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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Dnallov on Sunday 09 January 22 22:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi Guys
I'm here thanks to this adventure >
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857372.new#new
Long story short; my Grandmother (Peggy Richards 1914) was adopted and with very little information I'm in search of her real parents
I have no idea where Peggy was actually born, but she only knew life in London (mainly Hanwell) and I think it's likely she was born in the UK. Her adopted parents were Frank Richards (1890) & Florance Hale (1887)
Using Ancestry DNA I have found a likely bloodline for Peggy's side being the Clare Family. Specifically, I have 8 trees linking back to a "Francis Clare (1810)" and have pinpointed that Henry Clare (1840) & Charlotte Seabrook (1842) as likely Grandparents or Great Grandparents to Peggy (I pinpointed this as having a separate DNA match to Seabrook)
Henry & Charlotte emigrated to New Zealand somewhere between 1865 & 1866. They had one daughter in the UK born in 1865, Charlotte Clare, but fair to say that she went to New Zealand. There are a possible 5 Children in total as listed below
Charlotte Clare (1865) Born Shoreditch, London, EnglandGeorge Clare O.B.E. (1868) Born New ZealandHarriet Sarah Clare (1870) Born New ZealandJames Clare (1872) Born New ZealandClara Clare (1874) Born New Zealand
However, these are garnered from otehr trees and I've already found a lot of errors so may not be correct. Clara Clare has a DNA link and Charlotte Clare is confirmed by the records in the UK so both certain
And then I hit a wall. I can't seem to find any records on Ancestry and seme to be a real lack of anything with details
Any pointers or help would be much appreciated :)
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continuing on from the other thread
re the names of children born in NZ and the children alive at time of Charlotte's death in 1912
Males
48 - so born 1864 - either age is wrong or is son born before NZ
45 - born 1867 - George who was born 1868 (I haven't drilled down for exact dates of any of these)
42 - born 1870 - James - who whereabouts are unknown when they are sorting out Charlotte's estate.
Females
49 - born 1863 before coming to NZ
35 - born 1877 either Ellen Emma who was born 1876
or Francis who was born 1878
31 - born 1881 Caroline Esther born 1881. Edith Alice born 1882 see reply #4
27 - born 1885 Florence. born 1886
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48 - so born 1864 - either age is wrong or is son born before NZ
Possibly this one:
CLARE, HENRY WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SEABROOK
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in WEST HAM UNION Volume 04A Page 42
There is a possible NZ marriage in 1894.
Debra :)
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From memorial notices can see names of some sons in law
so
Florence married Linton Charles PIMM 1908
Clara married Thomas Richard JAMES 1897 but died in 1906
Charlotte married James Mellows Mc/MacDONALD 1896
Edith Alice married Charles Herbert DOBSON 1902. They divorced in 1913
Redboxed. !
adding anyway
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Edith Alice married Charles Herbert DOBSON 1902. They divorced in 1913
so it's Edith who is alive in 1912, NOT Caroline Esther (who died age 9 months in 1882)
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OP I think it is really necessary to find a DoB, if you can, for Peggy or confirm the one below.
There is a poster on the original thread who has found a birth in the Isle of Wight. Nov 1914. You have mentioned C1915 on that same thread. Does your Dad remember the day and month she celebrated her birthday?
Do you have these details?
It would be useful to find out details of the adoptive parents birth/Death. I have found a Middlesex marriage mid 1913.
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OP I think it is really necessary to find a DoB, if you can, for Peggy or confirm the one below.
There is a poster on the original thread who has found a birth in the Isle of Wight. Nov 1914. You have mentioned C1915 on that same thread. Does your Dad remember the day and month she celebrated her birthday?
Do you have these details?
It would be useful to find out details of the adoptive parents birth/Death. I have found a Middlesex marriage mid 1913.
Annoyingly a lot of my posts in that thread is getting stuck "under moderation"; hopefully this one will get through!
So the 1921 Census has been read incorrectly; Peggy is actually listed as being born in Islington (not IOW).
The 1939 register shows Peggys DOB as 20 Nov 1914.
This person posting has happened across my tree which is here for those with Ancestory access
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/9383499/family/familyview?cfpid=6871813699&fpid=6871813699&usePUBJs=true
And for reference here is the Clare Family tree I have composed, but now needs updating with teh information posted here!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/171705968/family/familyview?cfpid=282230045129
Florance Hale was Born in 1887/ Passed in 1950
Frank Richards was Born in 1890/ Passed in 1932
Thanks guys - this has already been fantastic!
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48 - so born 1864 - either age is wrong or is son born before NZ
Possibly this one:
CLARE, HENRY WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SEABROOK
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in WEST HAM UNION Volume 04A Page 42
There is a possible NZ marriage in 1894.
Debra :)
Can I ask where you got that info - I can't seem to replicate it. I can find the record in the Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915, but no mothers maiden name?
However, I have found a Henry William Clare on somebody else's tree; same guy (born 1866 in West Ham) and married & died in NZ so looks likely to be their missing first son.
Rather interestingly he was in the UK during the war. He would have been 48
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Also his son, Arther William also served. His service record shows his dad as being a Henry William Clare, a UK citizen who was a NZ resident for 30 years which would line up about right
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Don't want to get too excited, but I have a DNA link to a "Fuller" with numerous records in NZ
If I can link Lillian Margaret Fuller to the above, THEN I'm going to get excited!
Lillian middle name Margaret? Margaret > Peggy? Would it be too much of a push to think Arther got his short term love in the UK to name their daughter after his mum? Think I may be clutching at staws on that one
Can't thank you all enough for all the help guys. Yesterday I was hitting a brick wall, today I may have (possibly) found one half of the story
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This marriage?
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18941213.2.2.1?phrase=2&query=lillian+margaret+fuller&snippet=true
Minniehaha.
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I don’t think Arthur William went soon enough
His full record is here
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE24342399
I make a date of 17 Sept 1917 as his start date.
Unless I am reading it incorrectly. Which is always possible
;D
Added. And he didn’t start his foreign service until 31 December 1917
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I don’t think Arthur William went soon enough
His full record is here
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE24342399
I make a date of 17 Sept 1917 as his start date.
Unless I am reading it incorrectly. Which is always possible
;D
Added. And he didn’t start his foreign service until 31 December 1917
Ah - OK. Jumped the gun again it seems. Add it to the unlikely pile
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In the earlier thread that we have asked to be merged I made the point that WW1 was not declared until July1914.
A child born 20/11/1914 would have had a conception before July 1914.
Some NZ families from the UK did send their children 'home' for further education or help with a career. My oldest Aunt was sent to Barts and two uncles went to Sandhurst.
PS I also asked if the DNA could have come from a Seabrook/Clare mother. If so perhaps a daughter went to the UK
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In the earlier thread that we have asked to be merged I made the point that WW1 was not declared until July1914.
A child born 20/11/1914 would have had a conception before July 1914.
Some NZ families from the UK did send their children 'home' for further education or help with a career. My oldest Aunt was sent to Barts and two uncles went to Sandhurst.
PS I also asked if the DNA could have come from a Seabrook/Clare mother. If so perhaps a daughter went to the UK
Good point well made, and sorry for missing that. Added to my notes
Could indeed be a daughter; assumed it was a son with the WWI angle but will broaden my search now we know that WW1 is unlickly to be a factor
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Soooo, how is the best way forward? Do we look at each child and do a BDM and look at shipping lists to the UK?
Do we follow up the Seabrook name in the UK?
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If the birth is in Islington, rather than the isle of Wight, there is an old reference to a Dunedin wedding in 1867 of a daughter of a Francis Henry Clare of Islington.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT18671019.2.10?end_date=31-12-1870&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=henry+clare&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1839
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Don't want to get too excited, but I have a DNA link to a "Fuller" with numerous records in NZ
If I can link Lillian Margaret Fuller to the above, THEN I'm going to get excited!
...
Lillian Margaret Fuller Clare died aged 59 in 1925
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS19250205.2.73.2?end_date=31-12-1930&items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=henry+william++clare&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1900
They have these children:
1897/9578 Clare Arthur William Lillian Margaret Henry William
1899/12043 Clare Lawrence Erle Lillian Margaret Henry William
1903/3123 Clare Viola Joan Lillian Margaret Henry William
1914/29623 Clare Moana Lillian Lillian Margaret Henry William
His death:
1936/18167 Clare Henry William 69Y
You have copied the roll entry for 140407 Henry William Clare, London Regt Machine Gun Corps. This looks to be a UK regiment. Not sure of the dates of the roll (there is a printed stamped date that looks to be in 1920, and why HW Clare was in the UK.
Just drawing attention to the 1914 birth registration* of the last child. There is a way of finding out when the birth was registered. If we can find H W Clare's service records we can see where he might have been at the time of conception.
According to the death registration she was born on 30/8/1896 so it could have been a late registration. She sounds an interesting person being a teacher at a school for the deaf, singer and piano and organ accompanist.
death
1973/36382 Clare Moana Lillian 30 August 1896
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1865/14206 Fuller Lilian Margaret Marian George Hodge Wilder
1867/22389 Fuller Rose Emma Frances Marian Margaret George Hodge Wilder
1873/33087 Fuller James Edwin Marian Margaret George Hodge Wilder
1877/8452 Fuller Lizzie Marian Margaret George Hodge Wilder
1880/10815 Fuller Arthur Charles Marian Margaret George Hodge Wilder
1883/8122 Fuller William Bennett Marian Margaret George Hodge Wilder
So that family well and truly here early.
Back to the Clares. They have to be the family with the least entries on Paperspast I have ever encountered!
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Soooo, how is the best way forward? Do we look at each child and do a BDM and look at shipping lists to the UK?
Do we follow up the Seabrook name in the UK?
So to confirm, the link must start at "Henry Clare" & "Charlotte Elizabeth Seabrook" due to the DNA lines I have... I think. I will do a quick diagram to explain later today; I have many links through Clare and one via Seabrook - I would like to see more with Seabrook to be sure that isn't coincidental but is all I have at this time
"Henry Clare" & "Charlotte Elizabeth Seabrook" would have both have been in their 70s when Peggy was born so very unlikely to be her parents. More likely to be one of their Children or Grand Children.
So the plan is now to better map out the next generation after "Henry Clare" & "Charlotte Elizabeth Seabrook". I have zero information about James Mellows McDonald (married to Charlotte Clare) or William Stephenson (married to Harriet Sarah Clare) - I have both McDonald & Stephenson surnames in my DNA results, but nothing in New Zealand so need to work back a couple of generations to see if there is an actual link.
My problem is also organising all this!
Will return with an update in due course :)
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So the plan is now to better map out the next generation after "Henry Clare" & "Charlotte Elizabeth Seabrook". I have zero information about James Mellows McDonald (married to Charlotte Clare) or William Stephenson (married to Harriet Sarah Clare) - ....
Hello
Charlotte CLARE married James Mellows McDONALD in 1896.
There are no registered births appearing for the couple on the NZ Birth Index.
There are no NZ births registered for Charlotte CLARE prior to her marriage.
~ Lu
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... I have zero information about James Mellows McDonald (married to Charlotte Clare) or William Stephenson (married to Harriet Sarah Clare) -
Hi
Not sure how you have arrived at the William STEPHENSON - Harriet Sarah CLARE marriage ???
There was a New Zealand marriage for a William STEPHENSON to a Harriet CLARE (not Harriet Sarah) in 1892. No issue to that marriage was registered.
Further, there is this memorial notice in 1893 for Harriet Sarah STEPHENSON
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18930110.2.2.2
... inserted by her brother and sister ?? It also has no date of death (I'll go in search of that).
~ Lu
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... I have zero information about James Mellows McDonald (married to Charlotte Clare) or William Stephenson (married to Harriet Sarah Clare) -
Hi
Not sure how you have arrived at the William STEPHENSON - Harriet Sarah CLARE marriage ???
There was a New Zealand marriage for a William STEPHENSON to a Harriet CLARE (not Harriet Sarah) in 1892. No issue to that marriage was registered.
Further, there is this memorial notice in 1893 for Harriet Sarah STEPHENSON
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18930110.2.2.2
... inserted by her brother and sister ?? It also has no date of death (I'll go in search of that).
~ Lu
That was from somebody else's tree - It may indeed be incorrect as I have found a number of issues in the same tree.
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Hi
Here is the death registration as per the NZ online death index.
1893 / 1574 - STEPHENSON - Harriett (sic) - 23 years - [bc 1870 ]
Will see if I can locate other info.
~ Lu
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Marriage notice
Stephenson/Clare
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18920516.2.12.2?end_date=31-12-1893&items_per_page=10&query=Stephenson+clare&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1890
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Hi
Yes, correct Harriet (nee CLARE). Her funeral notice >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18930104.2.3.1
[Notice didn't come up under "CLARE" ... as the letter "E" looked more like an "a" ;D ]
~ Lu
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Death
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18930124.2.11.3?end_date=31-12-1893&items_per_page=10&page=4&query=Stephenson+clare&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1890
Isn’t Henry of the Telegraph department Henry junior?
Added, or did they both work there?
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So to confirm, the link must start at "Henry Clare" & "Charlotte Elizabeth Seabrook" due to the DNA lines I have... I think. I will do a quick diagram to explain later today; I have many links through Clare and one via Seabrook - I would like to see more with Seabrook to be sure that isn't coincidental but is all I have at this time
"Henry Clare" & "Charlotte Elizabeth Seabrook" would have both have been in their 70s when Peggy was born so very unlikely to be her parents. More likely to be one of their Children or Grand Children.
So the plan is now to better map out the next generation after "Henry Clare" & "Charlotte Elizabeth Seabrook". I have zero information about James Mellows McDonald (married to Charlotte Clare) or William Stephenson (married to Harriet Sarah Clare) - I have both McDonald & Stephenson surnames in my DNA results, but nothing in New Zealand so need to work back a couple of generations to see if there is an actual link.
I have done a little work on this going forward from the NZ resident Clare/Seabrook couple.
So you do not need to go to trees I worked from the death certificate of Charlotte Elizabeth (from the probate) and the list of children born from the NZ BDM supplied by Mckha.
From the death certificate
children of the Clare/Seabrook NZ couple alive in 1912
female 49
male 48
male 45 George
female 42
female 35
female 31 Edith Alice marr Charles Herbert DOBSON 1902
female 27 Florence marr Linton Charles PIMM 1908
It could be one of these (above) or their children who could be the parent of Peggy
So it will be the children of the ones who died before 1912 who may have been a parent of Margaret/Peggy in 1914.
Caroline Esther died young.
I suggest we try to find the names for the ones alive in 1912.
Their marriages and children
Then the marriages and g/children and deaths of the children who died pre 1912.
Re the Seabrook side. Do you have the parents of Charlotte Elizabeth Seabrook Clare, from a copy of her marriage certificate please.
NZ being a small place the Seabrook name is around in Auckland from my memory. They may have been spurred on to emigrate by good reports from other Seabrook family or connections. But searching for Seabrook siblings for Charlotte in England will be a good move.
I have these marriages to be checked
1897 Clara to Thomas Richard James
1890 George Clare to Eliza McBratney
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Clara died in 1906 and Daughter Dorothy in 1902
The others are too young.
1899/15763 James Muriel Elizabeth Clara Thomas
1901/19107 James Dorothy Irene Clara Thomas Richard
1900/13677 James Cyril Henry Baden Clara Thomas Richard
1904/22389 James Llewellyn Clara Thomas Richard
1903/20244 James Pearl Alexander Clara Thomas Richard
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George’s children
1898/12049 Clare George Stanley Gordon Eliza George
1891/3100 Clare Lyla Winifred Eliza Eliza George
1905/6776 Clare Lionel Louis Philip Eliza George
Lyla’s marriages
1923/3203 Lyla Winifred Eliza Clare Ralph Rennett
1913/5019 Lyla Winifred Eliza Clare Ernest Vernon Arbuckle
So descendants of George can I think be ruled out.
Charlotte had none.
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Pretty sure there was a Clare family in Waituna West (near Fielding) and some buried at Waituna West Cemetery which you'll find on Findagrave
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The links from reply #30......
https://www.mdc.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemetery-records-search
https://billiongraves.com/cemetery/Waituna-West-Cemetery/295945
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2331244/memorial-search?firstname=&middlename=&lastname=clare&cemeteryName=Waituna+West+Cemetery&birthyear=&birthyearfilter=&deathyear=&deathyearfilter=&memorialid=&mcid=&linkedToName=&datefilter=&orderby=r&plot
Minniehaha.
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You're a gem, thank you.
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Dnallov,
It occurs to me that there IS a possible paper route to locate Peggy Richard’s’ biological mother.
1) You note that in Census 1921, Peggy’s birthplace is given as Isleworth (Middx).
2) What was the street address of Frank & Florence in the census?
3) From FreeBmd, the Hale/Richards marriage was at Uxbridge (Middx) in Q3, 1913.
4) Note both known locations in Middlesex; is street address also in Middlesex?
One hundred years ago, childbirth outside of marriage carried a lot of stigma, and many unmarried women would give up their baby for adoption.
5) If we assume that the birthdate of 20-Nov-14 is true and that the mother named her daughter Margaret, we can enter search parameters into FreeBmd to locate possible birth mothers. This is possible because an illegitimate child will be registered with the same surname as the mother.
A search of FreeBmd for,
sex: female
start date: Q1, 1913
end date : Q4, 1915
County: Middlesex
First name: Margaret
finds about 2230 matches.
Inspection to find the same surname for mother and child gives only a few hits.
Q1, 1913: Edginton; Mason
Q2, 1913: Dennis; Elworthy; Holland; Lightfoot*; Murphy; Storey
Q3, 1913: Haines; Hall(s); Julian; McCabe; Reade; Singleton*;
Q4, 1913: Hurcomb; Lockwood; Skates; Startin
Q1, 1914: Brock; Butcher*; Curtis*; Dowling; Hager; Welfare; Wolstenholme
Q2, 1914: Bullock; Dean; Erith; Glaysher; Meadowcroft; Sawyer; Smith
Q3, 1914: Black*; Davies*; Duncan; O'Connell; Soer; Vale
Q4, 1914: Black*; Chapman; Curley; Goldsworthy; Miller; Peacock; Penn; Savage; Smith; Winton
Q1, 1915: Brown; Connolly; Edwards; Godbeer; Lloyd; Lutt*; McCarthy; Millington; Parry; Wallis
Q2, 1915: Bedford; Coe; Harragan; Hawley; Herd; Lockstone; Mayers; Morrell; Scase; Walker
Q3, 1915: Banks; Brophy; Dodd; Fagan; Faithfull; Fitzgibbons; Knowles; Milting
Q4, 1915: Barnes; Botten; Dollery*; Rees; Spurgeon
where Name* = registered in Brentford, but cannot for the life of me remember why I thought that Brentford is important!!! Ah yes, close to Isleworth where they are living in 1921.
Peggy Richards' birthday is given as 20-Nov-14, which is Q4, 1914; illegitimate births for Q4, 1914 are given below,
Q4, 1914: Black*; Chapman; Curley; Goldsworthy; Miller; Peacock; Penn; Savage; Smith; Winton.
Now only 10 lines to check, so should keep you off the streets for a while.
Good Luck,
JMB
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Hi there... so I came across this thread while trying to solve a mystery of my own in my family tree and strangely I can fill in some of the gaps here particularly concerning Charlotte Clare and James Mellows McDonald. The following is direct quote from a journal on family history my grandmother wrote:
"In 1929 I was born - my father registered my birth completely forgetting the names both my parents had picked out and named me Gertrude Ruth McNeil the same as my mother.
My mother's mother's maiden name was Clare (Her Christian name was Charlotte) She came to N. Z. when she was 3 1/2 yrs old. They (her parents + siblings landed in Lyttleton & settled in Christchurch where her father worked for the council.
A story granny told us of her girlhood - her father was very strict but every-so-often he had to work the night cart shift. When this happened her mother let granny & her sisters go to a dance without him knowing about it.
On the way home they saw the night cart - all the men were collecting the night-soil cans. So the girls shut the lids and hid behind a hedge.
Their father came out and emptied the can not noticing the lid was shut, jamming his fingers. He swore and put his fingers in his mouth & then started spitting.
The girls crept home thoroughly pleased with themselves.
Granny married a Scotsman who had jumped ship in Lyttleton & when it became obvious that granny wasn't going to have children they adopted my mother. But from some things Granny said I suspect she was really one of the family. (these things were well hidden in 1900) They remove to the McKenzie Country & after a few years they came to Hawkes Bay."
The story above is about Charlotte Clare her parents Charlotte Elizabeth Clare (nee. Seabrook) and Henry Clare (with the night cart), her husband James Mellows McDonald and their daughter, my great grandmother (who was adopted) Gertrude Ruth McNeil (nee. McDonald - later married a Beeson). I was able to confirm the connection from my great grandmother to Charlotte Clare and James Mellows McDonald from NZ electoral rolls that clearly show both James and Charlotte living in the same address in Hawkes Bay that Gertrude Ruth Beeson lived in once they had both passed. All my family come from Hawke's Bay in New Zealand. The mystery for me was who my great grandmothers real parents were... I haven't done any kinda of DNA research and am not sure which would be best... I am open to suggestions. Also was so happy to find this thread which has already helped me patch a few gaps in my own family tree research and start to work out some of the missing pieces. The date I have for my great grandmother's birthday is January 27 1899 (not sure how I came to that, and may be off someone else's flawed tree, though I do know she was born very close to the turn of the century). I haven't ever been able to find anything else except that her parents were Charlotte Clare and James Mellows McDonald who couldn't have kids of their own and didn't raise any other children. Seems unusual and perhaps not a coincidence that there would be two adoption mysterys in the same family around the same people... I know I'm a little late to this, and very new to this website, but eagerly await any new revelations that may come with this info. Hope this can help the OP and also gives a little insight in to another time. Thanks guys. Hope to hear back soon.
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The mystery for me was who my great grandmothers real parents were...
The date I have for my great grandmother's birthday is January 27 1899 (not sure how I came to that, and may be off someone else's flawed tree, though I do know she was born very close to the turn of the century).
Hello ... and welcome to RootsChat. :)
Working off the NZ Death Index information, for Gertrude Ruth BEESON died 1983 > where her date of birth is given as "30 January 1899", I've found her probable birth mother.
NZ Birth Index :
1899 / 19376 - JONAS - Gertrude Ruth
Mother : Clara JONAS Father : NR (= Name not recorded)
The date of birth for this child was .... 30 January 1899 .
Her birth was registered at Christchurch.
[Note : Because that entry still exists on the NZ Birth Index, suggests that a formal adoption was never made. ]
~ Lu
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re: Gertrude Ruth JONAS [McDONALD] : * * * see explanation below * * *
This may be the birth mother's own birth in NZ ??
1885 / 8402 - JONAS - Clara
Parents: Emma and Moss JONAS
This birth was registered at Mt. Cook.
Date of Birth is 25 February 1885
[Can only find two girls named as "Clara JONAS" - another born c. 1872 has a second christian name
... will check out both of them further. ]
~ Lu
Added : Mt. Cook is MacKenzie country ... did you say Charlotte and James once resided in the MacKenzie ?
* * * Monday 12.28 am NZ Time -- I have just found some new information for both Clara JONAS (b. 1885) and Clara Johanna JONAS > who also used the surname RYDER > (born NZ 1872).
Having read a report on the Jewish wedding 1911, in Canada of Clara JONAS (b. 1885), I began to have doubts she was the mother of Gertrude Ruth. On checking NZ BDM once more I noticed a further 3 births - 1903 / 1904 / 1906, which had "Clara - mother and NR for father". Then there are another 4 births which have mother "Clara Johanna / Clara Josephine - Father NR" : There are trees at ancestry.com for both of the Claras ... and Gertrude Ruth (b. 1899) is claimed to be the daughter of Clara Johanna JONAS (RYDER) ? Conversely, on another site, I saw information which claimed Gertrude Ruth and a child Florence to be daughters of Clara (b. 1885). All 8 of these births were registered at Christchurch where Clara Johanna resided. I can also see that an infant > Florence JONAS aged 5 months died on 8 August 1903 and is buried at Christchurch. It appears then that Clara Johanna JONAS used only the name "Clara" when registering the first 3 or 4 of her children ... hence the confusion which resulted in me making the wrong call. ::) But the only way to know for sure who Gertrude's mother is, is to purchase a copy of her birth record (and it is the "printout" version you'll need - it has the maximum amount of information available). So apologies for this "stuff up" - it happens sometimes when there is so much material to have to read through. ~ Lu * * *
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The Clara JONAS born 1885 is named in the will of her father, Moss JONAS who died at Timaru in 1907. Link to Probate file >
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE64824663
Clara JONAS, spinster, was also residing at Timaru in 1907.
~ Lu
Added information - JONAS family : Ideally I'm searching for what became of Clara (no marriage found in NZ under that name / no apparent death in NZ ... but still much to look at. )
Her mother Emma and sister Jane went to live in Dunedin : Emma died there in 1919 (her sister married in same year ). Link to death notice for Emma (another notice confirms she was the widow of Moss JONAS.) https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ODT19190121.2.14
~ Lu
* * * * * See explanation at Reply 36
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For Koroforo - JONAS Family : * * * Please now see info at Reply 36 * * *
Aah ... have struck "gold", finally. ;D
Information in the following link that "Miss Clara JONAS has married Mr T. GOLDSTEIN of Vancouver" :
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/THD19111202.2.46.3.1
And a report of the intention of Emma JONAS and her (unnamed) daughter to relocate to Dunedin.
[The daughter is Jane > now known as Jeanie or Jeannie JONAS - had found her earlier on the electoral roll for Dunedin. ] Just incidentally, Moss JONAS was at one time (1880's), the Mayor of Timaru. Further info at PapersPast website >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers
~ Lu
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JONAS family : * * * see explanation at Reply 36
Obituaries for Moss JONAS >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/THD19071106.2.37
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19071106.2.39.2
You'll see in one of these that he spent time in Vancouver ... and America.
~ Lu
Added : I feel quietly confident that Clara belongs to the Moss and Emma JONAS family (especially now having read about the Vancouver connection). I looked for the other girl who was named Clara Johanna JONAS - born 1872 - place unknown - was the daughter of Anna and John JONAS. Several reports in Westport papers that she was a neglected child 1878-1879 - eventually returned to her father's care. She died as Clara Johanna JONAS at Christchurch in 1930 aged 65 years.
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Such a pleasure to watch this unfold today Lucy2
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If the dates are correct and they will be as our Lucy2 researcher has been researching,
the 'girl'/teenager Clara Jonas was very young.....she was about 14-15 years when her child was born.
And I would add my voice to that of mckha489! Excellent.
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Looking at the Jonas-Goldstein link there is this death on FS of Aileen Goldstein Eaton in Los Angeles in 1987. She was born in 1909.
There is this link to the Findagrave site that has more information about her family and her life. Aileen Eaton is a very interesting person. She would be a half sibling to the child born in 1899
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/78725286/aileen-eaton
Then there is this reference to a 1902 birth in Los Angeles of a Cyril Moss (Jonas?) on a death in LA on 5/12/1987
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VPZ7-X2R
And a puzzling link in 1921 of a Marriage Jonas- Goldstein in San Francisco (no first names given)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QL4T-R33T
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Thank you mckha and shanreagh :)
.... just lucky I think I was, to get "one" which unfolded so easily.
[That's two this week that have blown me away - the LEAMAN / McPherson one .... with the Letters of Adminstration file - 55 pages of it - with BD & M certs (for Africa - almost). Truly a family historian's dream package. I've never encountered anything quite like that before. ;D ]
~ Lu
* * * Well, eating my HAT now !! Seems I've stuffed up and picked the wrong Clara : ::) ::) (Explained at Reply 36 ) :-[ ::)
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Hello Koroforo
At the familysearch.org website ... there appears to be a number of records for Clara JONAS in Canada.
Firstly ... the Marriage record for Clara JONAS (of Timaru, New Zealand) to Isaac GOLDSTEIN - 30 November 1911 - Vancouver, British Colombia, Canada : You can download this.
* There is possibly a citizenship record ? Clara JONAS or GOLDSTEIN
* Several other records in name of same Clara JONAS - one for a previous trip to Canada (looks like) ?
* And the possibility that there's another researcher of Clara JONAS ??
Haven't examined them all in detail, so will leave you to discover more. :)
In case you're not familiar with familysearch site, I found it easiest to select from menu (top of screen) "Records" which should return a search box ... and then into this type name (2 boxes) -- Place : Vancouver, British Colombia, Canada - and add 1885 (her birth year) in last box.
~ Lu
Added : I went back over the above information - and a report on her traditional Jewish wedding had me thinking this Clara JONAS (b, 1885) is the wrong one. I'll leave all the notes on here.
* * * please refer to explanation at Reply 36 * * *
~ Lu
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Lucy2 Wow! I must commend you on some VERY compelling finds, that with every new piece of information considered; have become even more compelling. I must admit I was so excited when I saw your first messages that I have started a deep dive on the Moss Jonas / Clara Goldstein (née. Jonas) links and have found a wealth of information on them including this amazingly set out Family Card - Person sheet someone has made of Moss Jonas and the Goldstein (Vancuver and LA) connections:
https://kimsimmonds.net/ps04/ps04_378.html (https://kimsimmonds.net/ps04/ps04_378.html)
I would like to do DNA tests (I use Ancestry App, but unsure if I should do their DNA test) potentially with someone of the generation above so we can cross reference genetic links and 100% confirm the Gertrude Ruth McDonald-Jonas-Goldstein links but WOW.... I can't even describe my excitement by these amazing finds. THANK YOU! I will definitely check out familysearch as well. :o
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for Koroforo
Unfortunately it appears that you have not seen the * * * red alert messages added to the posts I made regarding the Moss JONAS family. ???
I am not able to erase those postings, so the next best thing was to add the alerts directing back to
Reply # 36 (- the alerts were in place well ahead of your reply).
At # 36, I have given an outline of why I eventually came to the conclusion that this particular Moss JONAS family, is now unlikely to relate to Gertrude Ruth JONAS.
The best next move, I suggest, would be for you to purchase a "printout" * copy of the birth record
> 1899 / 19376 - JONAS - Gertrude Ruth - Mother: Clara Father: N/R
[ * A "printout" (rather than certificate) is our recommendation - it contains the maximum amount of information available. ]
It's important to know the age of the mother (in 1899) as well as her place of birth, so that she (and her wider family) can be identified correctly.
I do have quite a lot of information for the other (NZ) Clara JONAS, so happy to pass that on to you, should she prove to be the one.
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu.
Of course my posts subsequent to finding the Canada marriage should have the same warning.
I also raised the idea that the age of the NZ Clara found vis a vis the later entries from Lu showed a very young Clara (14-15 years giving birth). A person born 1872, if that turns out to be correct, is much more of a likely age (though nothing is impossible)
If the Jonas/Ryder connection turns out to be correct then I am wondering if there are connections to Northern HB where both names were known, (at least to my late mother)
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Ah well, the mystery continues! Thank you for all the searching. And perhaps the birth Certificate will yeild something. Though as I said in my first post my grandmother was sure it was an adoption from within the family so perhaps even the birth certificate name could be a coincidence, but it's definitely worth looking into further. Thanks again