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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: chrissiecruiser on Sunday 02 January 22 05:25 GMT (UK)
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Hi to you all,
I have my Great Grand Aunt, Mary Cave born 29th January 1831.... Stoke sub Hamden, Somerset, England.
Most of the family including Mary sailed to Australia on the "Duke of Bronte", arriving in Adelaide on 12th September 1849.
She met David Thomas esq on board and perhaps were a little indiscreet as the couple were married 24th September 1849 at Holy Trinity Church, Adelaide. (Only 12 days after arrival) She was 18yo and he 17yo.
They had 2 children, Mary Ellen Cave Thomas, b.1851 and Francis Henry Thomas, b.1852
Then Mary married John Beaton Terrell on the 20th January 1855. They had 1 son, Walter Clarke Terrell, b. 1866.
My problem is this....... The Register Marriage Announcement of Mary and John Terrell says Mary was "relict" of David Thomas. Does this not mean he was deceased?
I have him as dying at Redruth, Burra, South Australia in 1861. This is a long way from Adelaide.
I have a tree on An***try and this is one little thing bugging me.
It is possible that they drifted apart, he to Burra and she onto John Terrell. The divorce laws in the 1850's were murky and women could not obtain one. She came from a large, successful family and her father may have had it quietly hidden.
Thankyou for reading,
Chris
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"Relict" means "widow' so either Mary thought he was dead or, if you have the correct death date for him, she was knowingly committing bigamy.
Judith
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Thanks Judith,
Am still looking for anything that relates to David Thomas about his death but so far, no luck.
He would have had to pass between 1851/2-1854/5
Chris
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I notice that John Beaton TERRELL was resident at Stoke-sub-Hamden in 1851, so did Mary and John know each other back in England?
Judith
(My niece lives in Stoke- gorgeous part of England)
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Good point Judith!
Thankyou.
Now to do a bit more on his emigration.
They would have done, surely?
The family farmed and lived at "The Priory".
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"The family farmed and lived at "The Priory".
Where is The Priory?
What occupation do you have for David THOMAS?
What age do you have for John Beaton TERRELL?
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The announcement of the marriage describes him as Esq and a merchant.
This strikes me as an unlikely description for a 17 year old youth.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71624752
The Biographical Index of South Australians gives this
THOMAS David
b.1823. Oswaldsey England. Arrived 1849 Duke of Bronte. Occ. Daper. Residence Adelaide. Religion Protestant. Married by 1853.
Did you think there were others of the THOMAS family on the voyage?
Siblings, parents?
Sue
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"She came from a large, successful family and her father may have had it quietly hidden."
Where was the large successful family when Mary CAVE was in South Australia in the early 1850s?
Where any of them in South Australia?
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:-\
Quite a lot of differing information on various sites for the passenger list for the Duke of Bronte
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/195938439 13 September 1849.
I see Charles, Susan, Sarah, Ann, Mary, Martha, Jane, Lucy, and John Cave on the passenger list of the Duke of Bronte but I am not seeing a David Thomas; i could easily have missed him. (There's David, Thomas, Frederick Waren?, but the way the commas are inserted that would seem to me to be three males with surname Waren? - could easily be a mistake)
However this article does show a surname Thomas,
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206981148
And this one seems not to show the Cave family but does have David Thomas with no comma!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/50245356
I am somewhat amused at the description of David Thomas, apparently a 17yearold draper, as 'Esq, merchant, of Southampton' in the newspaper report of the marriage of David and Mary.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71624752,
Newspaper: South Australian, Tue 25 Sep 1849
Yesterday, at Trinity Church, by the very Rev. the Dean of Adelaide, David Thomas, Esq., merchant, late of Southampton, to Mary, third daughter of Thomas Cave, Esq., Stoke Parsonage, Somersetshire.
This is quite a high-status occasion.
As there was a newspaper announcement for the Terrell marriage, which included Mary's father's name and mention of David Thomas it would seem likely that there was a firm belief that David Thomas was deceased.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/71624752 - South Australian Register, Mon 22 Jan 1855
MARRIED.
On the 20th inst., at St. Mary's, Sturt, by the Rev. R. Strong, Mr. John B. Terrell to Mary, relict of the late Mr. David Thomas, and fourth daughter of the late Charles Cave, Esq., of Stoke Parsonage, Somersetshire.
Judith
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Wivenhoe - I think "The Priory' is the one in Stoke-sub-Hamdon, Somerset and is now a National Trust property - quite posh!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoke_sub_Hamdon_Priory
Judith
Still wondering - did she know the Terrell family back in Somerset?
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David THOMAS
Reply #6 has the details on BISA including his arrival.
NB! Date of birth
Sue
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John Beaton TERRELL is memorialised at St Mary the Virgin church, Stoke-sub-Hamdon, where his parents are buried. A beautiful church and churchyard.
Judith
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Sue, the birthdate of 1823 seems much more sensible than 1832.
Judith
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What details do you have for David Thomas from the marriage certificate? Place of birth, parents, siblings, etc?
Given that the marriage notice was advertised https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/158101888?searchTerm=David%20thomas I really doubt that she would advertise a bigamous wedding?
Jo :)
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I notice that the 1849 marriage notice says Mary is the third daughter of Thomas CAVE, this is also printed in the English press Tuesday, Feb. 26, 1850 Publication: Sherborne Mercury, although it says "Thomas Care".
(There is also a marriage announcement in England for Anne "third daughter of the late Charles Cave, Esq,. Stoke Parsonage" on 6 Sep 1852 - Saturday, Feb. 26, 1853 Publication: Western Times.)
The 1841 census for Charles at Stoke sub Hamdon Lower North St:
Charles CAVE 50 yeoman
Susannah 40
John 15
Elizabeth 15
Sarah 14
Ann 12
Martha 9
Jane 7
Lucy 5
Susan 3
HO 107/960/7 pg1
I wonder where Mary is?
Seems some confusion about names and place in the family?
Also an advertisement that may be of interest for "Prime Timber to be sold by Auction" at Stoke under Hamden on the Parsonage Farm, Mr Charles CAVE will appoint someone to show the Lots.
Saturday, Jan. 16, 1847 Publication: Sherborne Mercury
Modified to add:
I notice John TERRELL is a few pages away from the CAVE's on the 1841 census (pg 5)
Modified again:
This might be Mary in 1841 in Martock, with James (60, carpenter) and Rhoda (60) COURT
HO/107/951/2 pg 24
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:-\
Quite a lot of differing information on various sites for the passenger list for the Duke of Bronte
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/195938439 13 September 1849.
I see Charles, Susan, Sarah, Ann, Mary, Martha, Jane, Lucy, and John Cave on the passenger list of the Duke of Bronte but I am not seeing a David Thomas; i could easily have missed him. (There's David, Thomas, Frederick Waren?, but the way the commas are inserted that would seem to me to be three males with surname Waren? - could easily be a mistake)
I think it probably is a mistake, as in the lists of names of families the last name is preceded by "and" as in "... Lucy, and John Cave". There is no "and", so I think the comma after "David" is probably an error.
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For interest, there is also an advertisement for a steam engine and other equipment for sale, enquire " ... or, Mr. David Thomas, draper, Oswestry."
Friday, Oct. 9, 1840 Publication: Chester Chronicle
A few earlier mentions of a David THOMAS, draper of Oswestry eg dissolving a partnership in 1830, and another in 1805 (mercers)
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Thankyou all for your interest.
Judith, you are on the ball!
Mary was actually Charles 5th daughter but 4th surviving one.
Her sister, Susan died as a young teen. So one paper was sort of correct.
The Priory is a beautiful old building in Stoke sub Hamden. The Cave family leased quite a few holdings and various houses. When they left, the lease was taken over by Charles brother-in-law, Susanna's brother....the Darbys.
All of that family were in South Australia.
The youngest son, William Rendall Cave (my G Grandfather) was an importer/exporter, was Consul to Chile, had grain sheds at Port Adelaide, offices at nearly every railway station in the state ( to bring the grain to the Port).
He had 3 tug boats and was in shares in grain boats. They lived at North Adelaide and had a Summer Residence at Mount Lofty (also called Stirling). The name of the house was called "Pomona", goddess of flowers and fruit.
I have been there and many of the original plantings survive.
When I go on my computer I will follow up your other points.
Bit hard on my phone.
Thankyou again for your delving. Much appreciated.
Chris
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I meant to add last night that I wondered why the Biographical Index of South Australians has David THOMAS as from Oswestry, whilst the marriage notice (which is suspect on Mary's father's name and Mary's place in the family!) says he is "late of Southampton". Couple's birthplaces were not usually recorded on SA marriages in this time. Or maybe I'm wrong in thinking "Oswaldsey" is meant to be Oswestry. I can't see anywhere of the first name in the UK :-\
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Yes. I do not know what/where about "Oswaldsey"
I did look carefully to check what I was seeing :o
Wherever it was, it was stated as native place and he could still be "late of Southampton" I suppose
Sue
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FamilySearch has this baptism but the surname is very common in the border areas.
David Thomas
Baptism:15 December 1822 at Oswestry, Shropshire, England
Parents: Arthur, Mary
FHL Film Number: 1657582 Reference ID: 200
However looking at the images (FindMyPast) the parents of David Thomas, baptised 15 December 1822 at St Oswald's, Oswestry are listed as Stephen and Mary, abode: Leg St, occupation: farmer
This record is also shown as on FamilySearch with film numbers FHL Film Number: 501462, 501463, 501464. These FamilySearch ref numbers are cited in Ancestry's England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Judith
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Hello again Judith, Sue, Maddy and Jo....
Judith, with regards to Mary and John Beaton Terrell knowing each other, I have no doubt that the families were acquainted.
On the Electoral Registers that I have for Mary's Father, Charles, the lease numbers were on the same street, that is Lower or North Street. 1846 Charles is 3175 and Terrells houses 3200,1,2 and 3.
So you see, they are quite close.
1842 Charles is 6227 and Terrell's, 6261.
Sue and Maddy, there were no other Thomas's on the Duke of Bronte that I can find. I did check Oswestry 1841 Census and there is a Thomas family with a David (age 6)and 7 siblings with father being a draper. Lots of Thomas's though.
Jo, I do not have a Marriage Certificate for Mary Cave and David Thomas as she was my Great Grand Aunt and not in my direct line, saving a bit of money.
I do all my research online basically as I am on a small farm 360k's from the nearest big library in Adelaide, am retired and don't have much cash these days.
It amazes me what one can discover through papers etc. Trove, the Australian research line in the National Library of Australia is fantastic and all free!
Nearly as good as Rootschatters!!!
Thankyou all for helping out.
Cheers,
Chris
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Sue and Maddy, there were no other Thomas's on the Duke of Bronte that I can find. I did check Oswestry 1841 Census and there is a Thomas family with a David (age 6)and 7 siblings with father being a draper. Lots of Thomas's though.
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Edward THOMAS, the father of this family, and a draper , is too young to be the father of the correct David THOMAS. He is only about 30 years (+/- for 1841census)
But the draper connection seems relevant to me and I would wonder if Edward THOMAS had a brother in the same occupation with a family
The baptism is interesting Judith. Were there other baptisms to this couple in your searchings?
Sue
ADDING
I wonder what records were available to those compiling the Biographical Index of South Australians that led the record to read, married by 1853?
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ADDING
I wonder what records were available to those compiling the Biographical Index of South Australians that led the record to read, married by 1853?
Replying to myself :o
Maybe this is relevant
THOMAS David aged 30 year 1853
Hospital, Asylum and Lying-in Home Admissions
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I am NSW centric so not much help with S.A., sorry. But .... without side tracking the thread, please may I ask about a Lying-in Home Admissions for a male... I thought Lying-In was for birthing. :) ::) Being NSW centric I could of course be WRONG ....
JM
ADD .... ancient rellie phoned me just now .... I need new specs .... Sue has typed Hospital, Asylum and Lying-In Home Admissions. I will be found standing in the corner.
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:) :)
I think the reference is to 3 separate institutions-
1. Hospital
2. Asylum
3.Lying-in home
Hopefully if the records were actually readily available, we would find this David in either Hospital or Asylum!
ADDING The little I can find about the records says-
The Adelaide Hospital admission records often recorded the name of the ship the patient arrived on......
Sue
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:) Hi, Sue is spot on. My ancient rellie says so too.
JM
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ADDING
I wonder what records were available to those compiling the Biographical Index of South Australians that led the record to read, married by 1853?
Replying to myself :o
Maybe this is relevant
THOMAS David aged 30 year 1853
Hospital, Asylum and Lying-in Home Admissions
WOW! Sparrett, this gives me another avenue to go.
Thankyou.
I will get busy.
Chris
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ADDING
I wonder what records were available to those compiling the Biographical Index of South Australians that led the record to read, married by 1853?
I think that they took information from anywhere, including members of the public.
A good description of the source of the work from Gould Books:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r57/
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ADDING I think so too duinnsleibhe
The wonderful people who compiled the BISA obviously had access to all the records there were.
The way the records were linked to establish the individual identities is amazing.
My speculative guess is that the David THOMAS was admitted to either Hospital or Asylum in 1853 and he is distinguished from others of the name by his ship of arrival on that admission record. Also his marital status was possibly recorded.
Thus his entry in BISA states, married by 1853.
Possibly also the family of his wife (his only family in the colony) did not place a newspaper death notice ( if he did in fact die in care), because it did not suit their perceived social position :D
Sue
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My speculative guess is that the David THOMAS was admitted to either Hospital or Asylum in 1853 and he is distinguished from others of the name by his ship of arrival on that admission record. Also his marital status was possibly recorded.
Thus his entry in BISA states, married by 1853.
Possibly also the family of his wife (his only family in the colony) did not place a newspaper death notice ( if he did in fact die in care), because it did not suit their perceived social position :D
Sue
I think that I have located the two entries for the Hospital admission for David Thomas. I'm not sure how to link to it as it is on FamilySearch.
There are indexes at the SA archives that give the volume numbers to consult.
He was admitted twice in January 1853 with Delerium Tremens.
Edit to add the link to the SA Archives page that led me to the digitised record:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r58/
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Oh Dear. This may be why the family chose against a public death notice.
Alcoholism.
duinnsleibhe Just try a copy and paste of the link to the records you see from the address bar at familysearch.
Sue
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duinnsleibhe Just try a copy and paste of the link to the records you see from the address bar at familysearch.
Sue
Here is the shortened link:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r59/
There is one entry near the top of the page, and another towards the bottom for David Thomas.
Edit to add: That link works for me, but I am logged in to FS.
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Definitely the correct chap.
Great work ;)
It does show M for married in the correct column and it does state draper, so that is where the BISA information came from, but I cannot see his ship of arrival listed.
I am guessing there are further records somewhere (or lost)
Sue
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Sorry, I should not have been so hasty to post. ::)
Here is the second volume's entry for David Thomas, which does list ship of entry, and other things. It also mentions that alternative place Oswaldsey
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5a/
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Fantastic.
It's nailed.
Interesting someone paid the fee to enter him to the hospital in both instances. Money was not an issue.
The lack of death record is a mystery to me, but there are lost and omitted records everywhere in indexes of the world!
Sue
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I wonder whether he wandered off after his second hospital stint.
Maybe out of favour with his wife and her family having not lived up to the Esq and merchant tags.
There is this death in Victoria
THOMAS David
Reg 416 /Year 1855
Parents names Unknown
Place of birth *Card.
*maybe Cardiganshire.
My Welsh geography is non existent, but is this a possible for a birth at Ostwestry?
Sue
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Oswestry is very close to the Welsh border, however Cardiganshire is not very close. :-\
Great find duinnsleibhe!
The second link though does say he had only been in the Colony for 1 year. :-\ Will check whether the Duke of Bronte made a trip later.
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Seems like the Duke of Bronte only made the one trip to SA (1849). There was another in 1851, but that was to New Zealand.
https://passengers.history.sa.gov.au/vessel-voyages-all/924576
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Re 1 year.
This would likely be info from the patient, given perhaps when being admitted. If so, it is possible a patient with the DTs may have not have retained a sense of time or noticed the change of seasons. I would not eliminate this person because of that piece of puzzling info on a hospital record.
JM.
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Yes, I agree, good point JM. :) Especially as there wasn't another voyage to Oz by the Duke of Bronte.
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Duinnsleibhe,
You are incredible!
Thankyou so much for your work ferreting that info out.
Also to you other rootschatters. You are so helpful.
I'll follow up the Vic death to find out what I can.
Stay safe,
Chris
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There is this death in Victoria
THOMAS David
Reg 416 /Year 1855
Parents names Unknown
Place of birth *Card.
Sue
Whilst I perfectly agree with all the reasons against this being the man, I feel compelled to push it to its final eleimination.
At this stage-
Vic BMD index online does not allow for a toggle down to get exact date for BMD events, so in order to establish the approximate date for the above listing, I have recorded the names of those listed by registration number immediately before and after his (which is 416) then searched for death notice for those people. Not all will have a notice of course
Thus-
William Vallance, reg 1855 414 death notice in the newspaper gives death date 6th January.
Sarah Ann Jacob reg 1855 431 death notice in the newspaper gives death date 9 th January
Therefore I think we can conclude the date for the death of this David Thomas 1855 416 was with the first week of January 1855.
The second marriage for Mary CAVE is registered as 20th January 1855
Sue
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Sue, I wonder ... would that Vic BDM registration note the cemetery and/or the funeral director? It seems to me that the CAVE family would likely have been well aware of Mary's husband's deterioration and therefore have perhaps organised his funeral and burial, perhaps fully funding it. Would the Vic BDM record include the names of the 'official witnesses' ... and or the name/denomination of the clergy ... Clergy would record burials in the local parish register and transmit at least a summary to their Diocese/head quarters. The church burial register should be extant. It is also possible that the funeral director records may still be extant, particularly if the F.D firm has continued to trade. And, of course the cemetery records should also be extant. So perhaps our OP has further opportunities to sort the puzzle.
JM
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Could the place name by OWSLEBURY? - Written by someone who didn’t know it and was just putting down what was heard.
It is about 20 miles from Southhampton.
There is also a place called OSSEMSLEY near to Southhampton.
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Hi Neale,
well, that is a possibility. He may have been working in that area.
Thankyou
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Sue, I wonder ... would that Vic BDM registration note the cemetery and/or the funeral director? It seems to me that the CAVE family would likely have been well aware of Mary's husband's deterioration and therefore have perhaps organised his funeral and burial, perhaps fully funding it. Would the Vic BDM record include the names of the 'official witnesses' ... and or the name/denomination of the clergy ... Clergy would record burials in the local parish register and transmit at least a summary to their Diocese/head quarters. The church burial register should be extant. It is also possible that the funeral director records may still be extant, particularly if the F.D firm has continued to trade. And, of course the cemetery records should also be extant. So perhaps our OP has further opportunities to sort the puzzle.
JM
Hi JM, Below lists the basic findings on a Victorian Death Certificate from 1853 forward.
However there is always a great variation in the amount and quality of information on the completed form. Some will have additional notes to aid definite identification while others have a bit of "can't really be bothered " approach with little effort or attention to detail or truth!.
I have definitely seen burial arrangements included and knowing where the death took place makes cemetery searches a possibility.
It is just not possible to guess what this certificate may hold.
Current cost of immediate download is $15.
Name
Date
Death place
Age
Occupation
Cause of death
Parents' names
Spouse names
Marriage details
Chns names
No of chn
Birthplace
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Hello all,
I have purchased the unofficial death certificate of David Thomas and also researched Melbourne in 1855.
He died on the 6th January 1855 as was surmised, at the Wesleyan Immigrants Home.
His occupation was listed as a joiner.
25 year old David's cause of death was "Fever and Dysentery 11 days"
Nothing else....no parents, wife, wife's family, nothing.
Perhaps he had been in Melbourne for that year.
Upon researching, I found that Melbourne was over-run with GOLD FEVER. 20,000 people arrived looking for Gold. "The roaring 50's"
The Wesleyan Immigrants Home was built to assist the homeless and provided accommodation for 100 men and 100 women.
The banks of the Yarra were packed with people trying to make a living and scavenge food.
Must have been a sad time for many.
I was going to attach the certificate but was unable to post it.
However, upon playing with my computer I was able to decipher the name of the home.
It seems that this was a common occurrence so not many details are listed.
Bye for now,
Chris
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Ah well!
Disappointing. I think it is not the man after all. Draper to joiner is not likely especially as he was not a well person with his addiction and so on.
Yes, there was a great movement to Victoria in the 1850's and that is why I wondered if he had joined the surge to try his luck on the goldfields.
There are other possibilities. Perhaps he headed back to England, perhaps he died shortly after his release from the Hospital and the record is lost.
Anyhow, you are further progressed in the search than originally and I think it would be fair to say Mary's second marriage was not bigamous as you had feared.
Sue
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Thankyou
Sue for your interest. It has been an Education!
Yes, as soon as I saw the occupation, I thought he was the wrong one. I have, however emailed the Hospitals Records in Victoria to see if they have any more.
I do not think they will though, their records start from 1856 I think.
Certainly a puzzle.
I will look further into emigration back to England.
Thanks to all of you.
I will close this off now.
Cheers, Chris