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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: Vixen999 on Tuesday 11 January 22 18:10 GMT (UK)
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Hi was hoping for some help with the following information as I am rather confused and trying to unstick myself on doing a friends family tree. There are family trees on ancestry but Im not convinced that they are necessarily correct and so Im looking for proof and records
Im confused with regards a Caroline Bennett, born 9th Oct 1879, registered 1880 Wolverhampton mmn Cooper. She had a number of children as follows which I believe to be correct
Knight Bennett
1899–1960
Gladys Bennett
1904–
William Bennett
1906–1983
Elizabeth Bennett
1909–
Harold Bennett
1911–
Robert Bennett
1914–2004
Hilda Bennett
1914–
On the 1911 Census, she is single, unmarried living with Knight Gudger aged 63 and is down as married. However, his wife, Anna Oliphant remarried in 1903 to a Joseph Strafford. Caroline is down aged 30 in 1911. On Caroline's sons wedding bans, william, it has his dad as Knight Bennett, deceased. I cannot find any marriage records at all for Caroline or a Knight Bennett. Carolines parents are Jane Cooper and William Bennett. Also on the 1911 census is a son of Knight Gudger a William Radcliffe Gudger who is married, aged 24. Caroline and her children are down as boarders.
Any help in deciphering what is going on with this one would be gratefully received as Im not sure why William would put that his dad is a Knight Bennett when Caroline is unmarried. Knight Gudger is clearly older than Caroline and was married to someone else. Did they have an affair despite the massive age gap? Caroline went on to marry George William Willmer and is a widow on the 1939 census as he died 1935
Thanks all
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Knight Gudger or Knight Bennett?
Knight Gudger married Annie Oliphant 1881 South Shields
Knight Gudger - only death is 1918 Oldham aged 70 which ties in with this birth but not with his 1911 birthplace of Yorkshire. Living in Oldham in 1911
March qtr 1848 Ashton & Oldham 20 120
Looks like the Strafford marriage was bigamous & no marriage between Caroline & Knight
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In 1891 Knight Gudger is 43 & Annie is 29 so a 14yr age difference there.
Caroline BENNETT married 1927 to George Willmer which indicates there was no marriage between her & Knight Gudger
The only issue I can see here is a bigamous marriage in 1903
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Info re Knight Gudger only
Gaol Record Detail For: Knight Gudger
Record ID: 34114
Commital Year: 1875
Reference Doc: BLARS QGV12/2
ID in Reference Doc: 606
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Occupation: 105th Regiment Private 1434
Offence: Desertion
Date Received: 15/09/1875
Type of Gaol: Bedford Gaol
Sentence: 112 Days & Stoppages
Discharge Date: 26/12/1875
He appears to have used an Alias as well
Name: James Smith
[Knight Gudger]
Age: 27
Birth Year: Abt 1849
Birth Place: Oldham, Lancashire
Desertion Date: 3 Jun 1876
Desertion Place: Aldershot
Publication Date: 30 Jun 1876
Regimental Number: 1434
Military Corps: 105th Foot
Knight had banns of marriage read in 1880 Prestwich St Mary, other party Geneva Ward.
In 1867 sentenced to 14 days hard labour for being drunk & disorderly.
John
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William Radcliffe Gudger is a son from Knight's marriage to Ann Oliphant
John
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Knight Gudger or Knight Bennett?
Knight Gudger married Annie Oliphant 1881 South Shields
Knight Gudger - only death is 1918 Oldham aged 70 which ties in with this birth but not with his 1911 birthplace of Yorkshire. Living in Oldham in 1911
March qtr 1848 Ashton & Oldham 20 120
Well thats where the confusion lies. On one of carolines kids wedding bans, it has the dad down as Knight bennett!!! but is a boarder with Knight Gudger in 1911. I have found no marriage for Caroline for either a Knight Bennett or a Knight Gudger. On the 1911 Census it has Caroiine as single. Gudger is down as married. So I know Caroline was born as a Bennett and the fact that none of her kids have her mmn down on the gro records indicates born out of wedlock to me
Looks like the Strafford marriage was bigamous & no marriage between Caroline & Knight
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Info re Knight Gudger only
Gaol Record Detail For: Knight Gudger
Record ID: 34114
Commital Year: 1875
Reference Doc: BLARS QGV12/2
ID in Reference Doc: 606
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Occupation: 105th Regiment Private 1434
Offence: Desertion
Date Received: 15/09/1875
Type of Gaol: Bedford Gaol
Sentence: 112 Days & Stoppages
Discharge Date: 26/12/1875
He appears to have used an Alias as well
Name: James Smith
[Knight Gudger]
Age: 27
Birth Year: Abt 1849
Birth Place: Oldham, Lancashire
Desertion Date: 3 Jun 1876
Desertion Place: Aldershot
Publication Date: 30 Jun 1876
Regimental Number: 1434
Military Corps: 105th Foot
Knight had banns of marriage read in 1880 Prestwich St Mary, other party Geneva Ward.
In 1867 sentenced to 14 days hard labour for being drunk & disorderly.
John
Hi John you mentioned banns of marriage in 1880 when he married Geneva Ward. What name was he using then??
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Knight Gudger or Knight Bennett?
Knight Gudger married Annie Oliphant 1881 South Shields
Knight Gudger - only death is 1918 Oldham aged 70 which ties in with this birth but not with his 1911 birthplace of Yorkshire. Living in Oldham in 1911
March qtr 1848 Ashton & Oldham 20 120
Looks like the Strafford marriage was bigamous & no marriage between Caroline & Knight
Well thats where the confusion lies....Knight Gudger was already married and Caroline was single on the 1911 census. One of her children on the marriage bans lists their father as Knight Bennett not Gudger. But there are no marriage records for a Knight Bennett or a Knight Gudger having married Caroline. Also if Knight Gudger was infact the dad of her children why would he then change his name to Bennett as put down on the sons wedding bans. It does however say that Knight Bennett is deceased when her son married in the late twenties and Knight Gudger did die before this.
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There is a Knight Gudger tree on Ancestry - have you seen it?
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There is a Knight Gudger tree on Ancestry - have you seen it?
yes but i find a lot of trees on ancestry contain errors where people juz copy other peoples trees without checking records whereas I try and find the evidence before adding people. Thats why Im posting here to try and work out the confusion before growing my friends tree rather than just copying what someone else has put. I did take a look and they have no records lisited for the information they have on their tree so you do have to question how they have arrived at what they have.
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Knight used the surname gudger re the 1880 marriage banns. Details on Findmypast
John
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The fact that Knight Gudger had banns read in 1880 makes me wonder if the below birth is a possible reason for a potential marriage that did not happen.
GUDGER, HANNAH KNIGHT mmn TOMLINSON
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 715
John
Added, don't think so as a Benjamin Gudger married a Mary Jane Tomlinson in 1879
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The fact that Knight Gudger had banns read in 1880 makes me wonder if the below birth is a possible reason for a potential marriage that did not happen.
GUDGER, HANNAH KNIGHT mmn TOMLINSON
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 715
John
Added, don't think so as a Benjamin Gudger married a Mary Jane Tomlinson in 1879
Its quite confusing isnt it. William bennett the son of caroline married Alice Fearn in 1928 and on the bans it does say that his dad is Knight Bennett Deceased. But Caroline did not marry a Knight bennett and was unmarried. Also her birth name was bennett. The only link I can see to the name Knight is through Knight Grudger whom she was lodging with in 1911 who was already married. She went onto marry legitimately and have found the records to show this. Knight bennetts profession was down as an iron worker.
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Thanks for all your efforts everyone, it's really puzzling me.
If Knight Gudger is potentially my grandads father....but who knows?
Anyone know a medium?! ;D
Kind Regards
Michael Knight Alan Bennett
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I’ve had this a few times with my illegitimate ancestors and their siblings. So they have their mothers surname as they were born before the mother and father married and when they themselves get married they give their fathers first name and the vicar or whoever writes down the fathers first name but the bride/grooms surname. So imagine the vicar just says to them “and your fathers name” and they say “knight” (in your case) and then assumes the person getting married has their fathers surname so they write “knight bennet”. Like I say I’ve seen this a few times. Hope this helps.
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I’ve had this a few times with my illegitimate ancestors and their siblings. So they have their mothers surname as they were born before the mother and father married and when they themselves get married they give their fathers first name and the vicar or whoever writes down the fathers first name but the bride/grooms surname. So imagine the vicar just says to them “and your fathers name” and they say “knight” (in your case) and then assumes the person getting married has their fathers surname so they write “knight bennet”. Like I say I’ve seen this a few times. Hope this helps.
This does help thank you and since then its pretty much been ascertained that indeed Knight Gudger was the father of Carolines children and it was Carolines father who was not happy that the children were born out of wedlock hence wanting Bennett down as the surname. Talking of Caroline.......
I dont know whether to make a new post or put it here but here goes...Ive been pretty certain until now that Carolines parents are William Bennett 1842 and Jane Cooper both from Wolverhampton but am now beginning to doubt myself. On the 1911 Census caroline says she is from Longton which is nearer to Newcastle on Lyme than Oldham or wolverhampton. However, when William Bennett died, Jane moved to wolverhampton and all her children apart from Caroline were born in wolverhampton. All of Carolines children were born in Oldham. Any help is ascertaining who carolines parents were gratefully received. Thanks