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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: stewart_r on Saturday 01 January 22 17:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am new to genealogy and have hit a bit of an impasse in researching my paternal grandmother's line. I have gotten a couple of generations back and discovered an ancestor who's 1867 birth certificate states "Illegitimate".
His father is listed as a James Stevenson - Shoemaker and his mother's as Mary Gillespie - Boot Binder.
Looking at the 1861 Census in the same area (although not quite the same address) I can find a Mary Gillespie with occupation Boot Binder living with her husband Michael Gillespie and a couple of children. Similarly, I can find a James Stevenson with occupation Shoemaker living with his wife and child.
Does this make it likely that my ancestor was the result of an extra-marital affair or am I leaping to conclusions with some common names and occupations in a highly populated city? Is there anyway to research this further?
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My thoughts. There are others on the board more experienced in Scotland but..
If she was married, I think even though illegitimate, that the mother’s maiden surname would be entered.
Also, being Scotland, I am inclined to think it would say something like Mary Gillespie M(aiden) S(urname) Brown, wife of…….
So I would be looking for an unmarried Mary Gillespie.
Added.. also, technically, if the mother is married, the baby is not illegitimate.
Added .. have you found the child in 1871? Who are they with?
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As mckha489 says, if the mother was married, the certificate would state the fact and that her husband was not the father. Your first task would be locating the child in the 1871 and 1881 census.
If you have found the child's marriage and death certificates, how were the parents described there?
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What was the name of the child born in 1867?
Where was the birth registered?
Who registered the birth?
What was the address?
It is necessary to know all the information on the birth reg.
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I am attaching a copy of an Edinburgh birth registration for 1885 where both parents were present at the birth registration but the child is marked "illigitimate" as the parents were not married at the time of the birth. If they had been married it would have given the date and place of their wedding.
It is my understanding that in Scotland a child born to a married couple, was considered the child of the husband and would therefore be legitimate.
Hope this helps.
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Family search has 4 children showing with parents named as James Stevenson and Mary Gillsepie born in Edinburgh in the correct timeframe.
Jane Stevenson born 15 July 1858 ( mother named as Mary Stevenson Gillespie) There is a death on Scotland's People in 1859 in Canongate RD for a Jane Stevenson with mother's maiden name of Gillespie age 1.
Mary Stevenson or Gillespie born 13 Jan 1865 ( I note there is a death on Scotland's People in 1866 in Canongate RD with mother's maiden name of Gillespie age 2)
William Stevenson 23 Dec 1867 ( I suspect this is your ancestor)
Richard Stevenson 22 Oct 1860
Re the last named this 1861 census entry is worth considering
Address Pleasance , St Cuthbert's, Canongate
James Stevenson Married 44 Shoemaker b Canongate
Mary Stevenson Married 35 Boot binder b Canongate
Richard Stevenson Son 0 b Greyfriars Midlothian
Is this coincidence re the occupations? Is it possible that James and Mary lived as man and wife but never actually married? It may be worth obtaining some of the birth and death certs noted above to establish if they are the other children of the James Stevenson and Mary Gillespie you are looking for.
William
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William, I think you are right with your conclusions.
This is 1871 I think from what you have found:
James Stevenson 55 Shoemaker (unempld) b. So Leith, Edinr
Mary Stevenson 46 b. So Leith, Edinr
William Stevenson 3 b. So Leith, Edinr
Address: 4 High Calton, Canongate
I wonder where son Richard may be. Can't see a death for him in this decade between censuses.
Monica
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There is a death in 1862 (no age or details)
STEVENSON RICHARD
Canongate
1862
685/3 1188
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Thank you so much everyone for responding so helpfully.
To answer the questions:
.. have you found the child in 1871? Who are they with?
I found the same record as Monica. I suspected this might be them but then was confused because Mary's surname was now Stevenson but I couldn't find a marriage record. I'd also missed the occupation matching so couldn't quite convince myself it was the same James, Mary & William (such common names, right?)
What was the name of the child born in 1867?
Where was the birth registered?
Who registered the birth?
What was the address?
It is necessary to know all the information on the birth reg.
Sorry, I should have included more on my OP. Images of William Stevenson's birth, marriage and death certs all attached this time.
...It may be worth obtaining some of the birth and death certs noted above to establish if they are the other children of the James Stevenson and Mary Gillespie you are looking for....
Thanks so much for that useful, I've obtained Richard Stevenson's birth certificate which looks very similar to William's (ran out of space to attach it to the post but parents names & occupations same as on William's and also "Illegitimate").
It's sounding like the consensus of opinion is that it's really likely that Mary Gillespie and James Stevenson just never married officially although they lived as if husband and wife throughout? I think I was thrown off by assuming the Mary's name would only change from Gillespie to Stevenson if there was a marriage record but I can see how naïve that assumption was now.
I think that unblocks me and gives me confidence that the Mary Stevenson/Gillespie & James Stevenson on the census records are my ancestors and let's me try and pin down some birth records for them (why did everyone choose such common names back then!!? :-))
Thank you so much everyone - it's really appreciated
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There is a death in 1862 (no age or details)
STEVENSON RICHARD
Canongate
1862
685/3 1188
Thanks - got it. That's definitely him. Anyone able to make out the cause of death? I think I am seeing "Imperfect A_____ _____ia" but no real idea?
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stewart_r, what was the address given on William's Dec 1867 birth cert?
What happened with William in later years? Have you found him in censuses to help you further?
Neale1961, that must be son Richard's death reg. Easy enough to cofirm by checking the death reg, stewart_r.
Monica
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It is difficult to see what became of the family after 1871 census. :-\
Yes, I agree, we really need to hear back from stewart-r.
I wonder if this is William in 1881 census Gilmour street, Edinburgh, St Cuthberts
William Stewart 34 Head, Tailor, born Edinburgh
Catherine Dall Or Stewart 28 Wife, former servant, born Glasgow
William Stewart 2 Son, born Edinburgh
William Stevenson 12 Nephew, born Edinburgh
Robt Stewart Stevenson 9 Nephew, born Edinburgh
It does not seem right with the other nephew, and age not quite correct.
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Posting a couple of possible? early census records for Mary Gillespie.
1851 census Canongate
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5903db07e9379091b102d897/mary-gillespi-1851-midlothian-canongate-1828-?locale=en
1841 census Canongate
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a15220df4040b9d6e2e9c29/mary-gillespie-1841-midlothian-canongate-1827-?locale=en
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It is difficult to see what became of the family after 1871 census. :-\
Yes, I agree, we really need to hear back from stewart-r.
sorry for the delay - i'm new to the forum so my replies are stuck in "awaiting moderation".
It is difficult to see what became of the family after 1871 census. :-\
Yes, I agree, we really need to hear back from stewart-r.
I wonder if this is William in 1881 census Gilmour street, Edinburgh, St Cuthberts
William Stewart 34 Head, Tailor, born Edinburgh
Catherine Dall Or Stewart 28 Wife, former servant, born Glasgow
William Stewart 2 Son, born Edinburgh
William Stevenson 12 Nephew, born Edinburgh
Robt Stewart Stevenson 9 Nephew, born Edinburgh
It does not seem right with the other nephew, and age not quite correct.
Yeah - I agree. I wonder about this record from 1881 instead:
47 Commercial St, Leith North
Alexander Stevenson 48 Head
Elizabeth Stevenson 47 Wife
William Stevenson 18 Son
James Stevenson 14 Son
Alexander Stevenson 11 Son
Mary Stevenson 7 Daughter
Janet Stevenson 3 Daughter
William Stevenson 13 Nephew
This does list William's place of birth as Tranent though, which wouldn't be right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Following on from Neale1961's post it is possible that the Gillespies were RC. I note the following RC baptisms in St Mary's RC Cathedral, Edinburgh.
Mary Gillespie birth 8 June 1826 bap 2 July 1826 Parents Dick Gillespie and Catherine McBride
James Gillespie birth 20 Feb 1830 bap 2 May 1830 Parents Richard Gillespie and Chaterine McBride (As transcribed)
I cannot see an entry for the William Gillespie identified by Neale in the 1861 census but note there is a possible in the 1871 census.
Walker's Place, 26 Canongate
William Gillespie Mar 51 Combmaker b Ireland
Margaret Gillespie Wife 58 b Cockpen
John Hutton Grandson 12 b Edinburgh
Margaret Ruthven Niece 9 b Edinburgh
There is a possible death for William Gillespie age 51 in 1873 in Canongate RD - Note the mother's maiden name is McBryde.
William
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Re the cause of death on Richard Stevenson's death certificate it may be "imperfect nutrition convulsions".
William
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... I wonder about this record from 1881 instead:
47 Commercial St, Leith North
Alexander Stevenson 48 Head
Elizabeth Stevenson 47 Wife
William Stevenson 18 Son
James Stevenson 14 Son
Alexander Stevenson 11 Son
Mary Stevenson 7 Daughter
Janet Stevenson 3 Daughter
William Stevenson 13 Nephew
This does list William's place of birth as Tranent though, which wouldn't be right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I no longer think this is him. I did a little digging on Alexander & Elizabeth Stevenson and it seems that, whilst Alexander did have a brother named James, this James' age is a long way out (born c.1840) so I don't think he can be my ancestor's Uncle. :(
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Found Mary's death certificate. They moved to Linlithgow.
Not managed to pin them down on the 1881 census yet but got her parents names now so really feel like its progressing. Thanks again to everyone for your help.
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Mother’s name on death cert is probably an error. Information is only as good as the knowledge or memory of the informant.
See reply #12 and #14 for the correct Gillespie parents and Mary’s baptism.
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And James death just a few days later... :(
Neale's excellent point about the parents on the death cert being only as good as the informant's knowledge is particularly well demonstrated on his certificate :-\
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That’s a shame that William knew nothing about his Stevenson grandparents.
These are some possibilities to explore from the census
1841 James STEVENSON ?
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a151f4ef4040b9d6e2bbcbc/james-stevenson-1841-midlothian-st-cuthbert-s-1816-?locale=en
1851 James STEVENSON ?
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5903daffe9379091b102c63d/james-stevenson-1851-midlothian-canongate-1814-?locale=en
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Church burial for Catherine (McBride) Gillespie
GILLESPIE CATHERINE MCBRAID / RICHARD GILLESPIE
62 F 09/11/1848
685/3 350 122 Canongate
And Possible church burial record for Richard
GILLESPIE RICHARD -----
64 M 01/05/1847
685/3 360 623 Canongate