 3 years, named Henry Bonnar, son of a labourer residing in Highland Close, was "scobbing" sugar from hogsheads which were being transported on a car along Shaw Street, the little fellow stumbled and fell in front of the wheel, which passed over him, death being instantaneous."
Regards, Dod.
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Thank you, Dod ... now added to my ever-growing list of sugar industry fatalities at www.mawer.clara.net/fatalities.html
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Thanks for that Dod. Poor Henry was the son of the brother of Rose Ann Dunning's husband Henry Bonner/Bonnar - James Bonner Labourer and his wife Sarah Bonner maiden name Bonner. I already have his death certificate which states the cause of death was 'killed by cartwheel passing over the head' so this explains what happened in more detail. Their address was 7 Highlands Close.
I had to Google what Hogsheads were and I believe they are the barrels that blocks of sugar were stored in. I gather poor Henry was trying to eat it or pinch it.
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Margaret Reid Hawker married to William Reid Labourer died 1902 June twenty first
Usual residence 45 Marlon Street? Greenock
now think it is Moncur Street. I think I've found my Margaret McLean nee Dunning living at 20 Moncur Street which I think may be the address on the death certificate. It states it's a corporation lodging house. She was living at 163 Moncur Street several years previously.
It looks as though there's been an error as Moncur Street is listed in Glasgow rather than Greenock?
From the info. you provided the only info. closest to the date of "Margaret Reid Hawker married to William Reid Labourer died 1902 June twenty first" ...
MODEL LODGING 20 MONCUR STREET GLASGOW - 1905 - VR010200573-
WALKER AGNES M, Inhabitant Occupier, HOUSE 20 MONCUR STREET GLASGOW 1905 - VR010200573-
It seems rather odd there's only 1 person named for such a large building ???
Annie
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It seems rather odd there's only 1 person named for such a large building ???
The Valuation Rolls list only the name of the householder, not of any other people who may be living there. This is because it was compiled for the purpose of assessing how much was due to be paid as rates (local tax) and the assessors were only interested in recording the name of the one person who was responsible for paying the rates for the premises.
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Apologies as it appears I have confused everyone even more than I am myself.
I've got a bit mixed up with my 2 Margaret Dunnings. One was married to William Reid and died 21st June 1902 at Greenock Poorhouse, Smithston, Gourock. Usual residence 45 Marlon Street or at least that is what it looks like.
The other was married to Hugh McLean and died on the 14th June 1915 in Marnhull Poorhouse, Glasgow. Residence lodging house 20 Moncur Street.
I'm afraid I got my wires crossed and believed Moncur Street was the correct transcription for Marlon Street but they are different streets and that address is still not clear.
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Thought you had got them mixed up ;).The problem of having 2 Margaret Dunnings :D
I think Margaret McLean would have died at Barnhill Poor house
Rosie
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Yes it was Barnhill. That was a typo but thought I corrected it.
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Yes it was Barnhill. That was a typo but thought I corrected it.
;D ;D