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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ednalou on Friday 02 September 05 16:51 BST (UK)
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I know I have asked before but I have now got a copy of my grandmothers birth certificate her name was Priscilla Kirman born 16th October 1879 and her mother and father are as follows:-
Thomas Kirman born about 1841 at Asterby/North Thoresby Lincs
Mary Jane Kirman (nee Gossip) born 1850 at Hull Yorkshire.
On my grandmothers birth certificate they were living at
2 Albion Terrace, Walmsley Street Hull.
I am trying to find both Thomas Kirman on the 1861 and 1871 census, but I shall ask for a reuest on the Lincolnshire site.
I would like a copy of the 1851, 1861 and 1871 Census for Mary Jane Gossip at Hull.
I hope someone could help me please.
Regards
Gillian
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This must be Thomas Kirman and his family in 1871. The spelling a little out but it is similar.
If you let me have your e~mail I can send you a copy.
Thomas Furman 1836 Scandlesby Head
Eliza Furman 1841 North Somercoates Wife
Emma E Furman 1865 North Thoresby Dau
Tom Furman 1867 North Thoresby Son
William A Furman 1868 Clee Son
Harriet Furman 1870 Grimsby Dau
The fact that there are 2 children with the same name, ages and place of birth on the 1881 Census and that there is a fairly large age gap between Harriet and Lillian It could be his first wife died and he remarried Mary Jane.
I will keep looking for her.
Regards
Lizzie
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Did the birth certificate of Priscilla actually say Mary Jane Firman nee Gossip. Or did it say previously known as Mary Jane Gossip. This could mean she was previously married and her married name was Gossip not her maiden name.
On the 1881 Census it lists Sarah A Gossip as a visitor not sister in law.
I will keep looking.
Lizzie
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Hi Lizzie
Thank you for looking answer to your question. On my grandmothers birth certificate is says
Father Thomas Kirman Coal Carrier
Mother Mary Jane Kirman (formerly Gossip)
Birth at 2 Albion Terrace Walmsley Street, Hull.
This is the information that is on the birth certificate.
Regards
Gillian
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The fact it says formerly means it could have been her married name before she married Thomas. If her first husband had died she would have been known formerly by that name maybe her maiden name was something else.
You would need to locate Thomas and Mary Janes marriage certificate this would show her as a spinster or a widow.
Did you think the family I gave you of Furman was the correct one.
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Hi Lizzie
My great grandfather was
Thomas Kirman born 1841 and on the 1881 Census it came up as the place he was born at Asterby, with Mary and Children. Census place Sculcoates RG11/4759/20/33 at 2 Albion Terrace. I hope this reference number helps you.
Mary Jane Gossip was born 1850 at Hull. So she would only be about 20 so surely she wouldn't have enough years on her side to be married for the second time unless I have my calculations wrong.
Regards
Gillian
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If Lillian was her first child born c1876 she would have been 26. She could have married Thomas aged 25.
This could have given her 7 years to have been married previously. 18 would not have been that young to marry.
So I think this could be possible.
I am sure William and Harriet are the children of Thomas as they were on the 1871 Census with him in the Grimsby area.
Have you found her in any of the 51,61 or 71 Census as Mary Jane Gossip or as a birth in the Civil Registration.
You need to establish a Mary Jane Gossip as born c1850
somewhere before you can rule this option out.
I am still looking for her on the earlier Census but no luck so far.
Lizzie.
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Hi Lizzie
I haven't been able to find her birth or her on the 1851, 1861 or the 1871 census as I haven't been able to find Thomas Kirman on the 1851, 1861, and 1871.
Thank you very much for all your time you are spending on this for me.
Regards
Gillian
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Hi Lizzie
Sorry to bother you but Thomas and Mary's first child was born abt 1868 which was William A, then it was Harriet in 1870 then more after these years. So therefore when William was born Mary would have only been about 18.
Regards
Gillian
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But if you look at the 1871 Census I sent you earlier Thomas's wife was not called Mary Jane it was Eliza.
I believe Thomas was married before. The 1881 Census gives William and Harriet as born in Lincs. The 1871 shows a William A and Harriet also born Lincs and the same dobs.
I am sending you the 1871 Census again to compare with your later ones.
Thomas Furman 1836 Scandlesby Head
Eliza Furman 1841 North Somercoates Wife
Emma E Furman 1865 North Thoresby Dau
Tom Furman 1867 North Thoresby Son
William A Furman 1868 Clee Son
Harriet Furman 1870 Grimsby Dau
Because of the names dates and location I think this is your Thomas Kirman. Forget the spelling I have looked at the original and it could be a K not an F.
The ages of William A and Harriet are correct and the location is close. The next child of Thomas was born abt.1875/6 in Hull plenty of time for his wife Eliza to have died and he remarry your Mary Jane.The two older children Emma & Tom could have died or been working by 1881.
I think it would be unusual for there to be 2 Thomas Kirmans born around the same date living in the same area with 2 children of the same name and dob.
You need to get copies of certificates and other documentation to confirm any of this. But I don't think you can discount it either. The similarities are too great.
eg. If you sent for the certificate of Harriet it would confirm her Mother. The marriage certificate would confirm the status of the bride and groom.
I have also found Thomas in 1861 he is unmarried living with his parents and listed as born 1836.
Let me know what you think I hope I haven't confused you.
Lizzie
PS Still no sign of Mary Jane Gossip on 61 or 71.
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Hi Lizzie
Just an update on the above. On the 1881 census for Grimsby RG11/3267/118/24 Henrietta G/daugher who was the first born of Thomas Kerman and Mary Jane was living with Edward Richardson and Eliza. They were married December Qtr 1855 9d 337. So after giving it some thought I wondered whether Mary Jane Gossip had the name Richardson. Low and behold on the 1861 Census at Southcoates RG9/3580/131/38 there was Mary Jane. So after giving it some more thought I wondered whether Eliza (wife) could be a Gossip. I am just presuming but I think this is how Mary Jane got her name Gossip, she took her mothers name after 1861. Also when you look at the 1861 census Mary Jane had a brother Robert who was 18 and Mary was 8.
So I think Eliza, had Robert and Mary out of wedlock, and thats how she probably got the name Gossip, or could this be their stepmother.
I am getting awfully confused, so I am hoping you might be able to understand it better than I do.
I have only been doing the family tree for a short time, what with the different spellings, ages etc.
Or after reading this yourself do you think I am barking up the wrong tree pardon the expression.
Thank you once again for your help, but I thought I would put you in the picture.
Regards
Gillian
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On the Yorkshire BMD I found this entry:
RICHARDSON Edward GOSSIP Eliza Sculcoates Register Offices Hull SR/6/11 it was the year of 1855. So I would think Mary Jane was born out of Wedlock and took Edwards name on the Census.
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Hi Lizzie
Thank you for your reply. I wondered that. But surely when they did get married Mary Jane would have taken the name Richardson. Or do you think she kept her name has
Mary Jane Gossip instead of changing it by deedpole, if there were such a thing.
I have got Mary Jane on the 1861 but still nothing for the 1851 or the 1871. If you have either of these census's would you send me the information please.
Thank you once again
Regards
Gillian
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I was wondering if you know anything about your Grandmothers sister Henrieta/Harrriett
One of the Kirman sisiter's had 2 or 4 children to a John Edward HESELTINE
they where
John Edward KIRMAN 1899 not sure on this one
but
Clarence Heseltine KIRMAN 1906
Gladys Mary KIRMAN 1902
Henrietta Kirman 1892
I an trying to find out if it was Henrietta/Harriet who was there mother
Thanks for any light you can shed on this
1901
403 Wellington Street
Ambrose T Kirman abt 1890 Hull, Yorkshire, England Son Clee Lincolnshire
Elsie Kirman abt 1883 Hull, Yorkshire, England Daughter Clee Lincolnshire
Euretta Kirman abt 1874 Hull, Yorkshire, England Daughter Clee Lincolnshire
Euretta H Kirman abt 1892 Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England Granddaughter 9 months
Eveline Kirman abt 1889 Hull, Yorkshire, England Daughter Clee Lincolnshire
John E Kirman abt 1899 Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England Grandson Clee Lincolnshire
Mary J Kirman abt 1847 Hull, Yorkshire, England Wife Clee Lincolnshire
Millicent Kirman abt 1896 Grimsby, Lincolnshire, England Daughter Clee Lincolnshire
Thomas Kirman abt 1837 Lincolnshire, England Head Clee Lincolnshire
Charles H Wrighton abt 1881 Kimbolton Son-in-law Clee Lincolnshire
Priscilla Wrighton abt 1880 Hull, Yorkshire, England Daughter-in-law
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Hi
I am afraid those names dont ring a bell. I do know the ones you listed below starting with Ambrose are all one family.
Thomas Kerman I believe was married before to an Eliza they had children starting with Annie E, Tom, William A, then Harriet. Thomas on the 1871 his last name is coming up as Furman at Scamblesby.
I found out that Mary Jane Gossip was probably born out of wedlock she had a brother who also I believe was born out of wedlock. There mother and father were Eliza Richardson and Edward Richardson, and Eliza's maiden name was Gossip.
On the 1861 census Mary Jane name is coming up as Richardson. So I was confused, as I could not find her on the 1861, under the name of gossip. Then when she married Thomas Kerman she took her mothers maiden name and not Richardson which I would have thought she would have had. I dont know in those days, when they were born out of wedlock whether later on they could have changed it by deedpole like you can today.
I dont know whether this is any help to you or whether it has confused you more.
I am quite a new lister myself.
I hope this hasn't got you scratching your head, like it did me. If I can be any more help please let me know.
Regards
Gillian
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Thank you if you are interested about the Kirman line from
Thomas 1839 born North Thoresby Lincs if you search the net for "KIRMAN & chris Barrett " she has a lot of info on the family
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Don't know if this will help but could this be Thomas's marrriage 1st marraige
Primitive Methodist Chapel Victoria Street 22/11/1863
KIRMAN Thomas 27 Bachelor Dock Labourer Church Street,Grimsby Father Albert Farm Labourer
BRADSHAW Eliza 22 Spinster Church Street,Grimsby father William Farmer
Wit: William HUFTON Victoria MOGG
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Hi
Thank you very much for your information I will look into it.
Was the information I sent you of any help or was it a bit confusing.
Regards
Gillian
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Yesd it helped a bit I have just had a reply from Chris Barrett she is in the UK at present but will be back in AUZ in October so she is going to forward details of the family I will sned them on to you
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i would be able to help you all if i could get used to this system and computer
mary jane kerman was my grandmother my mother was millecent the last child, who was christened richardson . its getting all the information to you
derek
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Hi
Thank you for replying on the above person. Am I correct in saying that Millicent was sister to Priscilla Kerman born 16 Oct 1879 Hull, Yorkshire. Because Priscilla was my grandmother. Priscilla married Charles Henry Wrighton 20 September 1899 Old Clee Church Grimsby.
Did yourself come from the Grimsby Lincolnshire area.
If we are connected in this way, it would be nice if we could share our findings on the Family Tree.
Regards
Gillian
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hi
yes your dates are correct though i have 1880 my mother and
grandmother were sisters. i knew all my aunts and uncles except henrietta harreitt
and uncle edwin we all had to stay at aunt elsies during the war. i did have a postcard from my mother to aunt pris your grandmother and mother would only be 12years old, at the time, she was asking if she recognised the the person thomas kerman. standing with others by a dead whale at cleethorpes beach. your grandparents i think was living at rochdale. yes i am still at good old grimsby. my wife and iwere saying which family settled in grimsby first, and that started it and iv'e been doing family history ever since. now in my old age i am green at this, is there anyway to make contact with you, or is this the only way as i have lots more info and pictures.by the way hello distant cousin derek.
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Hi Derek
It would be nice to swap information. Unfortunately my grandmothers sisters and brother died. But I have still got a cousin who was daughter to Miriam Alam Wrighton was daughter to Priscilla to Charles Henry Wrighton.
If you would like to contact me my e mail address if (*)
Hope to hear from you soon
Gillian
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Hi Derek
My grandmother Priscilla lived at Sculcoates on 1881 and 1891 census then the 1901 census she had moved to Grimsby, as she married my grandfather 1899. She died 6th Aug 1960 Grimsby. She didn't live in Rochdale at all.
Gillian
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Hello everyone
I found your chat on Google. My grandmother was Eveline Kirman, although I never knew her. I have shown my Dad what I have found out about his mother and her family. He says he can remember Granny Kirman living around the corner from them. This would presumably be Mary Jane Gossip/Richardson/ Morton/Kirman. I haven't actually found any evidence that she married Thomas Kirman. I wonder if you have got to the bottom of this?
Best wishes
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Thank you for the information, I wll look at it later. I received quite a bit of information through the post. The person I got the information from this person and his mothers name was called Millicent, who was my grandmothers sister.
I haven't found anything about Thomas and Mary Jane marrying neither has my friend.
Do you know any more information about brothers and sisters, of Priscilla who was my grandmother.
Regards
Gillian
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I have just been to visit my dad and I asked him about his aunts and uncles. He could not remember anything. Unfortunately his memory is not very good now.
W
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I have just been to visit my Dad and I asked him about his aunts and uncles. He could not remember anything. Unfortunately his memory is not very good now.
We asked him about his family some years ago and he said both his mother, Eveline, and her mother played the piano. They had one at home. He said that Granny Kirman used to sew until she was very old. He told us that he used to go over to Hull with his mother to visit his aunts and uncles. I can remember going to Hull on the paddle steamers in the days before the Humber Bridge was built.
How far back have you traced the Kirman family? I have only had time so far to look on the internet at Censuses and Births, Deaths and Marriage records.
Best wishes
Ian