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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: Alan of Kaslo on Saturday 27 November 21 03:47 GMT (UK)
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Hello.
I had posted in the post below this one which is also about Dalgarno of Aberdeenshire but I didn't want to hijack the thread with a similar but different question...
In my documents I have my X4 Grandfather James Dalgarno being married to Margaret Ramsay. They married in Old Deer 24/09/1784 (document attached). Their son James was born 15/11/1787 and died in 1863. His death cert lists his parents same as above.
James the son married Sophia Crookshank 27/09/1817. One of their sons is named George Ramsay Dalgarno ... which was my first clue confirming that the mother was Margaret Ramsay (later the death cert of James 1874 also confirmed this). My Grandmother is the sister of George Ramsay Dalgarno and her name is Margaret.
The confusion starts with who is the parents of James Dalgarno sr. who is the father of James that married Sophia Crookshank (my Grandmother Margaret's parents)... There are many Dalgarnos of various spellings in the area. The other sites don't help much with some saying he was born in 1757 , some say 1762, 1767 etc etc.
Many sites list James Dalgarno sr.'s parents as William Dalgarno (many last-name spellings) and Margaret Sangster and have him born 08/11/1757. I had already looked up that birth on SP and it says the father is John Dalgarno and the mother Margaret Sangster. So I look up a wedding for a William Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster and cannot find one... There is a wedding for a John Dalgarno and a Margaret Sangster ... also in Old Deer where the birth was, earlier in the same year 1757.
So I'm trying to tease the truth out of all the various dates and names. James is the only child I can find for John and Margaret. There are a few other births around the area (but not in Old Deer) for a John Dalgarno (no mother listed). Under William Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster there are several births but no James ...and not in Old Deer but in New Deer. One of the births is a MARGARET DALGARDON born to William 16/04/1758 right beside James mentioned above 08/11/1757 born to John Dalgarno and the difference in days is barely enough to be feasible to be the same father (350 days i think it was).
Sorry for the drawn out post... I do have some questions. Can anyone tell me:
- Who is the proper parents of James Dalgarno who married Margaret (Mary) Ramsay 24/09/1784
- What is his actual birth date if not 08/11/1757
- Is his father John Dalgarno as the documents says or William Dalgarno as many say on other sites
- Did John Dalgarno marry Margaret Sangster as the document says or did William marry her
- Are John (Old Deer) and William Dalgarno (New Deer) the same person
It's so frustrating seeing all the info laid out on other sites but James marries a Jane Taylor and not Margaret Ramsay, his father is William and not John but many facts are common between the various trees.
Can anyone help me with any insights or tips on how I can figure out any of the above? I would be very thankful!
Cheers
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Here's the wedding of James Dalgarno and Margaret Ramsay 24/09/1784.
Note the other James Dalgarno who married the Wildgoose lass a month earlier...
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I did post this in the Dalgarno thread below mine ...which I am trying not to derail/hijack so I will post it here instead. It contains the crux of my confusion.
1. John DALGARNO, son of John DALGARNO and Margaret BRYMER, was born in 1726 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland1 and died on March 3, 1819 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland1,2 aged 93.
John married Margaret SANGSTER, daughter of John SANGSTER and Christan BRUCE, on January 18, 1757 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland 1.,2 Margaret was christened on July 27, 1741 in Peterhead, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 and died on January 9, 1820 in Peterhead, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 aged 78.
Children from this marriage were:
+ 2 M i. James DALGARNO was born on November 8, 1757 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland1,2 and died on January 5, 1845 in Slains, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 aged 87.
3 F ii. Margaret DALGARNO was born in April 1758 in , New Deer Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland.
+ 4 M iii. Andrew DALGARNO was born about 1762 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland.
5 F iv. Marjory DALGARNO .
Marjory married Alexander LOW.
6 M v. George DALGARNO was born in November 1765 in , New Deer Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland.3
7 M vi. John DALGARNO was born about 1767 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland3 and died on March 30, 1819 in , Longside Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland3 aged about 52.
John married Katherne CARLE on September 7, 1797 in , Longside Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland.3 Katherne was born in October 1776 in , Longside Parish, Aberdeen, Scotland.3
Here they list John Dalgarno as James's father and have him married to Margaret Sangster. They have James listed as born Old Deer 1757 ....it all looks good with lots of extra info. But then you click on James and it says:
2. James DALGARNO (John1) was born on November 8, 1757 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland1,2 and died on January 5, 1845 in Slains, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 aged 87.
James married Jean TAYLOR on January 25, 1781 in Old Deer, , Aberdeen, Scotland.1 Jean was born about 1762 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland3 and died in June 1830 in , , Aberdeenshire, Scotland3 aged about 68.
No mention of marrying Margaret Ramsay...which I know is the case.
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Regarding me thinking James Dalgarno had married a lass named Hay ... it was a crossed wire from something I read on myheritage
James (Jas) Dalgarno, 1757 - 1845
James (Jas) Dalgarno was born on month day 1757, at birth place , to John Dalgarno and Margaret Dalgarno (born Sangster) .
John was born on September 25 1728, in Kirkton of Slains, Aberdeenshire, Scotland.
Margaret was born on January 26 1725, in New Deer Aberdeen Scotland.
James had 4 siblings: Andrew Dalgarno and 3 other siblings .
James married Margaret Dalgarno (born Ramsey) on month day 1784, at age 26 at marriage place .
Margaret was born on June 20 1748, in Old Deer, Aberdeen, Scotland.
They had 3 children: George Dalgarno and 2 other children .
James then married Helen Dalgarno (born Hay) on month day 1801, at age 43.
Helen was born on 1769, in Lonmay, Aberdeen, Scotland.
They had 3 sons: Joseph Dalgarno and 2 other children .
James passed away on month day 1845, at age 87 at death place .
He was buried on date , at burial place .
In this version he never marries a Jane Taylor but instead marries Helen Hay after Margaret Ramsay passes before 1801. Ancestry trees have all kinds of varying names and dates for James and who he marries.
Again ... any insights, info, tips , comments appreciated. Thank you.
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Best tip is to forget everything you find in an online tree or on commercial web sites like MyHeritage and Ancestry. As you have discovered, they don't all say the same thing, therefore at least some of them are wrong and without documentary evidence you have no way of knowing which are right and which are wrong.
However it is seriously easy to show that your James Dalgarno was not the one who married Jane Taylor
Timeline from the indexes to the original documents at Scotland's People
1781 James Dalgarno marries Margaret Gall in New Deer
1784 James D marries Margaret Ramsay in Old Deer
1785 Baptism of May, daughter of James D and Margaret Ramsay in Old Deer
1787 Baptism of James, son of James D and Margaret Ramsay in Old Deer
1788 James D marries Jean Taylor in Strichen
1790 Baptism of George, son of James D and Margaret Ramsay in Old Deer
1792 Baptism of Elizabeth, daughter of James D and Jane Taylor in Longside
1794 Baptism of George, son of of James D and Jane Taylor in Longside
1856 Death of George Dalgarno, mother's maiden surname Ramsay
1863 Death of James Dalgarno, mother's maiden surname Ramsay
As James D and Jane Taylor were married before the birth of James Dalgarno and Margaret Ramsay's youngest child, these are two different James Dalgarnos.
Also JD and Margaret Ramsay's son George outlived JD and Jane Taylor's son George.
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Who, then, is the James D who married Margaret Ramsay? (I wouldn't worry too much about her being shown as Mary on his death certificate. Sometimes Margaret is abbreviated to Marg and then gets confused with Mary.)
He was married in 1784, so he cannot have been born later than 1770, and it is unlikely that he was born after 1760 or so, because (according to his son James' death certificate) he was a blacksmith. That means he had served an apprenticeship, and basically an apprentice can't afford to support a wife so could not marry until he was fully qualified and earning. (What does George's death certificate say his father's occupation was?)
(Noting that James and Margaret named their first son James, I'd expect James' father's name to be James. I'd expect Margaret's parents to be George and Marjory/May. But that's not set in stone.)
There are two recorded baptisms of James Dalgarnos in eastern Aberdeenshire before 1770
Son of John Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster, baptised 1757 in Old Deer
Son of William Dalgarno, baptised 1759 in New Deer
However there are no fewer than five marriages of James Dalgarnos in that area between 1780 and 1795. Therefore there must be more than two James Dalgarnos. Therefore there must be one or more James Dalgarnos missing from the registers of baptism. Therefore you cannot assume that either of these is the one who married Margaret Ramsay.
The first thing I'd do is look at the originals of all the various Dalgarno baptisms, and note things like the parents' residence, father's occupation and the names of any witnesses if they are listed. If, for instance, Helen Hay's husband was a shoemaker, that would be fairly strong evidence against him being Margaret Ramsay's widower, who was a blacksmith.
Then I'd have a good rake in the indexes to gravestones at http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/databank/miindex/miindex.php and see what they turn up. If necessary get hold of the full inscriptions to find out what the relationships of the various people are to one another. They might be on FindAGrave or BillionGraves, or you might need to get the inscription from one of the published booklets.
I'd also look at all the Dalgarnos listed in the census (use FreeCEN https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl because it's much more accurate than the transcriptions on Ancestry) and compare that information with everything else. It's a bit late, obviously, to include your James D, but there could be clues to earlier generations.
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Forfarian... thank you very much for the thoughtful reply. It helps a lot.
I've gone on SP and bookmarked all the relevant searches which I will purchase asap. Will report back any findings.
I believe this might be James Dalgarno sr.'s death cert. The math works out to 1757 ... which seems to be a good likelihood to be be his birth date. Perhaps it will say something about location or occupation. I've had mixed luck with info on older pre 1855 docs...sometimes its a gold mine and often there is barely more then a name and an age. We shall see.
DALGARDNE JAMES
80
M
12/01/1837
241/
30 252
Strichen
Not sure of course if the above is him for sure. Will check when I can.
Thanks again!
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It's possible, but be careful you don't get yourself into a circular discussion.
If he was 80 when he died on 12 January 1837, he was more likely born in 1756 because he hadn't had time to have a birthday yet in 1757 - or maybe the original says 'In his 80th year' which would mean that he was still only 79, not yet 80. And of course there's no guarantee that his age is accurate, irrespective of how it is recorded.
Ask yourself why, if your man lived all his adult life in Old Deer, he died in Strichen?
I'm amazed at the variants of the name - I'm using Dalg*r* in searches to try to pick them all up.
Do you have a reliable source for a death of Margaret Ramsay, or did someone just dream up the idea that her widower married Helen Hay?
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Good point about the marriage to the Hay...could easily be one of the many other James D's. I have pretty much given up on trusting other peoples trees or listings that pop up on MH etc.
Margaret Ramsay's death I have not found yet... there are several listed with no parents , so its hard to say. I was mostly looking in Old Deer area.
Re: Strichen death for James D , I bet you're right. We already know there was several otherJames D's about.
Yes there are many variations on Dalgarno spellings. Lately I've been using "begins with" Dalga_____. Seems to catch a lot of them, including Dalgarden etc.
I'll keep at it and chime back in.
Thanks
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Here's some of the spelling variations I've found so far:
DALGARNO , DELGARNO , DALGAIRDEN , DALGALMO , DALGAIRN , DALGAIRNS, DALGAIRNE, DALGAIRNO , DALGAIRNER , DALGARDDO , DALGARDEN , DALGARDENS , DALGARDIN, DALGARDINE , DALGARDN , DALGARDNER , DALGARDNO , DALGARDNOE , DALGARNE , DALGARN , DALGARNER , DALGARNIE ,DALGARNOE , DALGARNOT, DALGARNS , DALGARRDNO
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I meant to post James D 1757's birth doc. It has a bunch of clues ... but I'm not 100% certain that is my James D sr.
DALGARNO JAMES
JOHN DALGARNO/MARGARET SANGSTER
M
08/11/1757
228/
10 88
Old Deer
This John Dalgarno is from Clochan...
"CLOCHCAN - This name applies to a district containing several small crofts, it is situated a little north of Brown Hill."
"CLOCHCAN MOSS - Applies to a small peat moss for the use of the people of Annochie only; it is attached to the Clochcan Moss; and situated about 2 Miles South West of the Village of Stuartfield."
I also just noticed the 1801 marriage of James D to Helen Hay was in Lonmay ...
HAY
HELEN
JA. DALGARDEN/ FR384 (FR384)
15/10/1801
219/
20 268
Lonmay
... and this local thread that speaks of the above marriage saying that James D was a shoemaker and not a blacksmith (apologies if you already mentioned this earlier)
You said:
If, for instance, Helen Hay's husband was a shoemaker, that would be fairly strong evidence against him being Margaret Ramsay's widower, who was a blacksmith.
Local thread said:
I think that may be the wrong Joseph Dalgarno - the Joseph Dalgarno who was married to Anna Robertson died in 1880 in Fraserburgh - his parents are noted as James Dalgarno, shoemaker and Helen Hay.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=764025.msg6186011#msg6186011
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Clochcan still exists
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ9443
and it shows on the old map as a moss with a farm and several crofts nearby
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.48237&lon=-2.09484&layers=5&b=1
That is spooky about Helen Hay's James D being a shoemaker. I honestly didn't know at all, and was just guessing - hadn't remembered that other thread. But I think it does rule out Helen Hay being the second wife of Margaret Ramsay's husband.
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Here's some of the spelling variations I've found so far:
DALGARNO , DELGARNO , DALGAIRDEN , DALGALMO , DALGAIRN , DALGAIRNS, DALGAIRNE, DALGAIRNO , DALGAIRNER , DALGARDDO , DALGARDEN , DALGARDENS , DALGARDIN, DALGARDINE , DALGARDN , DALGARDNER , DALGARDNO , DALGARDNOE , DALGARNE , DALGARN , DALGARNER , DALGARNIE ,DALGARNOE , DALGARNOT, DALGARNS , DALGARRDNO
.... Dulgarne, Dillgarne, Dilgarno, Dilgarn, Dilgardyne, Dilgardno, Dilgarden, Dilgairne, Delgarno, Delgarden.
Search for d*l*g*r*n* in future!
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I see there are baptisms of two children to Andrew Dalgarno and Janet Davidson in Old Deer who must be contemporary with your James D and Margaret Ramsay
Sylvester 1757
Christen 1759
Wonder if this Andrew is perhaps James' brother?
Burntbrae is just north of Clochcan
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.48948&lon=-2.09368&layers=5&b=1
PS Is that Kaslo on Kootenay Lake? I've been across the lake on the ferry but we headed west not north.
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Search for d*l*g*r*n* in future!
Thanks for that.. always looking for new ways to search.
Wonder if this Andrew is perhaps James' brother?
I think he might be. John Sangster could be an Uncle or even James's Grandfather.
In Old Deer having kids at the time there was:
John D and Margaret Sangster
William D and Margaret Davidson
Andrew D and Jannet Davidson
PS Is that Kaslo on Kootenay Lake? I've been across the lake on the ferry but we headed west not north
Yes! Still the worlds longest free ferry ride! We like to call her Loch Kootenay. Reminds us daily of Scotland.
Thanks again.
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Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.
Love your signature by the way! So true. Proof of that right here in this thread. No matter how well organized and written a tree or family history is ... that does not equate to having the correct people listed.
I'm even questioning now how I deduced that James D's parents are John D and Margaret Sangster. Did I see it on ancestry? MH? Did I just guess because its the only James D birth in Old Deer around the time? Now I can't even remember.
All I know is I got as far as documents showing James D jr's parents are James D and Margaret Ramsay. The rest it would seem is pure speculation. I did have a DNA test and I can look up names of possible relations... such as Sangster. It says i'm related to 2 people with that surname (one a woman which could be through marriage) and quite a few come up when I search for people with Sangster somewhere in their tree... I'm not sure what if anything that means though. I don't know if that means I'm related to Margaret Sangster.
I do have some confirmed DNA relatives via the Dalgarno side of my family. It says that we are related through James D jr and Sophia Crookshanks... they do have Sangster and Ramsay in their trees (that I can't see as after a year I let my subscription slip so can't see trees or message).
I need to rewind to James Dalgarno 1787 ... the last person I have documents for and somehow trace his father James and find his proper birth info.
The quest continues...
Might have to bite the bullet and get a one month sub , find the best people to contact and write them to see if they have proof of parentage for James Dalgarno and Margaret Ramsay.
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I forgot that I had this document and I also forgot about James's sister May Dalgarno... Does this mean that James D sr. was born in Earlseat Cruden ...or just that he was last living there before that time. The birth itself is in Old Deer.
Some good clues and obscure old-time place names in that doc.
Earlseat
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.43608&lon=-1.96224&layers=5&b=1
Skelmuir
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=13&lat=57.43366&lon=-1.94404&layers=5&b=1
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Interesting.
I think it means that at the time of those births James D and Margaret R were living at Earlseat in the parish of Cruden, so presumably that's where May and James were actually born. Later on, back in Old Deer, they finally got round to having the baptisms recorded in the parish register there. (This isn't unusual, because for a few years either side of 1790 there was a fee for having a baptism recorded, which put a lot of people off doing so.)
Incidentally, pay attention to the words 'of', 'in' and 'at' in older Scottish records.
'Of' specifically implies that the person so described owned the property, or was a member of the family who owned it.
'In' implies that the person(s) so described were living there on a settled basis.
'At' implies short-term residence, for example a hired hand or someone just visiting.
It would probably be worth investigating John Dalgarno in Skelmuir - a brother, perhaps?
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DALGARNO James Head M M 62 Labourer Aberdeenshire - Cruden
DALGARNO Sophia Wife M F 62 Labourers Wife Aberdeenshire - Peterhead
DALGARNO Margt. Daur U F 30 Hoeing Of Other Outside Work Aberdeenshire - Peterhead
DALGARNO George Grnson - M 2 Infant Aberdeenshire - Peterhead
GREIG Keith Lodger U M 20 Labourer Aberdeenshire - Longside
1851 census in Peterhead finds the James D jr family (including my grandmother Margaret). Here they say that James D jr. was born in Cruden.
Also in 1861 census:
DALGARNO James Father W M 73 Agric Labourer Aberdeenshire Cruden
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That certainly matches what the baptism record says.
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I found a reference to a John Sangster 1749 Milne of Skelmuir:
Transcription: May 12th John Sangster in Milne of Skelmuir had a Child Born of his Spouse Jannet Pirie & Baptized
It gets listed as Old Deer also.
SANGSTER
JOHN
JOHN SANGSTER/JANNET PIRIE
M
14/05/1749
228/
10 38
Old Deer
Not sure how far Burntbrae is from Skelmuir
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Side-note:
I found a tidbit about a James Dalgarno who lived at Skelmuir and found ancient artifacts... The Doctor they mention Longmuir lived 1803-1884. James died in 1863. The earlier doc does say John Dalgarno Skelmuir though...
https://books.google.ca/books?id=_-U-AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA350&lpg=PA350&dq=skelmuir+dalgarno&source=bl&ots=BMZSxtKX9Q&sig=ACfU3U1F6QIUL6bnljm6BusWSn8BTkMUdQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXsPLhqb70AhVFJTQIHZMVCdsQ6AF6BAghEAM#v=onepage&q&f=true
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I found a reference to a John Sangster 1749 Milne of Skelmuir
That might be the baptism of the one who was a witness at the baptisms of May and James in 1785 and 1787.
It gets listed as Old Deer also.
It would be, because that's the parish it is in.
Not sure ho far Burntbrae is from Skelmuir.
About four kilometres as the crow flies.
There's a map here https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400157 showing all the parish boundaries. Plus Clochcan, Bruntbrae, Skelmuir, and Earlseat, which is only just inside the parish of Cruden.
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Anyhow, I'm happy with what i've learned so far on my Dalgarno side...It wasn't easy. My grandmother Margaret Dalgarno had my grandfather James Mutch out of wedlock ...It took a long time to piece everything together. James was raised with someone else (a crofter)...Margaret lived with her parents Sophia Crookshank and James Dalgarno. I found them in census in Aughtygall...then later at the family home at 3 Windmill st. Peterhead. I found out about Margeret Ramsay and James D sr. and got a couple docs likevtheir wedding, James jr's baptism etc...but that's as far as I have made it so far...way further then I thought I would.
Eventually I'll figure out who James D sr's parents are...and Margaret Ramsay. Best not to rush research like this.
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Found this but haven't purchased it quite yet...
DALGARNS
MARGARET
SANGSTER / JOHN DALGARNS
80
F
11/01/1817
218/
20 240
Longside
Seems to correspond to this birth of a Margaret Sangster in 1737...
SANGSTER
MARGARET
JOHN SANGSTER/JANNET PIRIE
F
06/09/1737
228/
10 11
Old Deer
So John Sangster of Skelmuir that I mentioned earlier...that was the son of John Sangster and Jannet Pirie... is the younger brother of Margaret... (still not sure this would be my kin)
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Another document from the "forgot I had that" department ...
It's the death of John Dalgarno who married Margaret Sangster. It also mentions Kinmundy (gets mentioned in the 1757 birth of James D posted earlier), which I assume is close to Skelmuir etc...
DALGARNO
JOHN
MARGT SANGSTER
92
M
30/03/1819
218/
20 245
Longside
N. Kinmundy I believe standes for Nether Kinmundy..
Seems to be where John Dalgarno was born.
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Looks good.
There are several places in Aberdeenshire called Kinmundy, including one in the parish of Old Deer
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NK0043
However this is, as you say, Nether Kinmundy, and the records are from the parish of Longside, so it will be this one
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NK0443
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Well... I dug a little deeper and got myself even more confused. I was searching for John Dalgarno and I came upon a WT page that says:
https://bit.ly/3I1oBPj
Biography
William was born about 1727.
He married Margaret Sangster at New Deer on 18 Jan 1757 [1]
He died in 1819 and was buried at Longside 30 Mar 1819 John Dalgarno of N Kinmundy, widower of Margaret Sangster age 92 [2]
Notes
William uses the name 'John' Dalgarno on his marriage record to Margaret Sangster and is buried as 'John' Dalgarno. He is 'William' Dalgarno on the baptism records of his children. It is not clear which was his given name at birth.
It lists his son as James that was born 08/11/1757
James Dalgarno
Born 8 Nov 1757 in Old Deer, Aberdeenshire, Scotlandmap
Ancestors ancestors
Son of William Dalgarno and Margaret (Sangster) Dalgarno
Brother of Margaret (Dalgarno) Keith, Marjory (Dalgarno) Low and George Dalgarno
Husband of Margaret (Gall) Dalgarno — married about 1780 in Scotlandmap
Husband of Jane (Taylor) Dalgarno — married 25 Oct 1788 in Strichen, Aberdeenshire, Scotlandmap
Father of Mary Dalgarno
Died 5 Jan 1845 in Slains, Aberdeenshire, Scotlandmap
Once again he does not marry our Margaret Ramsay 24/09/1784
DALGARNO
JAMES
MARGT. RAMSAY/
24/09/1784
228/
20 331
Old Deer
So that should mean there is a death of a Margaret Dalgarno/Gall between 1780 and 1784. I find it off that they would be so detailed but then leave out Margaret Ramsay ...Of course with my luck there was a Margaret Dalgarno who died 31/10/1784 Old Deer and a Margaret Gall that died 02/05/1784 at Rayne. The Margret D one is after the marriage date of 24/09/1784. Could he have married Margaret Ramsay 4 months after death of Margaret Gall? hmmmm
The thing is that my grandfather James Dalgarno was clearly born in 1787 to James D and Margaret Ramsay. He was born 15/11/1787 and the wiki page says that James married Jane Taylor 25 Oct 1788.
The only female d*l*g*r*n* listed as dying between 1787 and 1788 was a Christian who died 22/07/1788 at Longside...
Any thoughts Forfarian ? ??? ;D
PS: There was also that William d*l*g*r*n* who had a son James in New Deer 1759...
DALGARDEN
JAMES
WILLIAM DALGARDEN/
M
20/04/1759
225/
20 129
New Deer
I'll have to compare that to this birth (dusts off credit card)
DALGARDON
MARGARET
WILLIAM DALGARDON/MARGARET SANGSTER
F
16/04/1758
225/
20 124
New Dee
Then compare both to James Dalgarno born to John and Margaret Ramsay..
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Hmm. That does look strange - John vs William ???
Noting that the baptism in 1757 to William D and Margaret S was in Old Deer, and the three to John D and Margaret S were in New Deer, I hate to have to say it but I don't think you can rule out there being two Margaret Sangsters, one married to John in 1757 and the other married to William. The alternative is that John decided to call himself William while he was in New Deer. Either of those options looks a bit odd.
There are no baptisms of children to James D and Margaret Gall after Mary in 1781, so it is possible that either your James D who married Margaret Ramsay or the other James D who married Jean Taylor was Margaret Gall's widower (or even the one who married Helen Hay). You'd need to see if Mary's baptism gives her father's occupation, and compare that to what you already have.
I notice that James D and Margaret Ramsay named children May and George, and that William D and Margaret Sangster had a George and a Marjory. May and Marjory are used interchangeably, so that looks potentially interesting.
However WT says that John/William's son James married Jane/Jean Taylor, and we know that Jane/Jean Taylor's husband can't also be Margaret Ramsay's husband.
What places and occupations are associated with which of the baptisms?
I see that WT has a death for Mary in 1827 in 'Aberdeenshire' (no parish mentioned - instantly suspicious) which is not matched by either the deaths/burials on Scotland's People, or the ANESFHS MI index. Also that the source of this is given as Ancestry.com. Therefore it is not to be trusted.
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I notice there are quite a few Margaret Sangsters around...even the same year of birth...
Margaret Sangster
JOHN SANGSTER/JANNET PIRIE 06/09/1737 Old Deer
There is also:
Margaret Sangster
WILLIAM SANGSTER/ELISABETH SINCLARI 07/06/1737 Old Deer
Then of course there are several other MS's about in years close and towns nearby.
PS: I see the name Ian Cruikshank referenced across many of the sites as the purveyor the info about Wiliam/John Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster. On tthe DNA side of ancestry I see that I am DNA-related to relatives of siblings of my grandmother Margaret Dalgarno (James jr's daughter). They have Sangster and Ramsay in their ancestry trees... but I have no DNA relation to Ian Cruikshank... even through my Cruikshank side ... (james Dalgarno jr. married Sophia Cr**kshank*). It seems like a major clue if Ian Cruikshank shares his DNA relation to Wiliam/John Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster ...but yet there is no DNA in common between myself and Ian C...
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DALGARDON
MARGARET
WILLIAM DALGARDON/MARGARET SANGSTER
F
16/04/1758
225/
20 124
New Deer
Living in Little ___ (something)
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John and Margaret should be living in Clochan at the time...
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I got the doc for the alternate Margaret Sangster 1737 Old Deer... and she's from Clochan
SANGSTER
MARGARET
WILLIAM SANGSTER/ELISABETH SINCLARI
F
07/06/1737
228/
10 10
Old Deer
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I'm dumping these documents here and we can go through the various locations and witnesses in some of them.
DALGARDNO
GEORGE
WILLIAM DALGARDNO/MARGARET SANGSTER
M
08/11/1765
225/
20 175
New Deer
-
DALGARDINE
MARJORY
WILLIAM DALGARDINE/MARGARET SANGSTER
F
02/06/1763
225/
20 152
New Deer
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I think I might be on to something ... ;D
Earlier I showed the doc of Margaret Dalgarno born to William and Margaret Sangster
Link: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=855836.msg7243246#msg7243246
At the time William Dalgarno and family lived at Little Aucheoch... (thank you RC dechiper team!)
Map: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14&lat=57.54634&lon=-2.13066&layers=3&b=1
So anyhow they had a son named James Dalgarno in 20/04/1759 also at Little Aucheoch ,New Deer (doc attached). Later they go on to have other children like Marjory and George in Griecyhill (thank you deciphering team!).
My question:
How is possible that James Dalgarno was born to John Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster 11/8/1757 Clochan and then a different James Dalgarno was born 20/04/1759 to William and MS... but yet dozens of sites and trees claim that the 1757 James is actually born to William Dalgarno and that William is the same person as John ??? They can't lay claim to both James D's...
Does this not prove that James 1757 from John has different parents then James 1759 from William? I can't see how William Dalgarno is the father of both (and both mothers are named Margaret Sangster but they are not the same person). I feel like i've got it but I can't convince myself i'm right, quite yet...
Am I on to something ?
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Greissyhill on the map with Little Aucheoch just below and to the right in the redzone.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.56465&lon=-2.17472&layers=196&b=1
Clochan not too far away: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.48100&lon=-2.09611&layers=196&b=1
From the witnesses:
"John Sangster in Culsh"
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14.734029169662588&lat=57.53264&lon=-2.19100&layers=3&b=1
"George Sangster in Autamford"
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=14.712921721248447&lat=57.52673&lon=-2.16510&layers=3&b=1
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I need a set of second eyes to go over the latest findings and give me an honest assessment.
Thanks in advance.
It all hinges (to seal the case) on this one document which unbelievably I missed in the last group-buy and haven't got yet. I regret several purchases that lead to nothing when this prize waited to be cracked open!
Marriage:
DALGARNO
JOHN
MARGARET SANGSTER/
18/01/1757
228/
10 217
Old Deer
Spoiler: ... doesn't say anything about where they are besides Old Deer. Still though that is not New Deer where William Dalagarno and Margaret Sangster are.
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SANGSTER
MARGARET
JOHN SANGSTER/JANNET PIRIE
F
06/09/1737
228/
10 11
Old Deer
Cairn Cummer:
https://online.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/smrpub/master/detail.aspx?tab=maps&refno=NJ94SW0034
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/aberdeenshire-os-name-books-1865-1871/aberdeenshire-volume-68/137
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Just getting it all assembled in one place...
Here is Andrew Dalgarno who was mentioned earlier as the witness for the 1757 James D birth. He lives at Burntbrae which is a short walk across the way from Clochan.
He married Janet Davidson in 1756
DALGARNO
ANDREW
JANNET DAVIDSON/
16/09/1756
228/
10 216
Old Deer
He had a son named Sylvester the same year James D was born 1757:
DALGARNO
SYLVESTER
ANDREW DALGARNO/JANNET DAVIDSON
M
08/07/1757
228/
10 86
Old Deer
He could be a brother to John D of Clochan. I tried searching a bunch and the only Andrew D*lg**rn** born in Scotland before then was one in St. Fergus 1703
.
DALGARNO
ANDREW
ANDR. DALGARNO/
M
24/02/1703
166/
10 50
St Fergus
Which would make him about 53/54 for the marriage to Janet Davidson and for the birth of Sylvester. It's possible his birth is simply missing.
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Sorry, I've been a bit distracted the last few days.
I'e been trying to sort out in my own mind where you are with these Dalgarnos and Sangsters. I put some of them into a spreadsheet to see if anything would jump out at me.
George Sangster witnessed at least three baptisms of the children of William Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster. In the first one he was in Mains of somewhere-or-other and in the next two he may have been in Greicyhill (the wording is slightly ambiguous). Is that two different George Sangsters or one who moved between the first and second baptisms? Either way it looks like evidence for William S being either a son or a brother of a George S.
I think this is also good evidence that the mother of James D, born to William D in 1759, was indeed Margaret Sangster. That, plus the fact that in 1759 William D and Margaret S were at the same address where they were in 1758 when Margaret was baptised, Little Aucheoch.
Now, looking at the actual dates of baptism, James D, son of John D and Margaret S in Old Deer was baptised on 8 November 1757, and Margaret, daughter of William D and Margaret S, was baptised on 16 April 1758. Just over five months later. So unless James' baptism was delayed until he was several months old (unlikely), he cannot be Margaret's brother, therefore the wife of William Dalgarno in New Deer is not the same Margaret Sangster as the wife of John Dalgarno in Old Deer.
Does that (a) make sense and (b) help?
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Thank you very much for that synopsis. I found it quite helpful. It hurt my brain a bit to piece it all together, check and re-check...get some in-house deciphering of place names etc. I know they (other sites) meant well but it's almost laughable the part where they say William and John are the same person and that he alternated his first names in various docs.
Anyhow it feels good to have some of these things worked out.
I never would have imagined there could be so many Margaret Sangsters in the area at the time...
I was re-reading the original deeproots write-up I first posted at the beginning of this thread. There are so many weird things in there. There's the stuff we already went through like the fact they leave off Marget Ramsay , say James D 1757 married Jean Taylor but we know he was a shoemaker ... etc, but there are others.
They say James D was born in 1757 and he died 1820 in Slains.
and died on January 5, 1845 in Slains, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 aged 87
There is no such death that I can find.
I forgot to check before but my grandfather James D (who married Sophia Cruikshanks) was born 1787 Old Deer and the James D listed on deeproots is last of 12 kids born 1813. 26 years is a large age difference!
They go on to say Margaret Sangster was born 1741 Peterhead and married in 1757 ...at age 16? Then comes the curious fact that John D and Margaret Sangster marry Jan 18 1757 and their son James is born nov 8 1757.
In short almost everything they have on there is wrong info for John Dalagrno.
I wonder why all the various sites chose James D 1757 over the one in 1759 who actually is from a William D and also a Margaret Sangster. You can see all that even without buying the document. I guess the biggest clue as you mentioned is "Source: ancestry"...
My problem is I am still not 100% sure that James D 1757 is my James D that married Margaret Ramsay. A lot of things point to it being right. I am DNA related to some folks with surname Sangster and DNA related common relatives have Sangster and Ramsay in their trees (not that being in trees is reliable).
I think I need a few more clues to confirm that John D is father of my James D blacksmith.
PS: They say that James D 1757 died in 1845 ...and so would be in the 1841 census. There is one entry with a James D that is 83 and a wool weaver. He lives with a Christian and a George age 43. Search that and it will return:
DALGARNO
GEORGE
JAMES DALGARNO/JANE TAYLOR
M
29/09/1794
218/
10 376
Longside
Which chronologically falls right below:
DALGARNO
GEORGE
JAMES DALGARNO/MARGARET RAMSAY FR378 (FR378)
M
20/06/1790
228/
20 203
Old Deer
Why would James have a second son named George when his first one George Ramsay Dalgarno was well and alive as a young lad?
Margaret Sangster gets listed as born:
Margaret was christened on July 27, 1741 in Peterhead, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 and died on January 9, 1820 in Peterhead, , Aberdeen, Scotland2 aged 78.
So presumably this is that Margaret Sangster:
SANGSTER
-----
JOHN SANGSTER
U
05/11/1820
232/
50 10
Peterhead
It's going to be very difficult to determine which Margaret Sangster is the correct one that married John D...
Margaret Sangster
JOHN SANGSTER/JANNET PIRIE 06/09/1737 Old Deer
There is also:
Margaret Sangster
WILLIAM SANGSTER/ELISABETH SINCLARI 07/06/1737 Old Deer
I lean towards Margaret Sangster from Clochan 1737 daughter of William S and Elisabeth Sinclair. I don't think Carincummer is very far so it could just as easily be the one born to John Sangster and Janet Pirie.
As I said, I'd be happy just confirm that John D and a Margaret S are James D blacksmith that married Margaret Ramsay.
I'll keep digging and eventually something will come up.
Thanks again!
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George Sangster witnessed at least three baptisms of the children of William Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster. In the first one he was in Mains of somewhere-or-other and in the next two he may have been in Greicyhill (the wording is slightly ambiguous). Is that two different George Sangsters or one who moved between the first and second baptisms? Either way it looks like evidence for William S being either a son or a brother of a George S.
Slip of brain, finger and common sense.
It is evidence for Margaret Sangster, wife of William D, being a daughter or sister of George Sangster(s).
Sorry about that!
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Very thankful for all your help!
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Margaret Gall cannot be the Margaret Dalgarno who died in 1784 , listed on SP.
I got the doc and it says she died at Backhill of Denns...
DALGARNO
MARGT
-----
F
31/10/1784
228/
30 86
Old Deer
But James D and Margaret Ramsay married before that
DALGARNO
JAMES
MARGT. RAMSAY/
24/09/1784
228/
20 331
Old Deer
I'll have to get myself a couple stocking-stuffers from SP ;D
DALGARDNO
JAMES
MARGARET GALL/
25/01/1781
228/
20 324
Old Deer
and
DALGARDNO
JAMES
JEAN TAYLOR/
25/10/1788
241/
20 247
Strichen
And just to confuse things...as usual... there is a death of a Margaret Gall in 1784
GALL
MARGARET
JOHN GALL
F
02/05/1784
236/
20 203
Rayne
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I think Rayne is probably far enough away for it to be unlikely that this is Margaret Gall or Dalgarno.
Interestingly, there is a stone in Fetterangus kirkyard with Margaret Gall, died 27 January 1784, and James Dalgarno, no date.
See http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/databank/miindex/miindex.php
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29 Margaret Sangster's amongst the headstones!
But none with a Dalgarno...
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Some of the Dalgarnos are on FindAGrave.
In the burial ground around this stone are interred the remains of James Dalgarno, weaver, sometimes residing at Nether Kinmundy who died at Slains on the 5th of Jan'y 1845 aged 88 years. Also John Dalgarno, weaver, who died at Millbrack in Jan 1831 aged 44 years. And George Dalgarno, son of the said James Dalgarno for 23 years Merchant in Slains who died at Aberdeen on the 23rd June 1847 aged 53 years. He maintained a high charactor for integrity and moral worth and died deeply regretted by a large circle of friends. Also in memory of Jane Taylor, spouse of the said James Dalgarno, who died in June 1830 aged 68 years. [Old Deer kirkyard]
Noting that James D and Jean Taylor lived at Nether Kinmundy, and that John D, widower of Margaret Sangster, also lived at Nether Kinmundy, might lead one to think that James D, son of John D and Margaret S, was the one who married Jean Taylor, and therefore that the one who married Margaret Ramsay was the son of William D and Margaret Sangster?
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That is quite interesting...
1845-88=1757
James Dalgarno 1757 "should" be a blacksmith not a weaver. Interesting that this James was in Nether Kinmundy as that came up earlier in the thread...John Dalgarno and Margaret Sangster died in NK also.
Will have to explore all the people listed there to get a better understanding of what's going on.
Noting that James D and Jean Taylor lived at Nether Kinmundy, and that John D, widower of Margaret Sangster, also lived at Nether Kinmundy, might lead one to think that James D, son of John D and Margaret S, was the one who married Jean Taylor, and therefore that the one who married Margaret Ramsay was the son of William D and Margaret Sangster?
Yes , it looks that way but i'm confused again and will have to look over everything again.
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This does look like and indication that James D 1759 from William and Margaret S could be my elusive James D...
I never did know for sure that John D was his father, just assumed.
James Dalgarno, weaver, sometimes residing at Nether Kinmundy who died at Slains on the 5th of Jan'y 1845
I don't see that death on SP. Only a Robert D died between 1843-1845. He died 16/04/1845
John Dalgarno, weaver, who died at Millbrack in Jan 1831 aged 44 years.
Not on SP either... but a child of that name aged 7 died in Longside.
No birth for a John D to correspond to the above between 1786 and 1788. There was a John D born in 1785 to an Alexander D and Margaret Clarke.
DALGARNO
GEORGE
JAMES DALGARNO/JANE TAYLOR
M
29/09/1794
218/
10 376
Longside
Above George from 1794 is on SP. Will get it when possible.
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Rewinding a bit ... here is one of the last know to be valid documents that are regarding James D from Margaret Ramsay. I shared it earlier but do again so I can refer to it.
I think this is where I originally got the idea that John Dalgarno was James D's father. It still could be the case but John D from Nether Kinmundy and John D from Skelmuir are likely two different people. It's still possible John from Skelmuir could be his dad but it could be an uncle also and William from Little Aucheloch could be his father.
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Jamed D's sister May that we spoke of earlier was born 20/10/1785 to James D sr and Margaret Ramsay. There are two May Dalgarnos died in all of Scotland at the time in Aberdeenshire ... The one that died 17/07/1829 at age 44 in Strichen would be born 1785...
Our May Dalgarno was born 20/10/1785. The other May Dalgarno was born 1772 and also might have died in Strichen 13/03/1839.
Reason I mention this is because there is still that James Dalgarno who died in Strichen 12/01/1837 at age 80. I thought that May might have been there living with James. I won't know until I get the docs to see if there are clues.
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Interestingly we could be related...but my link will always be in doubt. See below a post I made on this forum in 2011.
The proposition is that James Dalgarno fathered my great great grandfather and his twin brother...while his own wife was pregnant (she subsequently died before the twins were born). He was the son of Henry, who was the son of James who was the son of James and Mary Ramsay.
In September 1879 my great great great grandmother gave birth to illegitimate twins James and Samuel Garden. Their father was not stated on birth certificates, but it became clear through subsequent years that they were children of a Mr Dalgarno. When James Garden married, he gave his name as James Dalgarno, and registered his son as a Dalgarno too before changing his mind and reverting back to Garden. Samuel stuck to Garden, but on his marriage record it was stated that his mother was previously Mrs Dalgarno (which she never was).
Anyway...
I am a big fan of tracing fathers though the name of the illegitimate child. Thus I thought I'd see if there were any James or Samuel Dalgarnos in the Peterhead area as potential fathers to the twins. There were no Samuels, but two Jameses of interest.
In the first instance, James William Dalgarno had an illegitimate child with Jane Garden - the aunt of Samuel and James - in 1877. As you can imagine I thought I was in luck as there was a direct link to my family (possibly too direct). James William married Jane in 1879, the year the twins were born. He became the most likely candidate until last night.
Last night I found the second James Dalgarno...
This second James Dalgarno lived at 31c Broad Street, Peterhead, in 1879. Margaret Garden - the twins mother - also lived at 31 Broad Street (it appears to be a block of flats). The twins place of birth in September 1879 was given as 31c Broad Street. Then it gets interesting. James Dalgarno's wife died in January 1879 1 1/4 months after child birth [at 31c Broad Street]. Thus if he was the father of the twins, they would have been conceived when his wife was about 7 months pregnant (assuming both pregnancies lasted 9 months). So with a wife 7 months pregnant, may he have looked next door?
Of course I would never document either of them as the father as there is simply not enough evidence to suggest that either are definately the father. Makes you think though... ;)
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In September 1879 my great great great grandmother gave birth to illegitimate twins James and Samuel Garden. Their father was not stated on birth certificates, but it became clear through subsequent years that they were children of a Mr Dalgarno. When James Garden married, he gave his name as James Dalgarno, and registered his son as a Dalgarno too before changing his mind and reverting back to Garden. Samuel stuck to Garden, but on his marriage record it was stated that his mother was previously Mrs Dalgarno (which she never was).
From the minutes of Peterhead Kirk Session, 5th November 1878:
Compeared Margaret Garden, Broad Street,
who confessed that she had given birth
to a child in fornication on the 17th June
last and charging as the Father James
Morrison, Stone Cutter, Windmill Street.
Neither party being in communion with
the Church, the case was delayed till
they should seek admission.
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In September 1879 my great great great grandmother gave birth to illegitimate twins James and Samuel Garden. Their father was not stated on birth certificates, but it became clear through subsequent years that they were children of a Mr Dalgarno. When James Garden married, he gave his name as James Dalgarno, and registered his son as a Dalgarno too before changing his mind and reverting back to Garden. Samuel stuck to Garden, but on his marriage record it was stated that his mother was previously Mrs Dalgarno (which she never was).
From the minutes of Peterhead Kirk Session, 5th November 1878:
Compeared Margaret Garden, Broad Street,
who confessed that she had given birth
to a child in fornication on the 17th June
last and charging as the Father James
Morrison, Stone Cutter, Windmill Street.
Neither party being in communion with
the Church, the case was delayed till
they should seek admission.
Excellent. Yes, there were a few. Margaret was in the Police Court looking for ailment money from a butcher - another father.
Was hopeful that there may be something in the Kirk Session records for the twins but, alas, no.
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Nice to meet you. That is interesting stuff. I looked into the names you were giving and I see what's going on there. Still a bit confused at how exactly James Dalgarno that fathered the twins ties back to JD that married Mary Ramsay.
I do know my illegitimate-born great great great grandmother Margaret Dalgarno had brothers Henry Flockhart , George Ramsay and William Boyes...but I hadn't followed their kids very much. Most of those brothers died young as I remember.
Henry 1828 , George 1821 , William 1825... never could find my grandmother Margaret Dalgarno's birth info. There is a record from 1823 that is intriguing:
DALGARNO
-----
JAMES DALGARNO/
U
01/06/1823
232/
Unknown Dalgarno born in Peterhead to James Dalgarno , witnesses James Cruickshank and William Boyes. I kind of hope this isn't Margaret as she he had my grandfather in 1836 and so be 13 for birth. Her document could simply be missing and this is a sibling who perhaps died at birth.
Is it the James born to Henry and Isabella Willox that (possibly) connects us?
DALGAIRN
JAMES
HENRY DALGAIRN/ISABELLA WILLOX
M
12/07/1852
232/
Also ... I was wondering if there are 2 Helen Gardens in 1881? ...one is listed as 54 (from Peterhead) living with husband John and grandsons the twins James and Samuel on Broad st the other was a James Dalgarno aged 25 in New Deer (from New Deer)with wife Jane , son James 4 and a Helen Garden 53 from Fraserburgh. Same Helen?
In 1877 I see that James Dalgarno lived at 12/3 Broad street and John Garden lived at 12/5 Broad. I'm assuming mother of twins lived with John and Helen at the time?
DALGARNO
JAMES
Tenant Occupier
STORE NO 29 31 BROAD STREET
PETERHEAD
1893
DALGARNO
JAMES
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 31 G BROAD STREET
PETERHEAD
1893
1893 James occupied a place at 31 Broad and is also listed as occupying a store.
He was the son of Henry, who was the son of James who was the son of James and Mary Ramsay.
Re-read that a few times... I get it now.
James Dalgarno , son of Henry Flockhart had a sister named Isabella. I am DNA related as a "common-relative" to some folks on ancestry via Henry Flockhart...again , brother of my great x3 grandmother Margaret Dalgarno (later married a Smith).
The family names starting with Dalgarno in that line are all Gaelic. Cruikshank , Gammack, Ramsay , Ogston
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I'm still admittedly confused as to how you deduced James Dalgarno of broad street is the son of Henry Flockhart Dalgarno? I've tried several times to re-read everything. I see a James Dalgarno on Broad street in the valuations in 1893 but I can't find anything that ties him to Henry Dalgarno ...besides being in Peterhead. What am I missing?
Is this death doc where you got the clues?
DALGARNO
MARGARET
30
HARDIE
1879
232/1 37
Peterhead
We know from the 1881 census that 28 year old widower James Dalgarno -carter, lived at 11 Lodge Watch with parents Henry and Isabella and his kids.
Cheers.
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We're back .... ;D
Hello all. I have been recently looking into my Dalgarno relatives again. I never did get much further then where I was when I left this thread last time. A couple tantalizing clues did emerge though. First a recap:
My great Grandmother was Margaret Dalgarno from Aberdeenshire. She had my Grandfather James Mutch out of wedlock on 21/05/1836 at Peterhead. The father was Joseph Mutch. On his death the cert for James Mutch says the same...born illegitimate.. it lists his mother as Margaret Smith. I know it's the correct death cert for James because it correctly lists his wife Ann Chapman.
That lead me to find the 18/11/1852 marriage of Margaret Dalgairn and George Smith. This couple had 2 kids from what I can see. George and Isabella. Then George the father dies leaving Margaret widowed in 1854.
Meanwhile I had earlier followed ancestry trees (never a good idea) and put Margaret Dalgarno's birth at 1821. Based on that I found the corresponding census entry for a Margaret Dalgarno who lived at Aughtygall in 1841 with parents James Dalgarno and Sophia Crookdhank:
1841 census:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a140390f4040b9d6ee7f093/margret-dalgarno-1841-aberdeenshire-peterhead-1821-?locale=en
it says omitted from previous page. When you go to the previous page there is this entry:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14038ff4040b9d6ee7ede9/sophia-dalgarno-1841-aberdeenshire-peterhead-1791-?locale=en
Interestingly this Margaret Dalgarno above is with a young girl named Elspet Mutch. My Grandfather James Mutch is nowhere to be found. I did some looking and found him nearby at Blackhill with a crofter named William Taylor:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14038ff4040b9d6ee7ee23/jas-mutch-1841-aberdeenshire-peterhead-1836-?locale=en
So that is where things stood earlier. I was still under the impression that Margaret Dalgarno's parents were as listed on the 1841 Aughygall census ...James Dalgarno and Sophia Cruickshank. After Sophia dies you even see Margaret Smith with daughter Isabella and father James Dalgarno labourer.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026aefe9379091b1db68c8/isabella-smith-1861-aberdeenshire-peterhead-1853-?locale=en
The problem is that my Grandfather was born 21/05/1836 and so would make Margaret only 14/15 years old for the birth if she was born in 1821. After awhile I just forgot about it until recently I got a notification that I had a new DNA relative listed.
This person was related via a woman named Jane Kennedy born about 1831 to a Margaret Dalgairn who died 1874. Parents listed as James Dalgarno and Jane Taylor. I got the death cert (attached) and it does contain that info. No mention of the name Smith. There is a big question mark so there was some confusion... She dies in Blackhill which is where James Mutch was at age 5 with William Kennedy.. The witness is a James Willox who is the husband of Jane Kennedy and it says son in law to Margaret. It also says she was 74 years old so born 1800/1801.
This Margaret fits in a lot of ways ... her age , she dies in Blackhill , son in law is the right person.
I found them in 1841 census:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a13ff36f4040b9d6ee2e07a/margret-dalgarno-1841-aberdeenshire-longside-1801-?locale=en
So this is the crux of my current confusion ...
Which Margaret Dalgarno is the correct one for me? How can there be a Margaret Dalgarno with daughter Jean Kennedy in 1841aged 40 and a Margaret Dalgarno living with Elspet Mutch at Autygall aged 20 and I'm somehow related to both ...
The ages given for Margaret Dalgarno who lived at Aughtygall always line up with being born about 1821. She consistently gives her age as born 1821 and lists James Dalgarno widowed labourer as her live-in father.
It gets a bit more complicated as I am also DNA related to children of Henry Flockhart Dalgarno. He is the son of James Dalgarno and Sophia Cruickshank. He was born 15/07/1828 at Peterhead. James and Sophia married 1817.
So it seems that James Dalgarno who married Sophia Cruikshank is related to my Margaret Dalgarno ...even if he isn't her father. I had thought James could possibly be her uncle but found no proof. The death cert for James Dalgarno 1787-1853 says his father was a blacksmith and his mother was Margret Ramsay whereas Margaret Dalgarno who died 1874 lists father as James Dalgarno weaver and mother Jane Taylor.
That JD and Taylor combo sounds like the one mentioned earlier in this thread and on this grave:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/232471357/jane-dalgarno
I believe the above James Dalgarno , wearver , was at Blackhill also in 1841:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a1400e1f4040b9d6ee4d3d8/james-dalgarno-1841-aberdeenshire-slains-1758-?locale=en
If anyone has time to look at this I'd be thankful. I'm trying to tease out what goes on there with Margaret Dalgarno. Is there 2 of them or one that gives false info on censuses? Or can I be related somehow to both? Thanks in advance. I am rereading the current thread as there was a lot discussed and there may be stuff that has been already brought up.
Attached is the 1874 death of Margaret Dalgairn at age 74. Parents James Dalgarno weaver and Jane Taylor. I actually had this document years before finding the DNA relative of Jane Kennedy. I had discounted it because of the 74 in 1874 age that dated her to 1800/1801.
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I was also going to mention that I am showing DNA relative connections to siblings of James Dalgarno 1757-1845 (the weaver from the grave stone). They are George 1765 and Marjory 1763.
Here's a list of the children of James and Jane Taylor:
John Dalgarno
1789–1831
George Dalgarno
1793–1847
Margaret Dalgarno
1800–1874
Christian Dalgarno
1801–1875
Jane Dalgarno
–1847
Elizabeth Dalgarno
–1866
Noticeably there is no James Dalgarno above.
There are only two J D's born at the time in Aberdeenshire:
One on 31/12/1768 and the one born 15/11/1787 to J D and Margaret Ramsay. The first says it's for a child named James father unkown dead Dalgarno. Bapitzed. Witness Andrew Walker & Jean Mord.
I just have to figure out how James Dalgarno 1787-1863 is related to James Dalgarno 1757-1845 and Jane Taylor... and how the two Margaret's are related.
One thing for sure is my Grandmother married George Smith and in the 1861 census that Margaret Smith has to be her...
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026aefe9379091b1db68c6/margaret-smith-1861-aberdeenshire-peterhead-1821-?locale=en
father James Dalgarno , daughter Isabella Smith , windmill street etc Since there are obviously many records missing from the time Margret's birth could be closer to 1817 marriage for James (even though census says 1821 birth). At any rate there must be a connection between James Dalgarno 1757 weaver and James Dalgarno 1787 son of Margaret Ramsay. The latter was born in Cruden.
I might have got caught up in the DNA excitement and not thought it through properly. All I know is I am related somehow to Margaret Dalgarno 1800 daughter of James Dalgarno 1757, possibly an Aunt and at the same time related to Margaret Dalgarno 1817-1821 , who is my Grandmother (I have all the documents). It seems that she never raised my Grandfather James Mutch and he instead lived with a crofter named William Taylor at Blackhills. He was 60 in 1861 born about 1781. Possibly a nephew or brother to Jean Taylor. Regardless , if Margaret is James Mutch's mother then her parents seem to be Sophia Crookshank and James Dalgarno 1787. Which brings me back to square one on how to connect James 1757 and James 1787.
Again, any help greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Back with an update...
I feel like I was floundering around there and not really getting much progress. The best thing I did was reread this thread. Most of the answers I'm seeking were already addressed earlier.
It comes down (as first mentioned by Neale I believe):
It appears that there are two brothers John and William Dalgarno near New Deer and each of them is having kids around 1750/1760's . People on ancestry have come to believe that William & John are the same person but I don't think it's the case. Both were married to someone named Margaret Sangster.
It was John Dalgarno having a son named James in 1757 at Clochan with Margaret Sangster., witness John Sangster
Meanwhile William Dalgarden has son James in 1759 at Little Auchloch with witness George Sangster. It doesn't say wife was Margaret Sangster but it seems implied.
To the best of my knowledge James Dalgarno 1757 from John is the same one who is the weaver of Blackhills mentioned on the grave:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/232471280/james_dalgarno
I believe:
JD 1757 first married Margaret Gall and then Jane Taylor in 1788
JD 1759 married Margaret Ramsay 1781 and then possible Helen Hay in 1801 (no clues on this marriage doc)
So that's where it stands... I'm trying to find definitive prove that William and John are two different people, likely brothers that each had a son named James. If the documents are correct James Dalgarno who married Margaret Ramsay should be a blacksmith.
On SP the two are listed side by side and it looks like they are two different people:
Dalgarno
James
John Dalgarno/Margaret Sangster
M
08/11/1757
228
10 / 88
Old Deer
Dalgardon
Margaret
William Dalgardon/Margaret Sangster
F
16/04/1758
225
20 / 124
New Deer
I believe this James 1759 from the same William is the father of JD 1787 and married Margaret Ramsay (and possibly later to a Hay). So he would be cousin to JD 1757 the weaver of Blackhill.
Dalgarden
James
William Dalgarden
M
20/04/1759
225
20 / 129
New Deer
Above: William is at Little Auchioch New Deer and John is at Clochan Old Deer.
It all hinges on whether James Dalgarno 1759 was a blacksmith at Earlseat Cruden ...
Forfarian already mentioned a bunch of this earlier and I'm thankful!
I feel like I have already received a bunch of help on this... but if anyone has any insights I'd be greatly appreciative! Anyone who has any opinions, comments , critiques... please feel free to chime in!
Attached: James Dalgarden birth 1759 -father William Dalgarno Little Auchoch