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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Topic started by: Framesmiths1816 on Thursday 30 December 21 20:26 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I would appreciate some help with a block in my tree please.
In the 1841 Census I have a relative living at Neptune Court St Marys Rotherhythe Southwark, South London.
The group is
Peter Lunn Head 67 Labourer F
Lydia Lunn Wife 64 F
Maria daughter 32 Needlework Y
James Son 28 Labourer Y
Ellen Daughter 24 Needlework Y
The full family from all records found to date are
Peter Lunn b1869-1774 to 1844
Lydia b1777
Peter Lun b1800-d1805
Marie Lun b1802-
William James Lund b1806-
Maria Lunn 1809-
James Thomas Lunn b1810-d1888
Thomas George Lunn b1813-
Ellen Lunn b1817-
The 1841 census seems to indicate that Peter and Lydia are not born in the UK and I have not yet found a marriage record for them in the UK or Ireland. There is a slight possibility
one of other of them might be Scandinavian, possibly Norwegian. On 2 other records Peter's occupation is given as "Mariner". Peter is buried 6th October 1844 at St Mary's Rotherhithe. Lydia's death date is unknown.
If anyone has any suggestions about where I might look to find other information or can find them in additional records I would be very grateful.
Thanks you
Mark
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Hi Mark, :)
I noticed your post's slipped off Rootschat's "Home" page without getting a response. (It was still there, but at the foot of the page, when I started on this.) Displayed on the Board only, it may attract less attention so I thought I'd try and help out.
I'm unable to access censuses at the moment and you seem to have been down that road already, together with exploring marriage records in both the UK and Ireland. A fresh pair of eyes taking at look at those could be useful, so I hope someone else comes along and offers to do that. (Or can suggest other avenues to explore, as I do below.) My response should bump your post back to near the top of the Home page, increasing the chances of others replying to your post.
You mentioned a possible Scandinavian connection, maybe Norwegian. As I know nothing about Scandinavian family history resources, I turned to Auntie Google. That's often my first port of call when I need pointers - although posting on Rootschat is just as valid!
NB: The non-Anc**try/FS websites linked to below (the Scandinavian ones - second, fifth, eighth and ninth links) all appear to be in English; but it's possible their records may not be. The records held by Anc**try and any on FS may also not be in English. But there's always Google Translate and Rootschat to help out in that respect.
First, I googled "norwegian family history records". There were other options on the results page (and I only looked at the first page) but I picked these out, as they may be the best place to start:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/norway/ (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/norway/)
https://www.arkivverket.no/en/find-your-ancestors/tracing-your-ancestry (https://www.arkivverket.no/en/find-your-ancestors/tracing-your-ancestry)
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Norway_Genealogy (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Norway_Genealogy)
Next, I googled "swedish family history records". Again, there were other options and these are from just the first results page:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/sweden/ (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/sweden/)
https://www.arkivdigital.net/swedish-genealogy (https://www.arkivdigital.net/swedish-genealogy)
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Sweden_Genealogy (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Sweden_Genealogy)
Finally, I googled "danish family history records" and took these from the first page:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/denmark/ (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/denmark/)
https://www.sa.dk/en/services/records-registries/ (https://www.sa.dk/en/services/records-registries/)
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/ (https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/)
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Denmark_Genealogy (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Denmark_Genealogy)
If the none of the links above lead you to the answer you're seeking, you might wish to try googling "icelandic family history records" and "finnish family history records". Although not Scandinavian countries, Iceland and Finland have close ties with Scandinavia, as you may know, so could possibly have some similar family names.
Rgds,
theirchild
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The 1841 census has very few options for place of origin:
Born in county (NB Not country!)
Not born in county
I for Ireland
S for Scotland
F for Foreign
Censuses are available for all at FamilySearch.org (You need to register; no charges for searches)
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Hi Mark, :)
I noticed your post's slipped off Rootschat's "Home" page without getting a response. (It was still there, but at the foot of the page, when I started on this.) Displayed on the Board only, it may attract less attention so I thought I'd try and help out.
I'm unable to access censuses at the moment and you seem to have been down that road already, together with exploring marriage records in both the UK and Ireland. A fresh pair of eyes taking at look at those could be useful, so I hope someone else comes along and offers to do that. (Or can suggest other avenues to explore, as I do below.) My response should bump your post back to near the top of the Home page, increasing the chances of others replying to your post.
You mentioned a possible Scandinavian connection, maybe Norwegian. As I know nothing about Scandinavian family history resources, I turned to Auntie Google. That's often my first port of call when I need pointers - although posting on Rootschat is just as valid!
NB: The non-Anc**try/FS websites linked to below (the Scandinavian ones - second, fifth, eighth and ninth links) all appear to be in English; but it's possible their records may not be. The records held by Anc**try and any on FS may also not be in English. But there's always Google Translate and Rootschat to help out in that respect.
First, I googled "norwegian family history records". There were other options on the results page (and I only looked at the first page) but I picked these out, as they may the best place to start:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/norway/ (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/norway/)
https://www.arkivverket.no/en/find-your-ancestors/tracing-your-ancestry (https://www.arkivverket.no/en/find-your-ancestors/tracing-your-ancestry)
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Norway_Genealogy (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Norway_Genealogy)
Next, I googled "swedish family history records". Again, there were other options and these are from just the first results page:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/sweden/ (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/sweden/)
https://www.arkivdigital.net/swedish-genealogy (https://www.arkivdigital.net/swedish-genealogy)
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Sweden_Genealogy (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Sweden_Genealogy)
Finally, I googled "danish family history records" and took these from the first page:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/denmark/ (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/places/europe/denmark/)
https://www.sa.dk/en/services/records-registries/ (https://www.sa.dk/en/services/records-registries/)
https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/ (https://www.danishfamilysearch.com/)
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Denmark_Genealogy (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Denmark_Genealogy)
If the none of the links above lead you to the answer you're seeking, you might wish to try googling "icelandic family history records" and "finnish family history records". Although not Scandinavian countries, Iceland and Finland have close ties with Scandinavia, as you may know, so could possibly have some similar family names.
Rgds,
theirchild
Hi therechild,
Thanks for all the links, that is very kind of you. This is why I need another view point because I get so lost in the detail I forget to do the obvious things. I shall check your links out shortly. Thank you.
I also started to wonder about Finland last night as a possibility but I had not yet though of an Icelandic possibility.
The Norwegian link is a hunch simply because my family line that this question relates to has a very large unexplained Norwegian DNA foot print. We can explain all the other ethnicities and know who came from where and why except this Lunn line. Norway maybe be a red herring or a clue. All I can say for sure is that 1841 census seems to imply they are not from Mainland UK.
Manty thanks
Mark
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The 1841 census has very few options for place of origin:
Born in county (NB Not country!)
Not born in county
I for Ireland
S for Scotland
F for Foreign
Censuses are available for all at FamilySearch.org (You need to register; no charges for searches)
Hi Kgarrad,
Yes, I spent a long time thinking it was "I" for Ireland but looking and comparing the hand writing with other pages of the same volume leads me to think that Peter is "F" for Foreign parts". Lydia is harder to tell, could be "F" or could be "I"
Thanks for your reply
Regards
Mark
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I wonder if these events tie in somehow.
A Peter Lewin Bell married a Lydia Cheeseman 15/10/1798 St. Mary, Rotherhithe
Can find no children baptised in name of Bell to a Peter and Lydia.
Then we have a baptism of a William Cheeseman bp.26/10/1800 St. Mary Rotherhithe, son of Peter and Lydia. Again, no other baptisms in name of Cheeseman to a Peter and Lydia.
Seems too much of a coincidence not to mention with all events happening at St. Mary, Rotherhithe where your family were.
Annette
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I wonder if these events tie in somehow.
A Peter Lewin Bell married a Lydia Cheeseman 15/10/1798 St. Mary, Rotherhithe
Can find no children baptised in name of Bell to a Peter and Lydia.
Then we have a baptism of a William Cheeseman bp.26/10/1800 St. Mary Rotherhithe, son of Peter and Lydia. Again, no other baptisms in name of Cheeseman to a Peter and Lydia.
Seems too much of a coincidence not to mention with all events happening at St. Mary, Rotherhithe where your family were.
Annette
Hi Annette7,
Thank you for this bit of intrigue. Your sentence "Seems too much of a coincidence not to mention with all events happening at St. Mary, Rotherhithe where your family were." has my attention. Am I missing a piece of historical back ground from St Mary's Rotherhithe around this date?
I would be greatful if you are able to expand on this or point me to a source of background reading.
Many thanks
Mark
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I was wondering why daughter Maria was baptised at St Peter, Frimley :-\. Was this the point where a name change was made
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Apparently Lunn can be English, Norwegian, or Danish: variant of Lund.
The English variant according to this site:
https://www.houseofnames.com/lunn-family-crest (https://www.houseofnames.com/lunn-family-crest)
is Anglo-Saxon. It is derived from the family living in an area that was referred to as the laund, which was Old Norman word meaning the open space in a forest or the lawn. There were a number of locations in England with this topograghic place-name including Yorkshire and Lancashire.
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Could this possibly be Lydia's death, age ties in nicely with a dob of 1777.
CHEESMAN, LYDIA 80
GRO Reference: 1857 M Quarter in MAIDSTONE Volume 02A Page 260
John
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I think there are census entries that could be the Lydia who died in Maidstone.
There is a baptism for a Liddy Chesman 21 May 1780 at Bisley, daughter of Jethrow and Elizebeth. Bisley is not far from Frimley.
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Info only
Name: Peter Cheeseman
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 27 Aug 1800
Baptism Date: 26 Oct 1800
Baptism Place: St Mary,Rotherhithe,London,England
Father:
Peter Cheeseman
Mother:
Lydia
FHL Film Number: 254545
John
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I think Annette has cracked it ;D.
I think there are census entries that could be the Lydia who died in Maidstone.
There is a baptism for a Liddy Chesman 21 May 1780 at Bisley, daughter of Jethrow and Elizebeth. Bisley is not far from Frimley.
Another good find, :).
Sophia Cheeseman with same parents was baptised at St Peter, Frimley 1 Nov 1788 and an Elizabeth at St Lawrence Chobham 25 May 1785
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Hi everyone,
I am not sure what to make of the Peter Lewin Bell / Lydia Cheeseman references. It maybe that the surname under went spelling changes at this time (c1800). Digging around in the St Mary's Rotherhithe registers I have found a 1770 baptism for a Peter Lawn or Lown (F Peter, M Susanna) plus a 1768 baptism for Sarah Elizabeth Lowne (Lonne) to the same parents. There is also 1766 marriage between Peter Lawn and Susanna Clements. Could the name have morphed from something like Lawn, Lown, Lonne, Lownde to Lun, Lund, Lunn? I still have the puzzle of the 1841 census though that seems to indicate neither Peter or Lydia were from the County and were of "Foreign Parts". The Lewin names turns up a number of people in Newgate for Transportation which could give a reason to want to change a surname perhaps if linked with some bad publicity.
I am going to have to spend sometime thinking about the possibilities.
Thanks
Mark
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Hi everyone,
I have found what appears to be the same family group still living in Neptune Court in the 1851 census. There is definitely something odd going on with the surname.
In 1851 Lydia Lunn is now Lydia Lunnbury aged 70 and born in Trimley ??
The daughter Maria is widowed and has the surname Harwood and is also from Trimley Surrey ??
The Daughter Ellen is now called Eleanor and is married to Thomas Simpson. There is a matching St Marys Baptism 16 Jan 1825 born 17 June 1817 Rotherhithe surname Lunnberry parents Peter and Lydia Lunn-Berry (Mariner)
A grand daughter Mary Ann Lunnbury aged 3 is also listed but I do not know her parents connection yet.
This leaves me wondering the following points.
1. Does Trimley = Frimley ?
2. Does the Peter Lewin Bell marriage match? Lewin-Bell could it be a version of Lunn-Bury/Berry?
Any thoughts?
Regards
Mark
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It's certainly intriguing.
I think Trimley is Frimley. It certainly matches with the baptisms records.
The variants in surname are confusing but everything sort of fits.
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Lunnberry could be an anglicisation of a surname from another language which doesn't easily render into english spelling (doing Welsh research you see rather a lot of that with placenames on censuses!)
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Lydia dies in 1856
Looking at 1861, Mary Ann may be Maria's daughter. They're both with Thomas and Eleanor Simpson, although due to some over enthusiastic use of dittos, they are indexed as Maria Harwood Simpson, widow, and Mary Ann Simpson, niece.
There's a Mary Ann Amelia Harwood registered in Rotherhithe in 1848, but mmn is Gale
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"On 2 other records Peter's occupation is given as "Mariner".
Can you please identify these records.
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How are you descended from Peter and Lydia LUNN?
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"On 2 other records Peter's occupation is given as "Mariner".
Can you please identify these records.
Hi,
One entry is on the 1805 death record of 5 year old Peter Lun St Marys Rotherhithe where it gives the father as Peter Lun Mariner. The second is on the 1843 marriage record of son James Lunn to Elizabeth Nicholls Deptford.
Peter and Lydia are my 5th Great Grandparents.
Regards
Mark
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I spoke with a Norwegian friend who speaks Norwegian, Swedish and Danish He thinks that the most likely Norwegian version of Lunnberry might be Lunberg. The G is silent and "berg" is pronounced as "bear". Lunn in Norwegian is more likely to sound like Lune or Loon to an English person with the N sound like Neh so also together something like Lune-nah-bear. When looking at the Lewin Bell possibility there is a Swedish name Lunbell and a Norwegian name Loewenberg. There is also Lundeberg for the one spelling of Lund.
I am starting to think that the Peter Lewin Bell / Lydia Cheeseman marriage has a connection. The birth of son Peter Cheeseman in 1800 ties with the death of Peter Lun in 1805. Maybe they gave the name as Cheeseman at the baptism because father Peter, being a Mariner, wasn't present. From the 1861 census Lydia Lunnberry seems to come from Frimley even though on the 1841 census it says Foreign parts.
The other possibility I am entertaining is that Peter Lewin Bell maybe hiding his identity. It is possible he might be a returned transported convict. A crime that carried capital punishment.
The time line looks like this so far
1798 Marriage Peter Lewin Bell to Lydia Cheeseman St Marys Rotherhithe
1800 Birth Peter Cheeseman St Marys Rotherhither
1802 Birth Maria Lunn St Peters Frimley
1805 Death Peter Lun St Marys Rotherhithe
1806 Birth William James Lund St Marys Rotherhithe
1809 Maria (Maybe same Maria as 1802 - 1851 census lists her as born in Trimley)
1809 Birth of James Thomas Lunn St Marys Rotherhithe
1813 Birth of Thomas George Lunn St Marys Rotherhithe
1817 Birth of Ellen Lunnbury (Baptised 1825 St Marys Rotherhithe) 1st known use of Lunnbury/Lunnberry
1841 Census family name given as Lunn
1843 James Thomas marries in Deptford surname given as Lunn
1843 Eleanor Lunnbury marries at St James Bermondsey (Father Peter Lunnbury, witnesses sister Maria (Horwood) brother Thomas Lunnbury)
1843 Peter Lunn father dies aged 75 St Marys Rotherhithe
1851 Census Lydia gives names as Lunnberry
1856 Lydia Lunnbury mother dies
I descend from James Thomas and the surname Lunn comes down that line into current usage. Neither Peter or Lydia could write so I am guessing some variation in surname spelling is understandable but a complete change from Lewin Bell to Lun, Lund, Lunn, Lunnbury and Lunnberry is a big surprise.
If anyone one has any other ideas as to why this might have happened then I would like to hear them.
Regards
Mark
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A great summary.
If their names has been more common than Peter & Lydia you wouldn't have got this far.
If Peter was Norwegian and had a strong accent he may have been difficult to understand.
Have you tried looking for Peter's baptism either in UK or Europe?
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A great summary.
If their names has been more common than Peter & Lydia you wouldn't have got this far.
If Peter was Norwegian and had a strong accent he may have been difficult to understand.
Have you tried looking for Peter's baptism either in UK or Europe?
Hi Bearkat,
Yes you are correct, without those names it would have been much harder. I have also found some additional information in the last 24 hours which enable an educated guess at his name.
I am playing a hunch that it is some variation of Peter Nilsen Lundberg.
Peter might be Peter, Peder, Petter or Per
Nilsen might be Nilsen or Neilson
Lundberg could be Lunnberg, Lunberg, Lundberg
Born around 1769 to 1774 . I am starting search Norwegian records but as I only speak / read a very little Norwegian it is slow going.
Regards
Mark
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here's one to add to the list
Maria Lunnbury
William Horwood
Marriage 9 Feb 1835 St Leonard, Shoreditch
Sadly it's a short record with no parents names. Eleanor was one of the witnesses. Both girls made their mark, so probably wouldn;t know if ther name was recorded properly
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here's one to add to the list
Maria Lunnbury
William Horwood
Marriage 9 Feb 1835 St Leonard, Shoreditch
Sadly it's a short record with no parents names. Eleanor was one of the witnesses. Both girls made their mark, so probably wouldn;t know if ther name was recorded properly
Thank you Mabel,
I had been looking for that marriage without success today.
Every bit of info helps.
Regards
Mark
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Peter might be Peter, Peder, Petter or Per
Nilsen might be Nilsen or Neilson
Lundberg could be Lunnberg, Lunberg, Lundberg
Born around 1769 to 1774 . I am starting search Norwegian records but as I only speak / read a very little Norwegian it is slow going.
Regards
Mark
Hi Mark
If you need help with anything Scandinavian just ask, no problem.
Here is for example a Peder Gregersen Lundberg as a ship's captain in Skien 1801. He is single and born 1771:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/58303/35 - nr 160
Ian
Added:
This isn't your Peter btw, unfortunately. He had a family and died in Norway.
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I am playing a hunch that it is some variation of Peter Nilsen Lundberg.
Peter might be Peter, Peder, Petter or Per
Nilsen might be Nilsen or Neilson
Lundberg could be Lunnberg, Lunberg, Lundberg
Born around 1769 to 1774 . I am starting search Norwegian records but as I only speak / read a very little Norwegian it is slow going.
Regards
Mark
Where does the Nilsen come from? Perhaps I missed it somewhere in this thread
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Where does the Nilsen come from? Perhaps I missed it somewhere in this thread
Sorry Bearkat, I did not say where Nilsen came from. Reading the link on the first reply that explains how Norwegian names are made up, they are not hereditary until 1926. So there is a given name Peter, Petter, Peder or Per for example, a patronymic name in the form of father's given name with "sen" added or in the case of girls with "datter" added and a third part is a location which is changeable depending on where the person might consider home to be and could change in their life. Lunn, Lund, Lunberg, Lundberg are such types of location name which might account for why Peter is flexible with it. The only hint of his patronymic name is on one of the wedding certificates of one of his children after his death. He gives his father's names as Peter Nelson Lunnberry. Of course the historic figure of Nelson is widely known after 1805 and it could be possible for someone to hear the names Nilsen or Neilsen perhaps and think they have heard the name Nelson. its a hunch based on this one reference and how Norwegian names should be structured.
Regards
Mark
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The only hint of his patronymic name is on one of the wedding certificates of one of his children after his death. He gives his father's names as Peter Nelson Lunnberry. Of course the historic figure of Nelson is widely known after 1805 and it could be possible for someone to hear the names Nilsen or Neilsen perhaps and think they have heard the name Nelson. its a hunch based on this one reference and how Norwegian names should be structured.
I know how Scandinavian names work, I was just missing the Peter Nelson Lunnberry bit.
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Parish Register entry is for Thomas (George) Lunberry 12th April 1846 St Mary Magdalene Bermondsey to Ann Quick - Father Peter Nelson Lunberry.
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Please could I have opinions on the surname of this Marriage Witness? At first glance I thought it was Thomas but I do not think that is correct. She could be a relation of the grooms mother if my hunch is correct.
https://we.tl/t-hy1RX6jmOR
I am not sure on how attachments work here these days so I have made a download link for a jpg file for a the relevant section of the image.
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I don't think it's Thomas either but it's not easy to read.
Perhaps Thorns/Tharns/Thards ???