RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: msharawira on Tuesday 30 November 21 14:52 GMT (UK)
-
Hello everyone
My father's Stewart's come from Perthshire, specifically Clunie in 1770, and possibly Caputh (1745).
(I accidentally replied to an old 2017 post yesterday in my enthusiasm).
Is anyone currently exploring Stewarts from that region? My family is really stuck on an elusive James. He is the father of William born Clunie 1770, m Isobel Dow; John born Clunie 1772 m Amelia Jackson, died Ontario; (I saw a 2017 thread about him), David born Clunie 1774; Janet born Clunie 1779. My direct ancestor is William born in Clunie 1770. Would love some help with identifying their father etc. Thanks so much every one.
-
I note the 1770 baptism of William father James, however if I have the correct family for William below, I wonder how you established James was his father?
WILLIAM STEWART Married ISOBEL DOW 11/05/1796 Caputh
Children of WILLIAM STEWART & ISABEL DOW/E
Clunie - JANET 1798, Unknown 1801, ELISABETH 1803……….. WILLIAM 1817
Auchtergaven – PETER 1809, WILLIAM 1811
Colin
-
William Stewart born 26/07/1770 Clunie.
Other children listed as being from a James Stewart:
Margaret 19/02/1768
John 02/08/1772
David 28/04/1774
Moving the dates back a bit there is:
Andrew 15/01/1764
Alexander 05/03/1763
Then there is a child with no first name listed ... but it lists a mother:
STEWART -----
JAMES STEWART/MARGARET ANDERSON
U
08/08/1760
Not certain of course that this is your James Stewart...but worth looking into.
Also... a James Stewart married in Caputh in 1755
STEWART
JAMES
ANNA STIRTAN/
07/03/1755
-
Alan, that is fantastic, thank you. For some reason it never occurred to us to move the dates back a bit.
I had seen the James Stewart/Margaret Anderson marriage but thought it was too early. These additional children would explain that.
I have also see a James Stewart born in Caputh in 1745, but couldn't tie him to anything. Of course he would only be 15 in 1960 so clearly not him.
I am off to explore those additional children of James Stewart. Thank you!
Makere
-
Possibly Andrew's death...
Surname
STEWART
Forename
ANDREW
Parents/ Other Details
-----
Age
68
Gender
M
Date
22/03/1828
Parish Number
469/
Ref
50 156
Parish
Airth
-
Alan I found Margaret and Andrew's birth certificates on ScotlandsPeople (not that I can decipher them to see whether James is "of Westergourdie", unfortunately, but not Alexander, so far, or the James Stewart/Margaret Anderson child. Sometimes I wonder if my search terms are not right. I will keep looking, and for the death of Andrew. Thank you so much. We have been looking for this James for several decades and have renewed our search, now that we ourselves have become so much older.
-
Andrew 1764's baptism cert is very hard to read. Its the entry near the top and only says:
Andrew Stewart: John Stewart had a son baptized named Andrew
-
William Stewart born 26/07/1770 Clunie.
Other children listed as being from a James Stewart:
Moving the dates back a bit there is:
Alexander 05/03/1763
Then there is a child with no first name listed ... but it lists a mother:
STEWART -----
JAMES STEWART/MARGARET ANDERSON
U
08/08/1760
STEWART
This may be a strange coincidence?
WILLIAM STEWART JAMES STEWART/MARGARET ANDERSON 01/08/1760
Lethendy and Kinloch
Note the date.
ALEXANDER STEWART JAMES STEWART/MARGARET ANDERSON 05/03/1763
Lethendy and Kinloch
Colin
-
This could be Margaret's marriage:
STEWART
MARGARET
JAMES MACDONALD/
15/04/1798
339/
10 365
Clunie
-
Names of Stewart men having children in Caputh 1740's (possibly James is amongst the kids):
James to a John Stewart 22/05/1748
James to a Robert 26/05/1745
Other Caputh Stewart fathers:
Gilbert
Duncan
Donald
Robert and John have the most kids and both have a son James of approx the right age.
-
Sites like Wikitree say Robert is the father of James...
Research Notes
see also Robert Stewart who had James Stewart christened August 5, 1744, Callander. Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 Birth 1 August 1744 Christening 5 August 1744 Callander, Perthshire, Scotland, United Kingdom Father:Robert Stewart Mother:Mary Stewart Accessed 28 November 2021. [2]
But... must be taken with grains of salt and only used as a possible lead.
https://tinyurl.com/2p98d64u
-
ah...Aaccording to my older sister who has better eyesight, the father of Margaret Stewart is described on the baptism certificate as James Stewart of Wester Formath. LDS records and Ancestry unhelpfully described it as Jas.
I cannot find a map showing West Formath. Wester Gourdie now exists as an industrial development near Clunie. I am a bit cautious about assuming that for a year or two James Stewart relocated to Wester Formath, since Ive no idea where it is.
The marriage is intriguing. Well, it is all intriguing! If anyone is interested I do have a copy of the OPRs for Clunie (am totally unable to read most of them) but there is a big gap at one point due to a church fire.
-
If James Stewart of WesterGourdie, father of William, John, David and Janet, is also the father of Margaret (while living in Wester Formath) and Andrew, then being born in 1745 puts him at 15 when Margaret was born.
So either Margaret and James have a different father or the James born in 1745 is not their's.
I am surprised at the apparent lack of James Stewart's born in Clunie during that period.
When a baptism certificate says eg James Stewart in Wester Gourdie or Wester Formath, my assumption is that they are living there and that the child is taken to Clunie Church for baptism. Would that be correct? Clunie Parish covers a large area, however there is/was also a Clunie village, as I understand it?
-
Here's Goudrie on the old maps:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=56.56206&lon=-3.43193&layers=3&b=1
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=56.56158&lon=-3.50287&layers=123969245&b=1
Over Forneth is close to Clunie (you might have to zoom in on these)
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=56.57812&lon=-3.45692&layers=123969245&b=1
Fornaith
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=56.58271&lon=-3.45460&layers=3&b=1
On the 1750 old map you see that Gourdie is very close to Cluny and Fornaith. It is directly above Fornaith and tthe map barely moves when you search for each...
The crofting site West Fornaith is just above Fornaith (which is on the shore of Loch Cluny)
-
There was a James Stewart born in 1751 in west Gourdie that would have been 19 for the birth of William 1770.
STEWART
JAMES FITZ EDWA
CHARLES STEWART/
M
20/12/1751
339/
10 254
Clunie
-
This is so great, Alan, thank you for the map! Re 1751 James son of Charles. we found him a few years ago but as he seems never to have got married, had children, or died as far as we can see, we ditched him. Also we were advised that the 'Fitz' prefix generally denotes people of significance/landowners etc.. we had long since concluded that we are descended from solid working class weavers and toilers :)
-
Does it say any clues on the birth of William 1770 or any other children where James Stewart was from? How is he with certainty tied to Caputh?
-
you are right Alan, William, John, Janet and David are not tied to Caputh as their certificates all say James Stewart in Wester Gourdie. Margaret and Andrew's dont say that. so the only James Stewart that we have found born in Clunie at that time was the FitzEdward one. I am trying to recall what time the gap is in the OPR records because of the church fire at Clunie. It was the archivist in Perth who told me that. I will check emails and see if I have that. it might potentially help to explain why we can't find any other James born Clunie in that period.?
-
So there is zero certainty about Caputh.. it just seemed to be the closest...
-
Well there are some things you can do. One is to compare all the kids names. Kids belonging to James, kids belonging to William...and his siblings kids. There could be clues in the repeating of names such as William's children Christian and Peter etc.
Another angle is to compare DNA to the person on wikitree claiming to be a DNA relative of James Stewart. Have you got your DNA done?
Here's who you would be comparing DNA with:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stewart-30737
You could join the site , then once a member private-message the James Stewart relative that runs that wiki page. You could introduce yourself and ask for any info on James Stewart.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stewart-29510
It would be interesting to see if they had some sources for James being born in Caputh to a Robert and marrying an Anderson etc. I'm quite sure at least one of Jame's kids married in Caputh ... Will recheck that and report.
Let me know if you have ancestry DNA or similar...
William and Isobel also had a son named Peter that the wikitree site does not mention:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stewart-30742
STEWART
PETER
WILLIAM STEWART/ISABEL DOWE
M
23/07/1809
330/
10 179
Auchtergaven
Auchtergaven: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=56.49615&lon=-3.55079&layers=5&b=1
William was born in Clunie and later had his child Janet there in . Then had Christian later in 1807.
STEWART
CHRISTIAN
WILLM. STEWART/ISABEL DOW
F
04/07/1807
339/
10 341
Clunie
-
That’s fantastic. My sister has hers done. She uploaded it on WikiTree to William born 1770.will absolutely follow all this up. Thank you again.
-
It looks like Janet 1798 might have died in Caputh...
STEWART
JANET
67
DOW
1867
337/ 32
Caputh
-
Not sure that Janet is your relative, just a guess due to mother Dow and the dates.
I see there is an Isabella as well , born 1806
STEWART
ISABELLA
73
DOW
1881
337/ 3
Caputh
-
Hold the phone... I just discovered something potentially interesting. Not sure if you've seen this before.
There are two different William Stewarts marrying Isabel Dows.
One is in Clunie:
STEWART
WILLIAM
ISABEL DOW/
08/05/1796
339/
10 363
Clunie
The other is same year different date , in Caputh
STEWART
WILLIAM
ISOBEL DOW/
11/05/1796
337/
20 264
Caputh
Wondering you have compared these two documents?
Also I noticed that a James Stewart had a daughter in Caputh in 1770 and at the same time a James Stewart had your grandpa William in Clunie...
STEWART
WILLIAM
JAS. STEWART/
M
26/07/1770
339/
10 288
Clunie
STEWART
MARGARET
JAMES STEWART/
F
12/02/1770
337/
20 102
Caputh
-
My brain may explode Alan:) The WikiTree site Stewart-30737 is my older sister, who is undoubtedly wondering why I have just asked her to upload her DNA to her own profile (which she has already done). I can only plead that I just got in from a stirring performance of Handel's Messiah.
I also have a profile there Stewart-30742 and of course we share the same family tree on WikiTree as their rule is one profile per person. I was so frustrated with what I considered to be her abysmal referencing (not that mine is much better) that I started my own.
Our William's WikiTree profile is https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stewart-30742. I have just added your information about Janet's possible death on the research notes for Janet.
Not only is there a William Stewart and Isabel Dow in Clunie and Caputh, there is also a William Stewart born 1770 in Auchtergaven, whom I suspect is the father of the Peter Stewart born 1809. Here is another huge mystery. My Gt Gt Gt (?) grandfather William Stewart born 1817 appears to have been born 10 years after the others (discounting Peter in 1809). What a tangle.
-
Re: STEWART
WILLIAM
ISOBEL DOW/
11/05/1796
337/
20 264
Caputh
Quote. I did compare the two documents closely. The banns were read in Caputh on the 8th (Isabella is from there) and the marriage took place on Clunie on the 11th.
-
from the profile of William Stewart b. 1770 WikiTree profile [[Stewart-30742|William Stewart (bef.1770-bef.1863)]]
William Stewart married Isobel Dow [[Dow-2312|Isabella (Dow) Stewart (abt.1776-bef.1864)]] on 11 May 1796 in the parish of Clunie, Perthshire, Scotland, following the publication of the banns in Caputh Parish on 8 May 1796. <ref>Clunie Parish Register STEWART WILLIAM/ ISOBEL DOW/ Ref 339/ 138;
Caputh Parish Register STEWART WILLIAM/ ISOBEL DOW/ 8/05/1796
Ref 337/20 264 Caputh</ref>
-
Hi Alan, my sister has been researching our Stewarts for many decades and uses Ancestry and LDS records.
I decided to try WikiTree for my work (I dont use ancestry.The information on WikiTree re William born 1770 Clunie and his descendants has mostly been done by her, with some additions by the person in charge of the Stewart project on Wikitree.
I have concentrated on verifying the information through OPRs via Scotlands People and trying really really hard to find this darned James via Scotlands People, My heritage, LDS records - which my sister used for an enormous amount of research over decades, the Red Book and old documents such as Commissariat reports, census etc. (I dont use ancestry). Her approach has been very linear, whereas I tend to also look for connections through branches. Your suggestion re tracking all the James's and their kids is great and I will start compiling those, thank you!
Re the DNA, we're neither very sure how that works, although I have watched the recent Stewart project video. My assumption is that using autosomal DNA, finding matches laterally works really well, finding matches in ancestors however must depend on someone with a verified line to that ancestor. It isn't until we come down 3 generations to Peter Stewart (following William born 1817) that we get a match, and that is our second cousin related through Peter Stewart's mother's side. When we come down one more generation to my grandfather who died at Somme, we have a match wth a cousin through Robertsons.
Am I right in assuming that the DNA match with William born 1770 is a probability, based on our assumptions that William 1770 is the father of William 1817? (if that were to be wrong I dont know what we would do, frankly.) This is both addictive and incredibly frustrating :)
-
Hi Alan. am going to explore STEWART MARGARET
JAMES MACDONALD/
15/04/1798
339/
10 365
Clunie
thanks!
-
Hi Colin. The marriages of William Stewart and Isobel Dow, Caputh and Clunie, the OPR records show that the banns were read in Caputh on May 8th and the marriage took place in Clunie on May 11th. I wonder how often those two separate events get confused.The only place that detail shows up seems to be the OPR records.
Re William Stewart and Margaret Anderson, that's definitely challenging! Someone on Geneanet lists a few marriages and they include the same pair. He also has :
STEWART James | MORISON Agnes : Marriage - 1750, Clunie
STEWART James Stewart | ROBERTSON Margaret: Marriage, - 1753, Clunie. (I have this OPR record)
-
My error. I had the sites for publishing of the banns and the marriage backwards.