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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: bob165 on Friday 07 January 22 22:44 GMT (UK)
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One of my ancestor's marriage record seems to show his town and I'm guessing country but I can't read it. I tried to use the links in the forums recommended but the words resulting made no sense.
Here is a picture of the image:
(http://)
Thank you for any guesses.
Not to lead anyone on, but I believe he came from Alsace or Germany or Austria or similar.
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Welcome to RootsChat, bob165 - Can you please give us an idea of which entry you are referring to.
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Welcome to RootsChat, bob165 - Can you please give us an idea of which entry you are referring to.
Has it got a red line round it on the right hand page?
Kay
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:-[ :-[ :-[
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But I still can't read it :-\
Kay
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Could it be Lindenburg or similar?
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Is that a "breve" above the last letter in the 2nd word below "shoemaker"?
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Might it be "Nassau? (Germany)
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I'd say the first word definitely starts with 'Ein..' but can't make out the rest. That word might end in 'gf' which is odd.
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I'd say the first word definitely starts with 'Ein..' but can't make out the rest. That word might end in 'gf' which is odd.
That's how I've been reading it
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I agree Lindenberg (see the L of Louis above). Cant account for the F. It’s not the same as the f in of elsewhere.
There is the city Lindenberg im Allgäu. But that last word doesn’t look like Allgäu (or Bavaria!)
Struck through as now I’ve been looking the E of Emma everywhere looks more like this.
Added. There is also Eisenberg.
That letter in the middle that I’ve been thinking is a d, does not look like other d’s on the page.
But also, it doesn’t look like other s’s. In fact I cannot see so far another letter that is the same!
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Might it be "Nassau? (Germany)
Just about everyone else is of Philadelphia, or if not, other US states.
So it might be Nassau NY.
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Welcome to RootsChat, bob165 - Can you please give us an idea of which entry you are referring to.
Has it got a red line round it on the right hand page?
Kay
Yes that is the one.
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Not to lead anyone on, but I believe he came from Alsace or Germany or Austria or similar.
So he probably had a German sounding name? Is there a reason you (or someone else) erased his and her name from this record? Names might help retrieve extra information in order to solve your question.
To be honest, it is a mystery what's been written here. One would expect city, State if it was in the U.S. If it was abroad, city, Country would be the most logical thing. I just can't think of a country that even remotely looks like the second word.
If the second word was a part of a country, my guess would be Hessen, a state in Germany.
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5 entries down is a double s. It doesn’t look the same >:( >:(
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Re. the possible "breve" over what looks like a "u". I thought it might be "au" at the end and the only instance of a "breve" over "au" I can see is in Belarussian.
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5 entries down is a double s. It doesn’t look the same >:( >:(
I agree.
There are a few letters that I see nowhere else. Frustrating, isn't it? >:(
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Whereabouts is the marriage record from?
It looks like Eind - - t or k ugf. If the marriage occurred in a different country, you’ll need to be flexible with spellings. For the other word, my guess is Nuffau, which doesn’t seem right. :-\
Re. the possible "breve" over what looks like a "u". I thought it might be "au" at the end and the only instance of a "breve" over "au" I can see is in Belarussian.
That’s what I see too.
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1. My guess is Hopfau, Germany. In Southwest Germany, near Alsace region of France.
2. Nassau is a county in the US. I don't think a US Marriage register would record a county as a place of birth, especially without the city within it.
3. This record is a marriage record from St Michael's and Zion [Lutheran] Church in Philadelphia, a German language church, at least at one time. I didn't go into the history a lot. I found the record by looking at ancestry for a more readable name on the page.
4. to the OP - do you have other records for this man that says at least what country he was born in? It would narrow down the guess work.
5. I have no idea of the word before "Hopfau" - it could be a neighborhood in the city ??
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Thank you all for the help. His name is John Michel and written family records believe he came from Alsace Lorraine but the strength of this is weak.
I did a letter by letter comparison and here is the image for that work:
(http://)
I'm thinking the name of town might be something like Ei?d??kopf, Nassau.
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Thanks for details of location oldohiohome :-\.
It’s a good idea to look elsewhere for information of his origins. Would there have been naturalisation at this time which might give details of place of birth? :-\ Would the father’s place of birth be recorded on his children’s bmds or in his own d/c? Or his immigration or arrival in the USA?
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Thanks for details of location oldohiohome :-\.
It’s a good idea to look elsewhere for information of his origins. Would there have been naturalisation at this time which might give details of place of birth? :-\ Would the father’s place of birth be recorded on his children’s bmds or in his own d/c? Or his immigration or arrival in the USA?
the record being discussed:
married October 26, 1887, St Michel's and Zion Church, Philadelphia
John Michel, a shoemaker, born in ??. his parents: Emma Schmidt, Sulo? Michel
marriage to Anna K Brown, born in Philadelphia, her parents: John Brown and ?? Lutz
[the father's name is as hard to read as the birthplace]
The marriage record was in 1887, with him obviously in Philadelphia by this time. The arrivals and naturalization records for that time period would probably not say any more than the country. Later they would include a town or city, but not that early.
The children's birth records would be the best hope for a detailed place of birth since he was alive to fill out the record. His death record would not be as good. It would depend on the memory of his survivors and how much detail the person recording the information wanted to put down.
All vital records would be held by the state and county in Pennsylvania.
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A man named John L Michel died near Philadelphia in 1961. His death record said he was born December 15, 1890, in Philadelphia, son of John Michael and Anna Braun. Parents' birthplaces were not asked for on the record.
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This could be John L and his divorced mother Anna in 1910
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MGZL-VSZ
If so, Anna's husband John, whom we are looking at, was born in Germany.
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Haven't found them in 1900 and haven't looked for John Michel, Sr, in 1910.
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Could the letter after Ein be an F?
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I noticed a surname which looks like Reif on the previous page … the last letter of your first word looks similar. Because Reis(s) makes more sense than Reif, I am wondering if the last letter is s, or the German double s that looks like a B with a tail. :-\ (not that that helps)
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Maybe we're looking for Lindenkopf, Nassau, Germany
You can find it on the map below. Not really a village (more like a mountain I guess), but who knows?
https://www.lagis-hessen.de/de/subjects/browse/id/3/current/41/sn/hkw
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Biedenkopf, Hessen Nassau
https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10166020
Dave
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So ,John MICHEL seems to have been born in Germany near Nassau. You may try to find his birth there.
Bur his ancestors may have come from Alsace ( there are a lot of Michels in Haut Rhin.)
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I couldn't find a birth record for John Michel's son John Lewis Michel (Dec 15, 1890, Philadelphia). So no help there for a birthplace for John Sr.
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I found John L with his maternal grandparents in Norriton, Pa, in 1900. but his mother is not there. He is listed as John L Mitchel, age 9. Grandparents are Mathias, 69, and Kunigunda, 60.
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Also, here are some records from the Philadelphia City Directory which might help you determine when John Michel arrived in Philadelphia, and maybe in the USA. Also to figure out when the family broke up:
1875, 1878, 1879, 1880 Philadelphia City Directory
no John Michel at all
1881 Philadelphia City Directory
John Michel, shoemaker, home at South 22nd corner of Pine
I skipped 1882 to 1889
1890
John Michel, shoes, 2417 Ridge Avenue
1895
John Michel, shoes at N 26th corner of Montgomery. home at 1901 Judson Place
1896
John Michel, shoes, 2430 Ridge Avenue
1897
no John Michel, shoemaker
1898
no John Michel, shoemaker
1900
there were 4 men named John Michel. none were shoemakers
skipped 1901 to 1908
1909
John Michel, clerk for the Pennsylvania Railroad, home 1810 N VanPelt [note: the son]
there were 8 other men named John Michel. none of them was a shoemaker
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Thank you all so much! I'll have to go through each of your responses and see how it may align with what I may have. Very encouraging.
Some of the information I had regarding his son (John Lewis, my grandfather) but did not have the origin of John Michel from the marriage license.
A family written narrative had him at 66 years old when he died (birth approximately in 1865) and is buried in Mt. Vernon Cemetery, 3499 West Lehigh Avenue, Philadelphia, PA.
I could not find a death certificate for him which I don't understand why. Are these records that spotty?
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The Pennsylvania death certificates for that time period are at ancestry.com. I haven't found them spotty. But I don't see John Michel, b 1865 in Germany or France, d 1931 in Philadelphia. None of those fields were checked as exact, and ancestry usually widens the search.
Could he have died elsewhere and been brought back to Philadelphia for burial? But that might imply that the family knew where he was and kept in touch.
Have you contacted the cemetery, or are you pretty certain of the information that he is buried there? They should be willing to verify it, at least. Some cemeteries are more helpful than others.
I didn't find him at all in 1900 or 1910 in Phila. And the City Directories imply he left the area about 1896, which "does not bode well" for finding him. It is turning out to be a common name, so only the profession and the birth place might help find him.
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Dear Oldohiohome,
Thanks!
My work shows that his wife (Bertha) remarried after the birth of John Lewis and before his father John Michel the shoemaker died, supposedly in 1931 or so. I have lots of info for her (Bertha) but John Michel's past is murky. Perhaps he was an alcoholic or an abuser?
The cemetery is evidently closed; I haven't called to see if I could visit yet as I was trying to nail down his details better.
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My work shows that his wife (Bertha) remarried after the birth of John Lewis and before his father John Michel the shoemaker died, supposedly in 1931 or so.
When did she remarry & what is her status on the re-marriage i.e. Divorced/Widow?
Would it not be an idea to 'home-in' on the entry you're interested in & post a bigger/enlarged snip with some surrounding text to compare as the snip posted is unreadable (to me) & likely others?
Annie
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Biedenkopf, Hessen Nassau
https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10166020
Dave
I would support Dave's conclusion.
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Thank you all; I haven't been able to source a death certificate and Census entries for his son in the 1900s lists Germany and Alsace as birthplaces for his father so that complicates narrowing down the birthplace just a bit.
He could have emigrated as a shoemaker but then changed jobs; there is a John Michel running a bar at that time so he could be him.
I'm not discounting the hard work down here to date; I'd like to be able to confirm with a second source. Perhaps a better image of the church record might help.
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Biedenkopf, Hessen Nassau
https://www.meyersgaz.org/place/10166020
Dave
I would support Dave's conclusion.
Here's another vote for Biedenkopf, Nassau. (From someone who used to live in Hessen. ;D)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedenkopf