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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: wilcoxon on Monday 27 December 21 16:02 GMT (UK)
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https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/300001055-foxhall-newydd-henllan#.YcngVibLepo
I have a Roberts family who were at Fox Hall Newydd from at least 1851 until 1878
22nd June 1878 Wrexham Guardian.
ROBERTS—On the 16th inst. at Foxhall Newydd, Denbigh, aged 63 years, Mr Thomas Roberts, gamekeeper.
If this Fox Hall Newydd was never lived in , where did my family live. .
Thanks
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I'm not sure why you think Foxhall Newydd was never lived in? There's newspaper references to various families living there
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Yes I know that, mine was one of them, but was there another Fox Hall Newydd in the same area. I am only going by what I found. Perhaps cottages or another property. 🤔
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Fox Hall and Foxhall indicate two different types of dwelling ie Fox Hall sounds like one particular building whereas Foxhall sounds more like an area.
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Fox Hall and Foxhall indicate two different types of dwelling ie Fox Hall sounds like one particular building whereas Foxhall sounds more like an area.
This makes sense. Newydd means “new” and Foxhall Newydd is the name of the listed building. In the description, it mentions Foxhall Woods and just plain Foxhall so there are a number of “Foxhalls”.
If I were you I would look at the family on the censuses to see where they were living and who they were living with, as well as the neighbouring residences, which may clarify.
You would normally expect a gamekeeper to live in a cottage on a property.
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I’m confused now.
Looking at the Robert’s family in the 1871 census, they are the only family living at Foxhall Newyd. The neighbouring Foxhall Has another Robert’s (related do you know?) farmer of 330 acres, employing men and servants. Looking at maps it is a much larger residence:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15.92624186187002&lat=53.19569&lon=-3.45044&layers=6&right=ESRIWorld
According to the description, Foxhall Newyd was unfinished and abandoned at the end of the C18 and by the end of the C19 was already ruinous. Not sure what that means for the Robert’s family - perhaps they were living within the ruins or in a cottage in the vicinty? :-\
In the 1861 census I didn’t see any mention of Foxhall Newyd which makes me wonder if it was uninhabited. Thomas Roberts’ address was “Foxhall Bach”. Looking at the Welsh dictionary Bach means lesser or minor. Next address was Foxhall with the same Roberts family as in 1871 living there.
The question is, was Foxhall Bach another name for Foxhall Newydd, or were the Roberts living on the Foxhall estate in a smaller lesser dwelling than Foxhall?
1851:
Thomas Roberts and family are at Foxhall Newyd but Thomas is a labourer and they have a servant in the house.
The Owens family are living next door at Foxhall with many servants.
Then listed separately there is an Evans family also at Foxhall Newyd, with head of family being a gamekeeper.
So no clearer. :-\
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There is a huge amount of detail about Foxhall here:
https://discoveringoldwelshhouses.co.uk/library/Hhistory/den%20106_HH_30_Foxhall.pdf
including mention of your Roberts family starting around page 23/24.
At the top of page 23 is mention of a cottage alongside Foxhall Newyd where in residence in the 1841 census is a Thomas Wynne, Gamekeeper.
I did not read the entire book, but to me it is still not fully clear if the listed ruin known as Foxhall Newyd was the home of your Roberts family or if Foxhall Newyd was the name of the estate, and they lived in a cottage on that estate. That seems to make more sense to me. The book confirms that Foxhall Bach and Foxhall Newyd are one and the same.
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Thanks.
A bit about Thomas and the local copper in court
Not neccessarily in the right order.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3599385/3599392/39/
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3599394/3599402/59/
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Can you clarify where you discovered "never lived in?".
The link in your post 1 mentions "... never completed ..." but goes on to say "... The finished section was, however, fully fitted out and inhabited ...".
There is a gamekeeper occupying "Foxhall Newydd" in '81.
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Re. the "newydd" -
"With regard to the ruin of Foxhall, vol iv page 69, it would appear from Pennant that it is only one wing of a design of John Panton, Recorder of Denbighshire and M.P., 1592 and 1601, and that it was afterwards bought by the Rosendales of the true or old Foxhall, adjoining"
(Archaelogia Cambrensis, 1 Jan 1853)
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Can you clarify where you discovered "never lived in?".
The link in your post 1 mentions "... never completed ..." but goes on to say "... The finished section was, however, fully fitted out and inhabited ...".
There is a gamekeeper occupying "Foxhall Newydd" in '81.
Presumably the description in the Listed Buildings link, led to the assumption that Foxhall wasn’t lived in despite the mention of a finished section: Foxhall Newyd was unfinished and abandoned at the end of the C18 and by the end of the C19 was already ruinous. This does imply Foxhall Newyd was a ruin at the time that the Robert’s were living there. :-\
Slightly contradictory info perhaps led to confusion?
There is also mention in my link discoveringoldwelshhoises of a cottage alongside Foxhall Newyd where a gamekeeper is living in the 1841 census.
Initially, before looking into it further, I thought it odd that a gamekeeper would be housed in such a huge place, but if it was unfinished and in bad order, perhaps they would have been …. Either that or they lived in the adjoining cottage?
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I found Foxhall on Welsh Tithe Maps, but can't find a corresponding plot number.
The buildings don't seem to be the abandoned building which could be to the right.
Attachment waiting approval
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Just had a session on Tithe maps - but not looking for Foxhall.
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Found a Foxhall - plot no. 1353.
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Yep, same as me 🙂
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The owner is Miss Harriet Myddleton, occupier Owen Griffith.
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when the estate was sold in 1909 there were a number of buildings
Lodge Farm - 443 acres, dairy and stock
Foxhall - dairy and stock farm
Foxhall Newydd - includes timber and shooting
Older fine houses that had fallen on hard times were sometimes rented out to locals. I seem to remember St Fagans Castle outside Cardiff (a Tudor fortified house) was acquired by various families through marriage and not occuied as a main home. It was occupied by a local farm in a tumbledown unitl the mid 19th century when the Earl of Plymouth decided he needed somewhere to stay when visiting his south Wales holdings which were now making him lots of money because they had coal underneath them and remembered he owned this old manor house
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Removed
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Removed.
Sorry, not sure what happened with those last two posts - I didn’t reply but somehow there were two posts by me just quoting myself. Odd. Removed.
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I know I come late to this conversation… I am descended from Thomas and Ermine Roberts. They lived in the Game Keepers cottage on Foxhall Newydd farm. They are buried at the church in Henllan. Their headstones are leaning against the wall of the church.
When I visited the farm the gamekeepers cottage was totally renovated and lived in by a local. The farm was a diary farm and do know the farmers name somewhere. It was also owned at some point by a Roberts who actually stared in on the buses. Henllan is a lovey village with a great pub for lunch and friendly locals who are more than happy to share!
Thomas and Ermine had at 4 sons and unsure how many daughter because I’m going from memory. And as the sons get older, one son Edward moves out to be a games keeper at Crest(unsure where this is in Henllan) one son Robert moves to Canada and another son John marries someone from Bristol and moves to West derby
I’m descended from John and Isabella
John and Isabella’s first child Ermine is brought up by their grandparent’s Thomas and Ermine.