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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: 1000xlch on Wednesday 12 January 22 14:10 GMT (UK)
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Trying to find the ship he sailed on from UK. Apparently a man from Adelaide bought Clydesdale horses for breeding in South Australia and James was charged with looking after them on the boat. Jame then bought a farm in Laura and kept dairy cows. He married in 1931 to Francis Edith Longbottom in Burra District. He died 1967 buried in Port Adelaide, she died 1988, buried in Laura. Cannot find any details of the farm in Laura. Suspect he sailed between 1915 to 1920? Any help appreciated.
Thanks John Rowley
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Hi there,
Some thoughts ...
I wonder if any horses were allowed to be imported .... aftterall our AIF personnel were not permitted to bring their horses home .... significant bio security issues, etc.
Could the Clydesdales have been shipped from interstate rather than from Britain. If so your chap may have been quite young when migrating from Britain.
If you chap was in Britain 1915, and born 1899, would he have been called up by Britain to serve in WWI ? Australia's AIF were all volunteers.
JM
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James was with the Scots Guards during WW1, and was demobilised in mid 1919. He was described as a ploughman on his army attestation. So immigration would have to be after 1919.
As suggested above by JM, he possibly brought horses from another state in Australia. I would have thought that in the 1920s horses and cattle might be moved overland, rather than by ship.
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Here is a newspaper article about clydesdale importation from Scotland to SA.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/137396789?searchTerm=Clydesdale
Did your James come with these horses?
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Forsythe - Longbottom wedding
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/36052860
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Yes, possible shipping from say Bourke in NSW down the Darling - Murray River system.... Many a DROVER plant's boss was known as Captain. Bourke was a significant inland port servicing inland Qld and NSW until the 1930s Great Depression. The catchment for Lake EYRE extends way up into Qld, horses need significant water daily and the Travelling Stock Routes had wells and tanks .... bores quite salty. My DROVING forebears preferred to move herds of sheep and cattle. Sorry for capitals .... predictative woteva is trying to take charge. ONE FINGER JM
JM
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This passenger list for PERSIC to Adelaide from Nov 1925 has a James Forsyth -mysteriously written in pencil but no other information.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSD2-S4DH-V?cc=2613135&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQPWX-6C4Q
The date might match with the importation of horses noted in above newspaper article?
PERSIC passenger list also available here:
https://archives.sa.gov.au/sites/default/files/documentstore/passengerlists/1925/GRG_41_34_0_204-1925_Persic.pdf
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This passemger list to Adelaide from Nov 1925 has a James Forsyth -mysteriously written in pencil but no other information.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSD2-S4DH-V?cc=2613135&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQPWX-6C4Q
The date might match with the importation of horses noted in above newspaper article?
Same handwriting as those in blue ink. But it has Melb for occupation.... what job description is a Melb .... a chef makes Peach Melba, a Dame Melba sings at opening of Parliament House, so could Melb be abbreviation for Melbourne.... and is that his port of embarkation or dis-elaboration.... So many thoughts . I just love these spelling over-rides. Errrer d'oh. ??? Dis-elaboration ;D :D ;D ::) :P
JM
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Yes, horses were onboard that ship PERSIC
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/20964434/1631768
Actually , along with the actors, a bit of a zoo onboard! :D
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More about PERSIC
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129750707?searchTerm=Persic
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/212961160?searchTerm=Persic
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73619195?searchTerm=Persic
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'The Mares have come out in charge of Mr David Adams of Aucheneraig, Dumbartonshire.' I can just see Clydesdales being in charge ....
More about PERSIC
....
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73619195?searchTerm=Persic
JM
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Agh .... and of course 'Supercargo' not often well documented on passenger lists, as they were accommodated in stalls WITH the animals...
JM
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More about PERSIC
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129750707?searchTerm=Persic
They were “shipped” by Mr. Adams. He wasn’t onboard.
2 clydesdales and their 2 foals - more than 1 man needed to managed them during the voyage?
Being a ploughman, James would be familiar with working and handling clydesdales.
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Agh .... and of course 'Supercargo' not often well documented on passenger lists, as they were accommodated in stalls WITH the animals...
JM
I believe so. :)
That would explain why his name appears at the bottom of the passenger list without any additional detail. The other person,(Sutherland) name in pencil below James, may have also been travelling with livestock - the race horses?
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I am still constructing those images of the Clydesdales in charge. Newspapers would never get important details like that W R O N G :P :P :P
:) ADD
Its just the wording ! so back in the early 1800s, NSW expression when land grants were being made and prices were being set .... the price would be recorded as UPSET price.... as in 21st century wording upset would be written as set up.
JM ;D
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https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/PassengerSearch.aspx
Some further names for passengers .... alas still no sighting for James.
ITEM no. 30241476 passengers per the PERSIC from Liverpool to Australia via Albany (WA) 5 November 1925.
Helen MAGU
George MARTIN
Betty PARSONS
Jean PARSONS
Winifred PARSONS
Sarah RICHARDSON
Jean SHARP
Helen WILLIAMSON
John WILLIAMSON
JM
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https://slwa.wa.gov.au/dead_reckoning/government_archival_records/n-s/passenger_lists
Albany
ACC 108: Port of Albany. Unbound lists of arrivals and departures for the port of Albany 1873-1932
Overseas passenger lists are indexed for 1873-1925 and some eastern states passenger lists are being indexed (see section on Indexes). A listing of this series can be found in AN 371.
JM
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Cannot find any details of the farm in Laura.
Information about Laura here from Prof. Google
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura,_South_Australia
I had no luck finding the name of the farm. Others with more knowledge of South Australia may have more success.
This link here might be a useful contact for more information on the location of the farm.
https://explore.history.sa.gov.au/organisation/rocky-river-historic-art-society
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Thanks all for the information will try and follow up all links. The reason I know so much is my auntie from Scotland stayed with James on the farm at Laura for 6 months and had a job. He had 4 children who I know about and my auntie is in contact with one of them. So looks like either across land etc in Australia or boat with horses, but as people have said the quarantine rules etc. Will report back when I find some more information.
John Rowley
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John, My initial thinking around importing animals was changed during the thread as evidence emerged of the cargo on PERSIC 1925. There’s no doubt in my mind, that is your James, even though the passenger list lacks enough detail to verify 100 %.
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Thanks Neale 1961 it sort of looks that way that may be overland from another Australian state. Weird I found 1919 a Private J M Forsyth on Port Lincoln boat for Adelaide on Genes Reunited thanks to another poster tipping me off. Cannot see the record though and is the outgoing list from the UK! Just checked the South Australian gov website of 1909-1924 offical pasenger lists into the country and he is not on at all. The Port Lincoln boat from Australian archives 1919 does not show a J M Forsyth only a married female and her daughter. So outgoing lists him but the incoming one does not!
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Further reseach does indeed indicate he was a private in the Scots Guards 1914 demobbed 1919, occupation was ploughman, so it must be him on the Port Lincoln boat to Adelaide 1919 but military personnel were not officially listed! Have seen the passenger for that boat and he not on there. There is a Mrs M Forsyth and a daughter though. Also suspect the 1925 article of Persic boat is also him with the Clydesdales.
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See my post # 2 about James serving with the Scots Gurards. His military record is available online.
I can assure you that the Scots Guard NEVER served in Australia during WW1.
James was demobilized on 4 April 1919. He was then a civilian and would have been unable to travel as a military service man. At that time, farm workers were in demand, and he would have returned to his farm work.
If you have found a Private J Forsyth inbound to Adelaide in 1919, (although you have no record ! ), it will most probably be an Australian soldier returning after the war. For the reasons above, it is quite improbable that it is your Scotsman James.
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'...Mr Forsyth came from Scotland in 1925...'
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article97263003
M
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Thanks for the link Matthew which supports other documents already found for 1925.
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Photo of Mrs J Forsyth, Laura SA, 1951
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93862796
Photo - J Forsyth with clydesdale, 1938?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article131541271
M
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Matthew, nice photos with the horses!
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Great Finds Matthew
Agree with Neale.
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Thanks all for the info on the forum, I have just received data from the daughter of James that confirms the 1925 boat Persic and the penciled in James Forsyth! Basically he left home on 24th Sept in Scotland signed up for the boat and left Liverpool Docks 26 Sept 1925 arr Adelaide 9th nov 1925 discharge paper off boat 10th nov 1925, then he delivers Clydesdales to Mr J D Dawkins at Newbold Gawler River, then starts work at James Maitland Clydesdale Stud, Anama Station 24th nov 1925, He marries in Nov 1931 at Ironmine Methodist Church then moves to Spalding in Feb 1942, and in July 1942 moves to Laura. He died at Adelaide in Oct 1967. Finally another piece in the jigsaw puzzle. Would not have been possible without the forum help. Much appreciated!
John