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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: goldnplomp on Thursday 18 November 21 22:58 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I am attempting to find marriage and death records for Mary HALLIDAY b. 1815. Mary HALLIDAY married George GOLD b.1814 d.1858 in about 1841 and Mary's death was between 1853 and 1856. I was able to find birth records for all of their children in the Wishaw Relief Church Baptismal Register 1831-1864 (NAS CH3/1219/6) and I am wondering if anyone knows if the Wishaw Relieve Church kept any Marriage or Death records.
Thank you for your time.
Art
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The catalogue of the National Archives of Scotland does not show any marriage records for the church. The only deaths are for 1835-1846 - CH3/1219/2.
CH3/1219/2 also contains the minutes for 1826-1847. It is not impossible that there is a reference to a marriage there, if Mary were expecting a child before her marriage.
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Thank you for the insight GR2.
George's father, Andrew GOLD b.1970 d.1857 is listed throughout the Minutes of Committee to Raise Funds for the Building of the Church 1822-1824 (NAS CH3/1219/1) When viewing the minutes, I noticed that within the minutes there were 4-5 baptismal records on Pg14 so as you say it is not impossible that there is a reference to a marriage in the subsequent minutes. Perhaps NAS CH3/1219/2 holds the key to the Marry HALLIDAY puzzle.
Thanks again!
Art
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According to Diane Baptie's excellent "Registers of the Secession Churches in Scotland",
Wishaw Relief church CH3 1219/2 Deaths 1835 - 1846. Also CH3 1219/3 Births 1831 -1864.
Sad to see this beautiful church building now closed for ever and being used by a funeral director!
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Andrew Gold, "mason at Cam'nethan Kirk", was a founder member of Wishawtown Relief Church in 1822 and was one of 4 men appointed to "draw out specifications, in order to ascertain the expense, and that said gentlemen should meet for this purpose next day". This would have taken place sometime in September 1822 when the land (1 acre of ground) had just been purchased. Andrew was one of the original fourteen local men who formed the working committee to oversee the building of the church.
The church (or Meeting House) was opened for worship 3rd August 1823 at a cost of £528. 19. 10.
The first minister appointed was the Rev John MacIntyre was took up his ministry in 1825 and died 5 years later. The next minister was Rev Peter Brown who was minister there from 1831 until 1863 when he left to take up a charge at Melbourne, Australia.
If any of your Gold or Halliday ancestors were married or baptised at Wishaw Relief Church between 1831 and 1863 Peter Brown would have been the celebrant.
Here is is -
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"Mason at Cam'nethan Kirk" would have refered to Andrew's abode. He was a stonemason and lived in the village adjacent to "Cam'nethan kirk" or, in proper English, Cambusnethan Church. The name "Cam'nethan" is still used by local residents today. It is very confusing when there is a village or town set within a parish of the same name.
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I can't say when Mary Halliday died but, if she and her husband lived in the Wishaw area they would probably have been interred in the very large plot owned by the Gold family in Cambusnethan old churchyard.
There are 3 headstones on this plot but the late Victorian records indicate that there were actually two plots. However, my guess is, this was just one "giant" plot and the cemetery authorities who took over the running of the churchyard in the 1870's, weren't too sure how many compartments were in that particular piece of ground. (Cambusnethan used the descriptions "North", "South" and "Centre" to distinguish where in the plot each corpse was interred, different terminations were used by other parishes, Avondale for example, used "buried in the 1", "buried in the 2" and so on.
Unfortunately in the case of the Cambusnethan burials, written records for the churchyard were not recorded until about 1875, these records are augmented by records of daily interments in the Day Book for the adjoining municipal cemetery.
So, here's what the Victorians have to tell us about the Gold family plot.
first of all, the owner of both plots was Andrew Gold.
In the South compartment - (all dates are of interment)
ROBERT MUIR, aged 66 years. 16th February 1888.
REBECCA MUIR, aged 74 years. 9th January 1892.
JOHN MILLER, aged 33 years. 1st November 1879.
A. GOLD MUIR, aged 9 months. 26th January 1880.
REBECCA MILLER, aged 39 years. 18th October 1886.
In the Centre compartment -
CATHERINE GOLD, aged 55 years. 13th October 1889.
ANDREW GOLD, aged 61 years. 14th November 1898.
JOHN M. GOLD, aged 22 years. 2nd September 1895.
- - - - - GOLD, no age given. 4th August 1900.
To add to the list are the following entries from the gravediggers Day Book.
STILLBORN FEMALE MUIR, Cambusnethan.
Parents - Robert Muir & Rebecca Gold.
Interred in the old churchyard, 1st April 1863.
REBECCA GOLD, Cambusnethan. Aged 77 years. Widow.
Parents - George Kilpatrick, no mother's name given.
Interred in the old churchyard, 25th July 1867.
GEORGE JAMES GOLD, Braidwood. Aged 3 years & 9 months.
Parents - Andrew Gold & Catherine Oman.
Interred in the old churchyard, 13th February 1875.
BELLA M.M. GOLD, Carluke. Aged 8 years.
Parents - Andrew Gold & Catherine M. Oman.
Interred in the old churchyard, 17th January 1878.
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Of the 3 headstones on this plot, I have pictures of 2 and the transcriptions from all three.
The first stone has the inscription (very worn and the lower part is undecipherable) -
"Erected by Andrew Gold in memory of his mother Isabella Morton who died 11th June 1840 aged 27 years. His father Andrew died July 1844" .................. (rest worn).
Second stone -
"Andrew Gold died at Westfield, Carluke 11th November 1898 aged 61 years. His wife Catherine Millar Oman died at Westfield, Carluke 8th October 1891. Son George James and daughter Bella Millar Morton died in infancy. Son John died 29th August 1895 aged 22 years. Eldest son Andrew died at Gibraltar 14th November 1899 aged 32 years".
Third stone -
"Andrew Gold died 11th November 1857 aged 67 years. His wife Rebecca Kilpatrick died at Cambusnethan 23rd July 1867 aged 77 years. Elizabeth Weir died 8th January 1823 aged 74 years. John Millar died 30th October 1879 aged 36 years (his wife Rebecca Kilpatrick Muir died 15th October 1886 aged 39 years). His son-in-law Robert Muir ....(worn) .... aged 62 years" ........... rest of stone worn.
These transcriptions were done in 1982 and were hand-written, then typed on an old Remington. The actual wording my appear different on the stones. The relationships are always to the first person on the stone.
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Pictures of 2 of the stones on the Gold family plot.
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Here's another stone that may be of interest, it's tucked into the edge of the Gold plot.
The inscription reads -
"William Morton died 7th July 1864 aged 57 years. His wife Elizabeth Gold died 10th April 1886 aged 69 years. 6 children died in infancy. Daughter Rebecca died 8th November 1859 aged 10 years. Daughter Isabella died 9th November 1859 aged 4 years. Son John died 30th August 1879 aged 20 years".
(The 1859 deaths would have been due to the terrible outbreak of cholera in the district at the time).
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The surviving burial records for the Morton plot -
Owners were William Morton & Elizabeth Gold.
In the South -
ELIZABETH MORTON, aged 69 years. 13th April 1886.
In the Centre -
JOHN MORTON, aged 20 years. 2nd September 1879.
ELIZABETH MORTON, aged 2 months. 22nd September 1881.
JOHN MORTON, aged 7 years. 8th April 1885.
E.M. MORTON, aged 7 weeks. 23rd February 1886.
and from the Day Book records-
WILLIAM MORTON, mason, Cambusnethan, aged 57 years. Married.
Parents - John Morton & Isabella Pate. Interred in the old churchyard, 11th July 1864.
JOHN MORTON, watchmaker, Wishaw, aged 20 years. Unmarried.
Parents - William Morton & Elizabeth Gold. Interred in the old churchyard, 2nd September 1879.
ELIZABETH MORTON, Wishaw, aged 2 months.
Parents - George G. Morton & Susan Moffat. Interred in the old churchyard, 22nd September 1881.
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This man is mentioned on the 3rd of the Gold stones.
JOHN MILLAR, roadsman, Glenbuck, aged 36 years. Married.
Parents - Archibald Millar. (No mother's name given). Interred in the old churchyard 1st November 1879.
Husband of Rebecca Kilpatrick Muir.
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Wow Lodger!! You have gone above and beyond! Thank you.
It is unfortunate that CH3 1219/2 Deaths only covers the period 1835 - 1846 as Mary's death would have been much later than this. I was able to locate death records for her husband George GOLD b.1814 d.1858 (death just a few years after Mary) and all of George GOLD's siblings (Andrew GOLD b.1812 d.1844, Elizabeth GOLD b1816 d.1886 and Rebecca GOLD b.1818 d.1892) but records for Mary HALLIDAY seem to have disappeared into a vortex. It makes one think that some records must have been destroyed or misplaced.
Thanks again for all your insights.
Art
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Ledger,
You are incredible!!!
I read through rootschat queries and answers each day in case my lot come up. (I'm in Australia)
You have just given life to a whole family!
:o
Cheers,
Chris
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Firstly, I'll apologise if this has been shown already...
The unknown death in reply #6 "- - - - - GOLD, no age given. 4th August 1900." by Lodger looks to be...
GOLD ANDREW 58
HALLIDAY (mms)
1900 - 628/ 70 Cambusnethan
Annie
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Well done Rosinish, this Andrew was married to Alice Queen and she is listed as "head of house" on the 1901 census (Ancestry version) along with her children Benjamin, Sarah and Agnes. They correspond with the list of his children from various Poor Relief applications made by Andrew in the 1890's.
The Cambusnethan cemetery Day Books for 1899 - 1904 have not survived, so I wasn't able to cross-check that Gold plot interment to find who the parents were.
I'll now go and look for any further burials for Andrew's children.
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There is also a Poor Relief application from Robert Gold, brother of the above Andrew. They both give their parents as George Gold, mason and Mary Halliday (both dead by the time of their applications). Robert is married to Maggie Allan and they have (in 1880) 2 dependant children.
Robert spent 6 months in America according to this claim and, he also lived, prior to his marriage, with his step-mother at Waterloo. (A village in Cambusnethan parish).
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All I could find was this one death for a child of Andrew's.
JOHN GOLD, Wishaw. Aged 3 years.
Parents - Andrew Gold and Alice Queen.
Interred in the new cemetery, plot D99 on 13th October 1888.
So, this John wasn't interred in the old churchyard with his ancestors and I couldn't find records for other interments in D99 but, there are gaps in the records, especially 1900 - 1906 and the records I have finish around 1917. No sign of Alice Queen's death on SP, wonder if she went back to Ireland?
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Hello,
Thank you again for all the information you have uncovered. Andrew Halliday GOLD b.1841 d.1900 was the first born son of George GOLD and Mary HALLIDAY. Andrew married Alice Quin b.abt 1856 (Ireland) d.1924 in 1886 in Cambusnethan.
Robert GOLD b.1850 d.1922 (Brother of the above Andrew Halliday GOLD) married Margaret ALLAN b.1855 d.1899 in 1874. After the death of Margaret ALLAN, Robert moved to Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada where his son Willian Allan GOLD was at the time. Robert GOLD passed away in 1922 (Winnipeg, MB). William Allan GOLD eventually moved to Vancouver, BC Canada.
Thank you again for sharing all this information.
Art
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Hello
Thank you ALL for all the great Gold Family research and information, very much appreciated, Lodger, Goldnplomp, Rosinish and all..
It does seem that the unknown death noted on post #6 is Andrew Halliday Gold b.1841 d.1900 but interestingly he is buried with his 1st cousins family, maybe it was economical as he died a pauper due to chronic bad health issues. But also there seems to be no headstone inscription noted in the churchyard for his father (who died some 42 years earlier) George Gold b.1814 d.1858, or his mother Mary Halliday. It seems its still a mystery where they were both laid to rest..
Also noting, Andrew H Gold 2nd wife was Alice Quin b.1851 ( baptized Oct 5, 1851 Desertcreight, Cookstown, N. Ireland), she died in Garngardhill, Glasgow in 1924. Andrew H's 1st wife was Janet Smith b.1841 d.1877 she was born in Bothwell, and died in Carluke.
I understand his father George Gold died in Cambusnethan, and i do not have proof but Mary Halliday maybe died on Feb 21 1853 possibly in Newmains !
George Gold married a 2nd time after Mary Halliday's passing to Susan/Susanna/ or Shusan Douglas (who was also prev married to Robert Gray) she also died in Cambusnethan in 1904.
Maybe the above helps this discussion a little further.
Graham.
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As amazing as ever, Lodger and the Rootschat team! In relation to the Hallidays, I have a little puzzle on my hands. I have already been helped enormously with my related Hallidays on this site but I don't know if I have asked for this one (if I have, forgive me!)
My ancestor was Robert Halliday, married (probably at Crawford) to Margaret Williamson (b.Crawford -1859, Chapel buried Carluke?) and likely brother to Archibald who married Marion Penman.
Robert and Margaret had fewer children, one of which was my direct ancestor John (1804, Crawford-1853, M. Elizabeth Blair Dick 1807-1875). They also had daughters Janet (1806,Crawford -?) and Violet (C1818,?-1839 Chapel, buried Carluke). I figure they must have had other children between 1806-1818 but perhaps they simply didn't survive.
I have that a "Robert Hallowday" husband of Marion (Margaret?) Williamson, Buried 4 March aged 69 years. "Hallowday" seems to be an unusual spelling of the name but I figure this must be my ancestor Robert Halliday. (Margaret was widowed by 1851) Interestingly the same year (1856) there is another Robert Hallowday age 44 (b about 1807) buried 25/03/1851 629/30 435 Carluke ... Both with the same spelling seems more than coincidental! I have been wondering if he might have also been a child of Robert and Margaret. There is a certain continuity of place since later Halliday descendants appear to have been buried in the New Cambusnethan cemetery.
My question,is there anything in the available records that might shed some like on this little conundrum?
Ever grateful (!)
Ard
PS As far as I know, they were for the most part connected to the Relief Church as well....
PPS note: beyond what has already been revealed by: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=566572.117 ...in case there have been new discoveries? ;-)
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A couple more burials!
GEORGE GOLD, Wishaw, aged 2 years.
Parents - Robert Gold & Margaret Allan.
Interred in the old churchyard, 29th March 1876.
ANDREW GOLD, Wishaw, aged 15 months.
Parents - Andrew Gold & Alice Queen.
Interred in Public Ground, 20th April 1881.
Also, Susan Douglas, aged 84 years, was interred in the old churchyard on 30th July 1904.
The plot was owned by Susan and, as well as her, there are (from when records began) 6 other occupants, all with the surname Wilson.
There is a stone at this plot and the inscription reads -
"Erected by Susan Douglas in memory of her husband Robert Gray who died 2nd August 1854 aged 35 years. Also her brother Alexander who died 5th August 1854 aged 28 years. Sarah Dobson, widow of Joseph Gray, died 3rd August 1854 aged 76 years".
Looks like she lost her husband, her brother and probably her mother-in-law, all within 4 days. Cholera was the killer in 1854, no vaccines in those days!
So, I would imagine that Susan could have buried her 2nd husband in this plot too. It's a great pity the records for 1900 haven't survived and I still think the nameless person in the Gold family plot in 1900 could very well be a still birth.
Ard.
Archibald Halliday & Marion Penman are my nephews' 5 x gt-grandparents. Archibald died at Crossford (Lanarkshire) October 1840 and is buried at Carluke, Marion died at Morningside, Cambusnethan in 1862. They also had a daughter named Violet, born about 1833 in Carluke parish, she married George Brownlie and she died in Hartwood Asylum 1907.
I have no idea who Archibald's parents were, my guess is he was born about 1786 but don't know where. Marion Penman was born 1791 at Crawfordjohn.
Could Archie and Robert's brother have been Thomas Halliday who was married to Marion Brownlie? There is an old lair at Cambusnethan and that couple have a child buried in it, Robert, aged 18 months, died 1840.
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Hi Lodger
Thank you for the your Susan Douglas updates; The local Cholera epidemic seems to have been devastating to the family. But It does seems logical that Susan 2nd husband George Gold is buried in the same plot (unless someone maybe knows differently ?),
The burial location of his 1st wife Mary Halliday b.1815 d. maybe 1853 ... we still don't know! (but i'm currently checking-out the book of local Monumental inscriptions - by Sheila Scott for possible leads on that..)
I looked up the death certificate for Andrew Halliday Gold d.1900, and he died on Feb 19, 1900, so it doesn't match with the inscription for the unnamed - - - - - GOLD, no age given. 4th August 1900.
Maybe it is a still born?
But if it was a child (stillborn) on that family line - buried with Catherine, Andrew and John; as unnamed. i.e. Andrew Gold and Catherine Oman children or family:
In my opinion there are 2 possibilities to the possible unnamed birth, not recorded/registered:
Nathaniel (before he emigrated to Australia, or David Just Gold.. but it doesn't seem likely either had a stillborn child in 1900, or a match for anyone in that families line!
The family history jig-saw is a little difficult to figure out sometime! Keep search for the answers ;) Bye for now..
Cheers
Graham
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Hi Graham,
Sheila Scott's excellent work only covers parishes in the Upper Ward of Lanarkshire and Cambusnethan does not fall into that category. Mary's parents did have a lair in Carluke churchyard (with a stone erected in 1829) but there doesn't seem to be any evidence that Mary is buried there?
If she died at Newmains then the logical place for her would be with her husband's family in Cambusnethan churchyard.
Well done on checking the 1900 death certificate, I'm sure the entry in the burial register denotes a still birth. It's how they are often entered and there is, as you say, no other corresponding death for that date.
There are a few branches of the Gold family in that very large plot, it may be a cousin, or some girl's illegitimate child.
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So many facts to cross reference… it will take me a while to comb through everything.
Here are a few items that stood out upon initial review…
Susan DOUGLAS b. 1823 d.1904 had three husbands. Hugh CLARKSON m. 1838; Robert David GRAY m. 1840; George GOLD m.1856.
There are a number of cases where multiple family members married into same families which I'm sure causes much confusion. For example:
Andrew GOLD b.1812 d.1844 married Isabella MORTON b. abt1813 d.1840 and then Andrew’s sister Elizabeth GOLD b.1816 d.1886 married William MORTON b.1807 d.1864. Isabella MORTON and William MORTON were siblings. This is why there is so much cross over between the GOLD’s and MORTON’s.
Then there was George GOLD b.1846 d.1918 who married Christina ALLAN b.1851 d.1903 and then George’s bother Robert GOLD b.1850 d.1922 married Margaret ALLAN b.1855 d.1899. Margaret ALLAN was Christina ALLAN’s niece. This is why there is so much cross over between the GOLD’s and ALLAN’s.
Then to confuse things even further, Archibald GOLD b.1843 d.1906 married Elizabeth RUSSELL b.1848 d.? and then Archibald’s brother John GOLD b.1853 d.1885 married Henrietta RUSSELL b.1852 d.abt1925. Elizabeth and Henrietta were siblings.
It is insane how intertwined the families of Cambusnethan are. In fact, I discovered that my wife also has family which originate from Cambusnethan and “Yes” my wife and I are related through the marriage of Andrew Clarkson GOLD b. 1892 d.? and Elizabeth CUMMING b.1890 d.1961.
Thank you again for everyone’s insights.
Art
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Hi Art,
That information was very interesting and it explains why half the population of Cambusnethan parish had 11 fingers and webbed feet ;D
I had another trawl through the burial records and found 2 more children.
ANDREW GOLD MILLAR, Muirkirk, aged 9 months.
Parents - John Millar & Rebecca Muir.
Interred in the old churchyard on 26th June 1880.
This corresponds to the entry in the Gold plot book and the interesting thing is the abode. Muirkirk is a village in Ayrshire. A long way to bring a body in those days, although it may have been done by rail, Muirkirk was a mining village and where there was coal there were trains.
Also -
ANDREW GOLD, Wishaw, aged 15 months.
Parents - Andrew Gold & Alice Queen.
Interred in Common Ground, 20th April 1881.
So, this is the second of Andrew & Alice's children that was buried in common (paupers) ground.
Yet another child was brought all the way from Muirkirk to be put in the family plot but 2 children who lived locally were buried with strangers. This, to me, would suggest that Andrew was not in control of the access to the Gold plot and if he wasn't allowed to put his children there, why would he himself be put there?
Going through the records I noticed that a great many of the Gold's lived in the village of Waterloo, I think they all must be connected in some way. I made a list -
John Gold & Janet Kerr, Waterloo, new born child died 1865, also 2 sons, both Andrew, 1873 & 1874.
Moses Fry & Helen Gold, Waterloo, baby died 1867.
Charles Orr & Margaret Gold, Waterloo, baby died 1870.
Andrew Gold & Roseann Armstrong, Ashgillhead (near Waterloo) baby died 1874.
John Gold & Mary Roberts, Waterloo, child James died 1876.
Thomas Gold & Agnes Blackley, Waterloo, child died 1877.
Also -
John Gold & Lillias Clarkson buried 4 sons in 1877, all killed in the awful Blantyre mining disaster.
James aged 33, John aged 28, Benjamin aged 24 and Andrew aged 22. (All but Andrew were married).
John Morton & Agnes Gold had several babies interred in the old churchyard 1860's & 70's.
George Gold & Janet Lawson, still born child 1907.
Andrew Gold died aged 45 years in 1865, parents Andrew Gold & Grace Clarkson.
John Gold & Jane (or Janet) Clarkson had daughter Helen died aged 32 years in 1871. Also son Andrew, a spirit merchant died aged 30 in 1881 and son John died aged 66 in 1899.
John Rae & Helen Gold, child John G. died 1878.
George Wright & Lillias Gold, child died 1881 & son James G. died 1882.
Daniel McFarlane & Margaret Gold, baby died 1866.
That's a lot of Gold's!
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Lot’s of Gold’s indeed! I have yet to piece them all together. You did uncover a couple ‘Gems’ though.
I did not have record of Andrew Gold MILLAR, Muirkirk, aged 9 months. John MILLAR b.1843 d.1879 and Rebecca Kilpatrick Muir b.1847 d.1886 both passed away in Ayrshire; however, all of the children I had record of (outside of the above Andrew) were born in Carluke, Lanarkshire.
I also did not have record of the 1907 still born child of George Gold & Janet Lawson.
Of the Waterloo Gold’s you referenced, only Thomas Halliday GOLD & Agnes French BLACKLEY fall within my family branch. Thomas and Agnes are my paternal Great Grandparents.
I have traced back all of the other Gold lines you referenced and they all converge on Douglas, Lanarkshire (including mine). While I am 99.9% sure these Gold lines are all somehow related, I am not able to connect the other Douglas, Lanarkshire Gold’s to my Andrew GOLD and Elizabeth WEIR b. abt 17449 d.1823 as any connection pre-dates 1750’s. Perhaps one Day I will have a DNA match with one of these distant Gold branches which will allow me to piece together this puzzle.
Thank you again for your time and the abundance of information.
Art
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That information was very interesting and it explains why half the population of Cambusnethan parish had 11 fingers and webbed feet ;D
That's so funny - I'll have to let my cousin know - she's shown me her "webbed toes"!