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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: davisd on Friday 24 December 21 20:18 GMT (UK)
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I've been researching my gr great grandparents who lived in early 19th c Würtemberg and can find all sorts of records for the couple and their parents and their children - however one thing I cannot find is a marriage ca 1836. Now, the man was born and died as a Catholic and the woman was born and died as a Lutheran. The children all had Lutheran baptisms. Is it possible their marriage was clandestine? He worked in the royal court for a Lutheran king if that matters.
I know she was also rather pious so it seems they wouldn't have just copulated. Though stranger things have happened.
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That is quite progressive, the children would have been recorded as base born (or something) if it wasn't a legal marriage. I would think their would be a marriage contract somewhere!
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That is quite progressive, the children would have been recorded as base born (or something) if it wasn't a legal marriage. I would think their would be a marriage contract somewhere!
Thank you for pointing that out - in fact I have now checked every baptismal certificate for their six children born over a period of ten years 1837-1847 and they were all listed as illegitimate. It's quite a shock, but one supposes they were very progressive!
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My gt. grandfather was born June 1854 in Steinlah, Hanover, a few months after his parents married.
At first glance it looked like he was the oldest of six siblings to the couple, but, in fact, he was the first legitimate child - there being several illigitimate babies born before him.
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It could be worth looking for a marriage later on. I have several examples in my family where the partners were both Catholic and eventually married after a few children came along.
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you would. usually take on the religion of the ruler. where you were....obviously that meant some areas remained catholic or protestant all the time..whereas conflict areas changed fairly often...mixed marriages in border areas were more common than one might think
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Many thanks for these observations. I think there was something preventing them from marrying, family or religious pressures. He was in the military so it's possible he was away a great deal and they kept putting it off. But as mentioned above all the children were listed as illegitimate over a period of ten years so it's not just a clerical error!
I can't read the German schrift of the time well at all - I can only make educated guesses from time to time but there is a note on the "family table" mentioning that the first child was by someone and that's crossed out and that the remaining five were of one (my gr gr grandfather's) father. If anyone here reads schrift I'd love to know what the note says.
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If anyone here reads schrift I'd love to know what the note says.
If you post it here, we may be able to help you.
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If anyone here reads schrift I'd love to know what the note says.
If you post it here, we may be able to help you.
Here it is. Her name was Johanna Catharina Schneider - what follows that I can't read. Then below her first daughter is Catharina Friederika Bertha 1837 19 December below which is the mysterious sentence crossed out followed by the name of my gr great grandfather August D'Ambly then listing his five other children by Johanna.
Any assistance at all would be very welcome!
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It could be worth looking for a marriage later on. I have several examples in my family where the partners were both Catholic and eventually married after a few children came along.
I'd recommend that too.
I was lucky that the local vicar listed his parishioners in what was known as a "people count" Most other local vicars listed the buildings and perhaps the local dignitaries but only gave a number of parishioners living locally.
What was noticeable about my gt. gt. grandparents was that they didn't live with their own parents. Sophia lived with the single womenin Gross Mahner and her beau lived with the single men. Their children lived in Flachstockheim with the maternal grandparents. It seemed to me that they had to wait to get married until a house became vacant for them to rent
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Johanna Catharina Schneider (ihr erster spur(ius) hier nicht aufgeführt
ist nicht hier geborn. u.(nd) früh gestorben)
1. Catharina Friederika Bertha 1837 19 Dec(ember)
P Gutsarbeiter Karl Theod(or) Andrae, angeblich
Die Folgende Kinder alle hier von Regimentsthierarzt im II ten Regiment
August D'ambly kathol(isch) / 3286 ??
2. August Ernst 1839, 11 Nov
3. Ernestine Louise 1840, 21 Dec
4. Pauline Maria 1843, 25 Aug
5. Carl Alexander 1844, 18 Juli
6. Maximilian Hugo 1846, 17 Nov
Johanna Catharina Schneider (her first illegitimat, not listet here, not born here and died early.
1. Catharina Friederika Bertha 1837 19 Dec(ember)
P estate worker Karl Theod(or) Andrae, allegedly
The following children all here from the regimental vet from the IInd Regiment
August D'ambly catholic / 3286
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spurius
Dave
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davecapps, Many thanks that clarifies things! You are most kind. I am thrilled to have this! I noted the word spur and wondered how it was used.
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I do know that he was a great reader of Goethe, Schiller and Heine. Would that indicate progressive ideas and a less strict approach to marriage and children? Both her and his families were middle class so it is a wonderment they never married. H died very young and only a year after his last child was born.
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@davecapps: thank you for your transcription. I tried it myself, but didn't manage to decipher everything. Thanks to your contribution I can improve my skills on this. It's not always the topic starter alone that benefits from the 'work' done here! ;)
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@davecapps: thank you for your transcription. I tried it myself, but didn't manage to decipher everything. Thanks to your contribution I can improve my skills on this. It's not always the topic starter alone that benefits from the 'work' done here! ;)
Yes indeed!
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@davecapps: thank you for your transcription. I tried it myself, but didn't manage to decipher everything. Thanks to your contribution I can improve my skills on this. It's not always the topic starter alone that benefits from the 'work' done here! ;)
Yes indeed!
Hi Zefiro
I also needed help on a couple of words.
This is what its all about.
Helping each other
Dave
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I come back to this relationship as it is seminal to my family's story. You have clarified evidence that my great great grandparents were not married, He was Catholic and she Lutheran (whether that had anything to do with it or not I do not know. You read the schrift for me explaining that in fact he was already married to a Catholic woman far away in Hannover while my gr great grandmother lived in Stuttgart (where he also apparently lived).
Trying to understand this Lutheran unmarried mother I've gone back to the birth certificate for her first daughter by another man (Carl Theodor Andrä) in 1837. The writing is sloppy, but I wonder if either of you gentlemen can glean anything from what is says about the mother 'Johanna Schneider'?
I notice that while most baptisms in this era seem to have numerous sponsors in each case with her six children there are only two. I know her mother died when she was 9 and her father when she was 14. She left her Lutheran prayerbook with an inscription about the 'beloved father of my children'.
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I can add part of the baptismal certificate of another child this one has a bit more verbiage around her name and the father listed as August D'Ambly that perhaps is descriptive?
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Catharina
Friederika
Bertha
spur(ius)
Mutter: Johanna Schneider
w(eiland) Johann Sch(neider) Thierarts T.(ochter)
Thierarts is a misspelling of Tierarzt
Ang(eblich) Vater: Carl Theo(or) Andrae
Gutsarbeiter
--------------------------------
Catharina
Friederika
Bertha
illegitimate
Mother: Johanna Schneider
Daughter of the deceased vet Johann Sch(neider)
alleged father. the estate worker Karl Theod(or) Andrae
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Thank you @davecapps! That her father was a vet is intriguing as the man by whom she bore five children was a vet!
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Hi
just had another look at this and i was missreading this
It should be Thorwart (City gate guard) and not Thierarzt
sorry, didn´t have my specs on
Dave
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Aha! That is different! His marriage certificate says he's a Schumachermeister - so also different.
Thank you!
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Well I'm back about the same woman, ,my paternal great great grandmother Johanne Catherine Schneider b 1813 daughter of Johann Andreas Schneider.
These notes appear on the page which establishes her six illegitimate children. I wonder these notes refer to?
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Ausgewandert nach Nordamerica
1848 / s(amt) Kinder.
P
Emmigrated to Northamerica
1848 / inculding children
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Ausgewandert nach Nordamerica
1848 / s(amt) Kinder.
P
Emmigrated to Northamerica
1848 / inculding children
Exactly correct! Thank you - someone knew them well enough to know their whereabouts. Poor widowed Johanne took her six small children to Philadelphia where she promptly died of consumption leaving them orphans. But they all made it and made lives for themselves.
Thank you again so much.
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I have a poor scan of a marriage document between Johann Michael Knäyer and Emilie Carolina Christiana Damblÿ. dated 1866. While I know those names, some of the rest is unclear. The bride's mother appears to be Carolina Damblÿ and then it says something something Dambly in Stuttgart. Can anyone here tease out what that might be?
It's a rare name and as my own forebears lived in Stuttgart at this period, I'd like t place this mother and daughter. It does not appear to have the father of the bride listed, so perhaps I'm dealing with another out of wedlock child?
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she was born out of wedlock
unehliche lediger Tochter des Karoline Dambly
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS43-5Q9P-3?cc=3015626&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQPDD-L71C
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she was born out of wedlock
unehliche lediger Tochter des Karoline Dambly
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS43-5Q9P-3?cc=3015626&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQPDD-L71C
Thank you, as I imagined, but I was unable to read that poor scan. I have now found Caroline's parents and she is the sister to my philandering great great grandfather.
You are very kind!