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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: Dnallov on Sunday 09 January 22 17:47 GMT (UK)
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Hi Guys - long time family researcher, but new member; go easy on me :)
I'm looking for some help and pointers in my journey to find my Grandmother real family. She was Peggy Richards. I hope my quick summary of my journey doesn't bore you! The questions are at the bottom :)
My Grandmother on my Fathers side was reputedly adopted. She would have been born c1915, and passed in 1964 with few stories passed on, and unfortunately was an only child so no family (and no extended family from the adopted side - certainly none now with stories to tell). So the only real source of this information is from my dad (now 80) who claimed it as fact, but the memory is hazy about how he knew this (he seems to think she had adoption papers, but I think this might be unlikely)
I always believed this claim to be true because from composing her family tree I saw that Peggy's adopted Parents (Frank Richards & Florance Hale) only had Peggy and no other children. All other family members around this time were knocking them out weekly, so I wondered if Frank & Florance couldn't have children so adopted one. I could also find no birth record for my Peggy, so was certain that she was adopted.
Anyhoo - Fast forward to when Ancestry DNA started to become a thing. Both I and my Dad carried it out, and it became apparent that there are zero connections with other Richards, Hales (or any branch) so not only was Peggy most certainly adopted, she was adopted completely outside of the family
After finding out for certain that Peggy was adopted, I've been keen to find out (if possible) that line of the family. That's not to say I have lost interest in her adopted side as I still see that as part of my family story of course
So have looked for any clues in any records, and found none so far. However, DNA gave me my first "Eureka" moment a couple of years back. I mapped out my and my dad DNA relations and isolated all those linked to either my own mum's side or my dad's personal side. I then went through those with no apparent connection to my other lines (but with a strong DNA connection) and grouped those who had links with others (shared matches) to see if I could find family. And I got a hit on one of these groups; this group had 12 trees in total, with 8 trees linking back to a "Francis Clare (1810)".
My next task took a while - I basically mapped out the entire Clare family from Francis Clare onwards. As I added spouses I searched the DNA database to see if there were any hits, and eventually, I got one. Henry Clare (1840) was married to a Charlotte Seabrook (1842) and I had somebody with a DNA match that related to Charlotte Seabrook
So I feel like I'm getting close, but then I hit a brick wall. Henry & Charlotte emigrated to New Zealand somewhere between 1865 & 1866. they had one daughter in the UK born in 1865, Charlotte Clare, but fair to say that she went to New Zealand. I think there are 5 Children in total
The problem is I'm finding it really hard to find anything records in New Zealand to help try and trace the family to find the next link. Peggy could be the daughter of one of the 5 Children, but think it more likely it is one more generation, and simply can't map that out
So questions;
1. What route(s) can I go through to better map the New Zealand side of the Clare Family
2. What else can I look into that can possibly help find information on my Grand Mothers blood family. My dad suggested there were adoption certificates, but would this have been true in 1915?
3. Is there something I'm missing in the Ancestry DNA results I can use to better navigate the results. I'm finding it really chunky, and annoying that I can't better search it
4. Any Help at all really!
Thanks Guys
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According to free index for 1921 census she was born Isle of Wight and I note from online trees that she was born 20/11/1914.
Obviously, the surname she was born under is unknown, and probably christian name too ('Peggy' may have been given to her when they 'adopted' her).
But with birthplace and birthdate known perhaps a check at IOW register office would reveal how many girls born on that date which would narrow things down a little.
Annette
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Would you know what age she was when adopted?
Official adoptions began in 1926 I believe so any arrangements prior to that would have been informal adoptions either within or outside the family.
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According to free index for 1921 census she was born Isle of Wight and I note from online trees that she was born 20/11/1914.
Obviously, the surname she was born under is unknown, and probably christian name too ('Peggy' may have been given to her when they 'adopted' her).
But with birthplace and birthdate known perhaps a check at IOW register office would reveal how many girls born on that date which would narrow things down a little.
Annette
Thanks, Annette - I looked at the 1921 Census when it was released and was really excited to see IOW as the birthplace as that would really narrow down the search. Unfortunately, it's an error and actually Isleworth!
Still, a possible clue but nothing I have found so far
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Would you know what age she was when adopted?
Official adoptions began in 1926 I believe so any arrangements prior to that would have been informal adoptions either within or outside the family.
No, but as noted above she lived was shown as Peggy Richards with her adopted parents in the 1921 Census. Highly likely it was informal.
When I started this I thought it was likely that the adoption was inside the family, but DNA has seen that as very unlikely as I have zero matches with anyone on that side of the family
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In your searches, keep in mind that Peggy is sometimes/often a nick name for Margaret, though of course her birth may have been registered under a completely different forename.
I would suggest asking on the New Zealand board for help with the Clare family who emigrated to NZ. Provide a link to this thread for background info.
Best of luck with the search. :)
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In your searches, keep in mind that Peggy is sometimes/often a nick name for Margaret, though of course her birth may have been registered under a completely different forename.
I would suggest asking on the New Zealand board for help with the Clare family who emigrated to NZ. Provide a link to this thread for background info.
Best of luck with the search. :)
Peggy, Margret & Peg are always in my search patterns. It's a strange first name for the era and has zero relevance to any other family members. I like to think it was given by the birth parents and kept by the Richards, but could be wrong.
Thanks for the tip - will do add a New Zealand post now :)
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NZ births
Registration Number Family Name Given Name(s) Mother's Given
Name(s) Father's Given
Name(s) Still Birth
1868/29043 Clare George Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1870/31757 Clare Harriet Sarah Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1872/714 Clare James Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1874/29437 Clare Clara Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1876/3405 Clare Ellen Emma Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1878/14378 Clare Francis Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1879/6960 Clare Eliza Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1881/3983 Clare Caroline Esther Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1882/3804 Clare Edith Alice Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1884/20457 Clare Charles Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
1886/18762 Clare Florence Charlotte Elizabeth Henry
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search?Path=%2FbirthSelect.m%3Fsort%3Dnatno#matches
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I am thinking 1915.
If the connection is real, then it is likely to be one of the boys in UK WW1
WW1 files are on archway.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/Home.do
Newspapers
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/
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Henry Clare’s will proved 1923. He died 1922
Not much use
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE75194220
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The older Clare children previously listed could feasibly be grandparents of a WW1 soldier.
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Charlotte’s death certificate is in her probate file
Lists ages and sex of living children
45 yrs in NZ in 1912. So 1867 as you said
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE62438597
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Suspicion might fall here!
Son James’ whereabouts unknown after his mother died
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/MEX19151022.2.40.6?items_per_page=10&page=3&query=Clare%2c+Charlotte+elizabeth&snippet=true
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According to free index for 1921 census she was born Isle of Wight and I note from online trees that she was born 20/11/1914.
.........
If we put this advice with the info found by Mckha489 re a possible birth as a result of WW1 it does not really tie in. WW1 was declared on 28/7/1914.
Some NZ families who had emigrated to NZ and were wealthy enough/had a tradition of sending their children from NZ for further education etc in the UK. My father's oldest three siblings were sent to England: male Sandhurst, female Bart's hospital, male Sandhurst.
The Clare family from NZ could also have done this. So this means that they would have been in England before the outbreak of war and met someone while there.
You/we really need to look for the marriages/movements etc of the Clare/Seabrook family children.
I don't know very much about DNA but could it be a female Clare who had the baby?
The Index mentioned would have the adopted name presumably? Would there ever be a case where the DoB was wrongly recorded in an adoption case?
I see the DoB in OP is mentioned as c1915. Is there a way to get some clarity on this? If she was born on IoW before the war started then the idea of a male Clare being the father is not as strong but if the child was born during the war then this becomes a possibility.
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Looks like Florence Hale married Frank B Richards in Uxbridge Middlesex in 1913. Marriage was registered in the period Jul/Aug/Sept 1913. Not sure how long people waited/tried before adopting in those days but it does not seem very long after marriage to have adopted Peggy if she was born in Nov 1914.
Have you looked for a connection between the Hales/Richards family and the Clare/Seabrook family as it may have been through family connections. Presumably there are no DNA matches to Hales or Richards?
Do you know where the Clare/Seabrook family lived in the UK before coming to NZ?
Where did the Hales/Richards family live in the UK?
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As he/she was advised OP opened another thread which I've been posting on.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857387.msg7260065
perhaps it would be better if they were merged?
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Yes. How do we arrange this?
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Yes. How do we arrange this?
I have sent a message to the moderator
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Annoyingly a lot of my posts in this thread is getting stuck "under moderation"; hopefully this one will get through!
So I have replied to a number of points, but just to go over some again as the posts aren't showing (this is the same I have posted on the NZ thread which I will delete when the moderator merges)
So the 1921 Census has been read incorrectly; Peggy is actually listed as being born in Islington (not IOW).
The 1939 register shows Peggys DOB as 20 Nov 1914.
This person posting has happened across my tree which is here for those with Ancestory access
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/9383499/family/familyview?cfpid=6871813699&fpid=6871813699&usePUBJs=true
And for reference here is the Clare Family tree I have composed, but now needs updating with the information posted here!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/171705968/family/familyview?cfpid=282230045682
Florance Hale was Born in 1887/ Passed in 1950
Frank Richards was Born in 1890/ Passed in 1932
Thanks guys - this has already been fantastic!
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Suspicion might fall here!
Son James’ whereabouts unknown after his mother died
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/MEX19151022.2.40.6?items_per_page=10&page=3&query=Clare%2c+Charlotte+elizabeth&snippet=true
Well, that looks interesting! Certainly will be an interesting rabbit hole to follow... ;D
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what an exciting search
have you found any other cluster of surnames even small ?
i presume you have used the colour coding groups
sometimes having groups for locations helps too
if you have people with one colour for CLARE another for Seacroft + others for New Zealand + isleworth you may find where ancestors cross
I.ve just had success after a year searching using surname hunts for a match to unknown great
grandfather
the surname i was looking at as connection was not thru one of the sons but to their fathers wifes eldest sister so i was looking at wrong surname for the connection your CLARE children could be all blood related thru a grandmother further up the tree i
does that make sense .?
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what an exciting search
have you found any other cluster of surnames even small ?
i presume you have used the colour coding groups
sometimes having groups for locations helps too
if you have people with one colour for CLARE another for Seacroft + others for New Zealand + isleworth you may find where ancestors cross
I.ve just had success after a year searching using surname hunts for a match to unknown great
grandfather
the surname i was looking at as connection was not thru one of the sons but to their fathers wife's eldest sister so i was looking at the wrong surname for the connection your CLARE children could be all blood related thru a grandmother further up the tree i
does that make sense .?
Yes - I have 1 other group but not as large and hard to ping down a common point. That would be the "Males". I have dozens of other groups (all colour coded), but no discernable links between the included trees - however, I continue to return to them of course
And yes - totally makes sense. I've been building trees then working back through marriages families to see if there are any DNA matches, and then I can confirm connections. It's a long job; often completing others trees for them! It's a fantastic moment when you find something by connecting the dots!
It's rather annoying that Ancestry doesn't include better search features such as searching full names. Also, it would be fantastic if under others' "shared matches" it would show their "Possible DNA relationships" instead of mine.
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It's rather annoying that Ancestry doesn't include better search features such as searching full names. Also, it would be fantastic if under others' "shared matches" it would show their "Possible DNA relationships" instead of mine.
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Amen. Ancestry could make major improvements. I find the way Myheritage organise it a much more useful tool.
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I posted a reply to your thread about an hour ago.
It has disappeared into the ether, unless there was an operator error.
I'll try again,
It occurs to me that there IS a possible paper route to locate Peggy Richard’s’ biological mother.
1) You note that in Census 1921, Peggy’s birthplace is given as Isleworth (Middx).
2) What was the street address of Frank & Florence in the census?
3) From FreeBmd, the Hale/Richards marriage was at Uxbridge (Middx) in Q3, 1913.
4) Note both known locations in Middlesex; is street address also in Middlesex?
One hundred years ago, childbirth outside of marriage carried a lot of stigma, and many unmarried women would give up their baby for adoption.
5) If we assume that the birthdate of 20-Nov-14 is true [btw, what is the source for this?] and that the mother named her daughter Margaret, we can enter search parameters into FreeBmd to locate possible birth mothers. This is possible because an illegitimate child will be registered with the same surname as the mother.
A search of FreeBmd for,
sex: female
start date: Q1, 1913
end date : Q4, 1915
County: Middlesex
First name: Margaret
finds about 2230 matches.
Inspection to find the same surname for mother and child gives only a few hits.
Q1, 1913: Edginton; Mason
Q2, 1913: Dennis; Elworthy; Holland; Lightfoot*; Murphy; Storey
Q3, 1913: Haines; Hall(s); Julian; McCabe; Reade; Singleton*;
Q4, 1913: Hurcomb; Lockwood; Skates; Startin
Q1, 1914: Brock; Butcher*; Curtis*; Dowling; Hager; Welfare; Wolstenholme
Q2, 1914: Bullock; Dean; Erith;
Just one half in case this too disappears.
Regards,
JMB
Edit: I'll finish this later today.
Edit Apparently my full post went in at tthe end of the Clare Family in NZ thread.
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Edit: I'll finish this later today.
Hi! Thank you for this; coincidentally, I'm just picking this up again to try and find anything new
This similar line has occurred to me in the past, and I have played around with the search in a similar fashion, cross-checking several surnames that I have "of interest"
However, I am pretty certain there is no blood relation to either Hale or Richards, as I have extensively searched the DNA trial, and there are no actual hits. I have picked up dozens of hits on other branches of my family tree, so I suspect Peggy has been adopted. It's also worth noting that Florance never had any other children, which was unusual for the time, so I suspect Florance was unable to have Children
Up until a couple of years ago, I was working with the strong assumption that Peggy was adopted within the family, even had my suspicions of where that occurred, but after the DNA database became so large, I now work with the assumption this is unlikely
I'm cautious about the birthplace being indicated in Middlesex - that could just be where she was adopted and be the information passed down from Mother to her adopted Daughter.
Unconnected, but I was heartened to find this snipped - Peggy wrote an obituary to her mother, and then a year later "in memorial" (attached). Whatever the story here, Peggy was more than happy to call Florance her Mother.
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Dnallov,
Do you know the street address of the Richards family in the 1921 Census?
Regards,
JMB
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Dnallov,
Do you know the street address of the Richards family in the 1921 Census?
Regards,
JMB
36a Station Road, Hanwell
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Dnallov,
Thanks for the address!.
You had originally given Peggy's birthplace as Isleworth, but now it has morphed to Islington!
Which do you believe is true?
Regards,
JMB
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you said ancestry doesnt give clues about the relatioship but they do on thru lines as long as you + your match are connected correctly as home person on your trees and they have at least some deceased people on their tree
sometimes you can get alternative thru line suggestions
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Annoyingly a lot of my posts in this thread is getting stuck "under moderation"; hopefully this one will get through!
So I have replied to a number of points, but just to go over some again as the posts aren't showing (this is the same I have posted on the NZ thread which I will delete when the moderator merges)
So the 1921 Census has been read incorrectly; Peggy is actually listed as being born in Islington (not IOW).
The 1939 register shows Peggy's DOB as 20 Nov 1914.
This person posting has happened across my tree which is here for those with Ancestry access
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/9383499/family/familyview?cfpid=6871813699&fpid=6871813699&usePUBJs=true
And for reference here is the Clare Family tree I have composed, but now needs updating with the information posted here!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/171705968/family/familyview?cfpid=282230045682
Florance Hale was Born in 1887/ Passed in 1950
Frank Richards was Born in 1890/ Passed in 1932
Thanks guys - this has already been fantastic!
NB: Answer #3 says ISLEWORTH not Islington???
Easily confused, but NOT the same place.
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Dnallov,
Thanks for the address!.
You had originally given Peggy's birthplace as Isleworth, but now it has morphed to Islington!
Which do you believe is true?
Regards,
JMB
My mistake - as above, it should be "ISLEWORTH"!
The 1921 census is the only record I have that places a birthplace for Peggy. This was provided by the parents, of course (I got in a muddle earlier), but I can't see any relation to the parents and Isleworth, who in 1915 lived in the same location (36a Station Road, Hanwell) - if they were "making it up", you would guess they may have put "Hanwell". Maybe specific enough to suggest it's the true birthplace