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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Bluetaffeta on Wednesday 15 December 21 04:49 GMT (UK)
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Hello, just wondering if anyone that is/has researched Edgar Spooner King could help/answer some questions.
I'm new to this so I might not ask in the correct way, so please forgive me.
I am descended from Edgar's youngest son, John King (my great grandfather).
No one in my side had any idea about the Spooner name, all a bit of a shock.
Anyway to my questions
1. Does anyone have any information about how many times/years Edgar and his family/ies spent in Liverpool Road Workhouse, Islington?
2. Has an 1861 census turned up anywhere?
3. Has Edgar's birth/baptism been found? If not how can we be sure Michael Spooner is his father?
I only question this because Michael was not a witness at any of Edgar's marriages, and there is no other evidence to tie their names together.
And I have found looking at someone else tree the absent or deceased father on the marriage might not actually be the father.
He could have been illegitimate and Michael Spooner could have just been his teacher.
Thanks for your help
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Marriage of Edgar Spooner King (Widower) to Elizabeth Janette Morgan on July 12, 1863 has Edgar's father as Michael Thomas King, a tailor as was Edgar. Address given as South Hackney.
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Welcome to rootschat
2. Has an 1861 census turned up anywhere?
There are quite a few areas 'missing' from the 1861 census - Islington is mentioned on the list
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r45/
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Marriage of Edgar Spooner King (Widower) to Elizabeth Janette Morgan on July 12, 1863 has Edgar's father as Michael Thomas King, a tailor as was Edgar. Address given as South Hackney.
Something to consider perhaps?
Edgar Spooner married Jannot Saunders, marriage registered September quarter 1840, Bloomsbury District, Volume 1, Page 78
June 11th 1849, St John's Church, Clerkenwell
Edgar Spooner, Full Age, Widower, a Tailor, of Brewer Street, father Michael Spooner, a Tailor
married
Elizabeth Escott, 20 years, Spinster, of Brewer Street, father Thomas Escott, a Shoemaker
Witnesses: Thomas Escott and Elizabeth Escott
July 12th 1863, St John of Jerusalem Church, South Hackney
Edgar Spooner King, Full Age, Widower, a Tailor, of South Hackney, father Michael Thomas King, a Tailor
married
Eliza Janette Morgan, Full Age, Spinster, of South Hackney, father George Morgan, a Glass Cutter
Witnesses: Rollason(?) Morgan and Magdalene Morgan
To confirm the 1840 marriage is Edgar Spooner King, the certificate is needed to see the name of his father.
Just found the marriage certificate for the 1840 marriage :
27th July 1840, St George's Church, Bloomsbury
Edgar Spooner, Full Age, Bachelor, a Tailor, of 24 New North Street, father Michael Spooner, a Tailor
married
Jannot Saunders, a Minor, Spinster, of 24 New North Street, father James Saunders, a Tailor
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1851 census has Edgar Spooner 38 occ tailor b City of London - wife Elizabeth
1871 has Edgar King 58 occ tailor b City of London - wife Eliza
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Something to consider perhaps?
Edgar Spooner married Jannot Saunders, marriage registered September quarter 1840, Bloomsbury District, Volume 1, Page 78
That marriage has Edgar as a Bachelor - father Michael Spooner - both have the occupation Tailor
Sorry Allan for duplicating, I see you have added the information to the end of your post
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Marriage St John Clerkenwell 11.6.1849
Edgar Spooner widower full age occ tailor x father Michael occ tailor
Elizabeth Escott 20 spinster father Thomas x shoe maker
Witnesses Thomas & Elizabeth Escott
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SPOONER, EDGAR - ESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1850 June Quarter in THE ISLINGTON DISTRICT Volume 03 Page 293
SPOONER, MATTHEW ABRAHAM - ESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1851 Sep Quarter in ST JAMES CLERKENWELL Volume 03 Page 138
SPOONER, FRANCIS - ESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1854 Dec Quarter in CLERKENWELL Volume 01B Page 463
SPOONER, THOMAS ESCOTT ESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1857 June Quarter in CLERKENWELL Volume 01B Page 485
SPOONER, ELIZABETH HOLLAND ESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1858 Dec Quarter in SAINT LUKE MIDDLESEX Volume 01B Page 557
SPOONER, JOHN ESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1861 Mar Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 4
From this it looks as though they had moved house by the 1861 census.
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SPOONER, JOHN ESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1861 Mar Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 4
The 1861 Census shows that he was in the work house by himself:
John Spoohan, age 3/12, born: Southwark in the House, civil parish Southwark Christchurch
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SPOONER, JOHN ESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1861 Mar Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 4
The 1861 Census shows that he was in the work house by himself:
John Spoohan, age 3/12, born: Southwark in the House, civil parish Southwark Christchurch
Beat me to posting that :). The entry has 'Deserted'
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Shoreditch Observer 28 April 1860
Notice
Elizabeth Escott Spooner, wife of Edgar Spooner, having absconded (3rd time) 9th day of April, 1860, from her 3 children (under 6 years of age), her husband, residing 21 Rose Street, William Street, Curtain Road, hereby gives notice that he will not be answerable for any debts she may contract.
Signed: Edgar Spooner
Witness: Mary Spooner
April 23, 1860
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Shoreditch Observer 31 March 1860
Notice
Elizabeth Escott Spooner, wife of Edgar Spooner, having absconded (2nd time) 9th day of January, 1860, from her 3 children (under 6 years of age), her husband, residing 12 New Norfolk Street, Curtain Road, hereby gives notice that he will not be answerable for any debts she may contract.
Signed: Edgar Spooner
Witness: Joseph Smith
March 7, 1860
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So who was the father of young John born 1861 :o
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So who was the father of young John born 1861 :o
Not Edgar :-\
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In 1841 Edgar was with wife Jeanette and daughter Louisa. Edgars age given as 24
H0107/670 /9 folio 10 page 12.
He seems to have been in the workhouse a few times prior to 1861.
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Can't say why Edgar Spooner became Edgar Spooner King (perhaps to 'escape' wife number 2, Elizabeth Escott, but I can say that a daughter of his first marriage to Jannot SAUNDERS was as follows:-
First name(s):- Louisa Mary KING
Last name:- Spooner
District Holborn
Volume 2
Page 121
Birth year 1841
Birth quarter 2
Mother's maiden name:- SAUNDERS
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This could be Edgar's father in the 1851 Census (HO 107/1531; Folio 91; Page 42)
4 Talbot Court, St Andrew Hubbard, City of London
Michael Spooner; Head; Unmarried; age 63; Tailor; born Essex, Colchester
ADDED
Baptism for Edgar's father ?
Michael Thomas Spooner, baptised 11 November 1785, Colchester. Father - Joseph Spooner; Mother - Mary (nee Knopp)
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Thank you so much for the replies, I had found the marriages and the census plus the one for Michael Spooner in 1851.
Thank you for the 1861 information, I wonder where his children were?
I was just querying, if this is really his father, can we be sure it's him without a baptism/birth.
I only question what Edgar said in his marriages as to who his father was.
I have seen blatant lies written on other marriage licenses,
Example - my partners tree I was looking at, his great grandmother's marriage, she has stated her deceased father was a solicitor- in fact through the census he was a clerk. She also lied about where she was born.
Also with another in his tree -(could not find a birth for him) on a marriage was stated a certain father with the correct profession,
After quite a bit of searching for this father, (yes, there were a few with the correct name), I came across a Poor Law settlement and a removal order (for the son without a baptism), the mother with the correct surname and three correct children, and the removal order stating the eldest son (the one I was tracing) was illegitimate.
Looking for this mother and children I found her in the next census married to someone else with two new children and the three boys. The new husband had the occupation that the son I was looking at had taken up.
So I tend to be a little on the skeptical side if there is only one person telling the story - so to speak.
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You are right to doubt the information on a marriage certificate as no proof would have been needed. My gt grandfather who was illegitimate 'invented' his father on his marriage but I did have his baptism so knew it was wrong. I would not rule out the name Michael though without further research.
Edgar was constant with the name Michael though he only mentioned 'Michael Thomas Spooner' once. I would be concentrating on looking for any baptisms of an Edgar in the time/place we have, it is possible he was born to a single mother who later married a Spooner. :-\
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Rough settlement exam for Edgar Spooner, 6 Nov 1847, Islington
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/32966_625537_0384-00205
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how can we be sure Michael Spooner is his father?
There is a note in the 1847 settlement exam
Father at Talbot Ct Eastcheap
This could be Edgar's father in the 1851 Census (HO 107/1531; Folio 91; Page 42)
4 Talbot Court, St Andrew Hubbard, City of London
Michael Spooner; Head; Unmarried; age 63; Tailor; born Essex, Colchester
Is a half brother mentioned as well? :-\
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There are quite a few old threads on here about Edgar Spooner / King / Michael Spooner
Baptism lookup request - Edgar Spooner
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=672872.0
Michael Spooner, born circa 1787
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=743750.0
Baptism of Edgar Spooner, circa 1815
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744901.0
Thomas Joseph King Spooner
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802997.0
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Rough settlement exam for Edgar Spooner, 6 Nov 1847, Islington
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1557/images/32966_625537_0384-00205
Well found -- I failed to find this when I was searching the other day. Entry in margin about his father ties in with the 1851 Census.
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Is a half brother mentioned as well? :-\
1851 Census for Michael Spooner records that he was by himself.
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Just to add a little bit of humour to this thread, when I found the newspaper article from 1860 I chuckled when I read the advert immediately above it. It reads:
Marriage
A Gentleman wishes to meet with a Respectable Young Woman who has Lost a Leg - Address to Mr James, Post Office, Finsbury Pavement.
I wonder if she ever found her leg.
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I dont know if she found her leg, but ...
I wonder if she was ...
A Miss Peggy Legge.... 8)
JM in NSW Australia sharing my husband's comment after I read AllanUK's fantastic newspaper cutting.
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Thank you for the 1861 information, I wonder where his children were?
I take it you're asking about Edgar's children in 1861? If so...
Possible deaths of children from 1st and 2nd marriages:
GRO references:
1841 Q3 Death - Louisa Mary King Spooner; age 0 (born c1841); Holborn; 02; 84
1848 Q1 Death - Phillis Spooner; age 4 (born c1844); Croydon; 04; 95
1850 Q2 Death - Edgar Spooner; age 0 (born c1850); Islington; 03; 175
1852 Q2 Death - Matthew Abraham Spooner; age 0 (born c1852); Islington; 01B; 140
1862 Q3 Death - Elizabeth Spooner; age 3 (born c1859); St James's Westminster; 01A; 246
Possible 1861 census records for Edgar's other surviving children:
1861 Hornsey Road, Neville Terrace, Islington
Mary Spooner; servant; aged 18; born c1843 Westminster
Ref RG09; Piece 151; Folio 20; Page 44; Schedule 213
1861 Workhouse, St Leonard, Shoreditch
Elizabeth Spooner; aged 2; born c1859; deserted
Ref RG09; Piece 247; Folio 170; Page 24; Schedule 7
1861 Shoreditch Industrial School, Billericay, Essex
Frank Spooner; aged 7; born c1854 Shoreditch
Thomas Spooner; aged 4; born c1857 Shoreditch
Ref RG09; Piece 1075; Folio 170; Page 10; Schedule 14
I'm assuming Frank is Francis.
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So who was the father of young John born 1861 :o
Not Edgar :-\
Edgar could still be the father if Edgar and Elizabeth were still a couple (of sorts) in late April 1860. John's birth looks to be very early 1861, or possibly late 1860, so the dates still fit.
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I was recently contacted by a distant and most helpful relative who has supplied details of the last years of Edgar Spooner(who now just used Edgar King as his name), apparently after the death of his 3rd wife he emigrated to Auckland, New Zealand on the 2nd January 1882 arriving on the ship "Wellington", he was followed there later by some of his children, Mary, Francis and Theresa. He started work by opening a small Sarsaparilla drinks store which was viewed back then as a health tonic before returning to his earlier trade of tailor/cutter, he died tragically in 1884 in his 72nd year after falling off the Otakia bridge over the river Taieri subsequently drowning, he was on his way to meet his family prior to catching a ship back to Auckland....
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So who was the father of young John born 1861 :o
Not Edgar :-\
Edgar could still be the father if Edgar and Elizabeth were still a couple (of sorts) in late April 1860. John's birth looks to be very early 1861, or possibly late 1860, so the dates still fit.
Edgar WAS the father.
Elizabeth (my great x3 grandmother ... I am descended from Thomas) arrived at the workhouse in labour on 1 January 1861 ... so it was indeed VERY early in 1861. He was born on 1 January 1861 (and died in the workhouse before the year was out, poor mite) so he was conceived before she absconded for the third time.
What's always introgued me on this one is that as soon as Elizabeth was discharged from the workhouse, the very first thing she did was to go and register his birth ... in CLERKENWELL! (Discharge and registration both on 17 January 1861.)
Why oh why did she taken her baby across the river and go all the way to Clerkenwell to register his birth?
I can only think that she had no idea where to find the registrar in Southwark, but knew very well where to find the one in Clerkenwell.
Either way ... 17 January 1861 is the very last sighting I have of my great x3 grandmother Elizabeth Spooner nee Escott.
I'm still trying to figure out what became of her after that. I can give a very good account of the rest of Edgar's life (thanks to much amazing assistance given on this site) ... and of 15 of his 16 children (one still to be fully accounted for ... but we're getting there). But Elizabeth is still a mystery ...