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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Andro93 on Thursday 18 November 21 14:22 GMT (UK)

Title: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Thursday 18 November 21 14:22 GMT (UK)
Hi everyone. Christine Kleinertz was born in Nord Rhein Westfalen, Germany on 6th February 1891. In about 1920 she married Edward Delfosse,  an Englishman, and they went to London in 1921. I want to find a record of Christine(a)'s birth or baptism, the names of her parents and possible siblings. The 1891 date comes from the 1939 Register. Any help or information will be much appreciated. Andrew Wilson (London SW4).
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Ashtone on Thursday 18 November 21 17:47 GMT (UK)
In about 1920 she married Edward Delfosse, an Englishman, and they went to London in 1921.

Do you have a marriage record? That would have her father's name. Any ideas where they would've married?

Just in case you haven't seen this record although it may be a different chap altogether.

Belgian Refugees
Government Refuge, Tanner Street, Bermondsey
Admissions & Discharges
Delfosse, Edward
Date of birth: 1883 Jun
Occupation: Iron Turner Arms Factory
From where: Grivegnée, Belgium
Date: 1914 Dec 24 to 1914 Dec 28 ("Left institution")

Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: softly softly on Thursday 18 November 21 18:34 GMT (UK)
Edward was born as Edward Joseph Delfosse (mmn Law)in 1882 and dies 1970.

baptism image has his dob which is confirmed on death registration.

Opening post does say he was an Englishman.

John
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Friday 19 November 21 20:40 GMT (UK)
Hillhurst ,  that is very interesting. Many thanks. Can I ask you where that record came from? Andrew
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Friday 19 November 21 20:48 GMT (UK)
Johnhood ,  Yes. That is right. I have traced many of Edward Delfosse's ancestors. It is his German wife who is elusive. She gave birth to one daughter in Germany in early 1921, and four more in London! She never learned English and almost never went out of her house in Hackney and then Rickmansworth. She died in 1961. I have found no trace of her birth, baptism or marriage in German records. Still, there are other clues. Thank you for replying to my first message.
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Friday 19 November 21 20:54 GMT (UK)
Hillhurst,  I forgot to say that they must have married 1919/20 in Germany, or possibly Belgium. Thank you for replying to my first message. Their daughter Martha Delfosse was born in the first weeks of 1921, and later that year Edward with wife and child went to his native city, London.
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: manukarik on Friday 19 November 21 21:37 GMT (UK)
Haven't found much yet, but if this is Martha:

First name(s)    Martha M
Record's year range    1921-1925
Sex    Female
Volume    17
Last name    Delfosse
Line number    106
Birth year    1921-25
Archive reference    BCON
Organisation    Consular/Overseas
Source    Gro Consular Birth Indices (1849 To 1965)
Country    Germany
Record set    British Armed Forces And Overseas Births And Baptisms
Place    Koln
Category    Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Page    539
Subcategory    Civil Births
Archive    General Register Office
Collections from    Great Britain, UK None

then she was either born or registered in Cologne.  Have you tried the GRO for a consular or British Armed Forces Marriage in Cologne? The GRO site isn't so helpful for marriages, but if you have some info they can search for you. Or maybe the above certificate would give you some limited info?
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Friday 19 November 21 21:53 GMT (UK)
manukarik,  many thanks indeed. I must go to National Archives as I discovered there that a great uncle of mine, who was a spy for Britain, married at the consulate in Milan. Martha's niece is sure her Kleinertz grandmother was born in Bonn. The majority of Kleinertz families came from Euskirchen, not far west of Bonn, and there were others at Monheim, to the north of Cologne. Thank you again. Andrew
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: manukarik on Friday 19 November 21 22:00 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the extra info! Good luck in your hunt…
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Ashtone on Saturday 20 November 21 00:13 GMT (UK)
Hillhurst, that is very interesting. Can I ask you where that record came from?

Hi Andrew - apologies for including that Belgian Refugees record. It wasn't until after I posted the details that I realised it couldn't be your chap. But if it helps for future research, the record is on Ancestry. It's in the dataset that has workhouse records: BERMONDSEY BOARD OF GUARDIANS (BBG/573/008/369).

The actual record image states "Belgian Refugees" - which I didn't notice until it was too late. If you know of Belgian ancestors who might be in these records, the overall list is also with the LMA. I can point you to it, if you like.

Interesting about your great uncle being a spy. You can search FindMyPast to see if there is a GRO/Overseas marriage for him in Milan. What year did her marry? Do you have any records for him regarding his spy work?
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Thursday 20 January 22 20:07 GMT (UK)
manukarik,  You helped me a few weeks ago. I and Christine's grandson have now decided that her marriage may have been before the Great War, ie 1912-1914. I have tried many times to access the consular records, without luck. Would you be kind enough to see whether there is a marriage between Edward Delfosse and Christine Kleinertz in those years, probably recorded as taking place in Cologne or elsewhere in the Rheinland. I will be very grateful. Andrew
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: manukarik on Thursday 20 January 22 20:23 GMT (UK)
I've started having another look but not come up with anything yet…
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Thursday 20 January 22 20:25 GMT (UK)
OK, thank you, AW
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: davecapps on Friday 21 January 22 13:32 GMT (UK)
This private tree on Ancestry seems to have your people

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/pt/RequestTreeAccess.aspx?tid=154183088&pid=342040872889

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/pt/RequestTreeAccess.aspx?tid=154183088&pid=342100529623

Dave
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Friday 21 January 22 13:39 GMT (UK)
  davecapps : many thanks for that. I will contact Beverley Murphy later today.
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: davecapps on Friday 21 January 22 13:41 GMT (UK)
if they were protestant you could subscribe to Archion
https://www.archion.de/en/
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: davecapps on Friday 21 January 22 13:44 GMT (UK)
Here´s a Wilhelmine (Christine) Kleinertz, hairdresser, living in the Isabellen strasse 25, Cologne in 1920
7th entry from the top
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Friday 21 January 22 14:06 GMT (UK)
davecapps   thank you! I did know about the lady hairdresser living in Cologne in 1920. As I am helping one of Christine's grandsons I may well sign up to Archion. I had not heard of that site until now, so I appreciate you alerting me to it. Andrew Wilson, London SW4
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: davecapps on Friday 28 January 22 20:02 GMT (UK)
Have you made any progress?
I have found someone in Nova Scotia who is researching the Kleinertz family.
Maybe he can help

Dave
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: davecapps on Friday 28 January 22 20:39 GMT (UK)
sent you a PM
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Sunnyhfx on Saturday 29 January 22 19:28 GMT (UK)
Hi, commenting from Nova Scotia ...
I am researching Kleinertz in the Rhineland (my earliest records are from the late 1600s, Cologne)

I haven't come across Christine Wilhelmine (yet).

Here is what I CAN say: The Kleinertz are (arch)catholic.
The only time you'd find them in protestant church records is when they are in the military for a unit that is administered in a protestant jurisdiction (e.g. 4th Dragoon Regiment is the 1st Silesian Regiment, so there are some entries dealing with Kleinertz, but they are clearly marked as catholic).

Also, I would like to respectfully comment on Dave's find regarding Christine Kleinertz in the 1920 Address Book. That is not the person you are looking for. The "Ww" stands for Witwe, aka Widow. Christine is the widow of Wilhelm Kleinertz (who happened to be a sculptor and she is his second wife). It's very rare that a woman who is married has her own business at that time.

I will keep my eyes open, sure. She might be part of the Euskirchen lineage of Kleinertz, established  in the early 1800s, but she is not documented there and none of the people in that line are documented to have resided in Bonn.

But my suggestion is to do the following:
Given that you have her birthdate, it would be easiest to contact the Landesarchiv fuer Personenstandsdaten in Duisburg. With the name, the date and possibly the locations of Bonn, Cologne, Euskirchen (in that order), it should not be too expensive to obtain the record that we are looking for.

I'd be happy to cooperate on this. :)
PM me if you'd like.

S.
Title: Re: Christine Kleinertz
Post by: Andro93 on Sunday 30 January 22 09:45 GMT (UK)
Dear Dave Capps,  many thanks for your messages. Quite a few Kleinertz families migrated from Germany to the United States. I have got replies to all four emails I sent in German to the archives offices in Cologne, Euskirchen, Bonn and Duisburg. None of them had a Christine/a Kleinertz born in 1891. The six-storey state archives in Cologne collapsed several years ago, causing the loss of an enormous number of records. I am not related to these people, but I do help people with research. It is sure that all Kleinertz families originated in the German Rhineland. Andrew