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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Palmira on Tuesday 09 November 21 09:57 GMT (UK)
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I have previously used RootsChat with much success. My grandmother Kathleen REILLY later HELMAN had a very tempestuous relationship with grandfather James Henry HELMAN. I have never been able to find her birth. She married g'father in London in 1891. She died in Dublin in 1931. She was a convicted criminal with a long history of jail, and Magdalen Laundry sentences for drunkenness and cruelty to her children. IU have documents on most of these. Including the one which shows my mother Rachel HELMAN in jail as a three weeks old baby with Kate in 1903.
During the lockdown in Australia I was at last able to get a clue to her birth place as in one jail record it stated her next of kin as one Mary FULLAM her sister. This rang a HUGE bell for me as I had my DNA analysis done and had three FULLAM people contact me as closely related individuals.
While not knowing Kate's birth place and residence I was able to find Mary FULLAM(nee REILLY)
parents and grandparents all living in Ringsend, Co Dublin. I have been in close contact with two of the FULLAM families and we have established positive connections. BUT!!!!! I still cannot find any record of Kate's birth
Suggestions on how o proceed to obtain this date would be greatly appreciated.
PALMIRA
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If she was from Ringsend she may well have been born in Holles Street hospital and she may have been registered without a first name. Find Mary Reilly Fullam's marriage, her father's first name and then search for Kathleen's birth. Search the unknown Reilly/Riley births for the right father.
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This (top of the page) could be Mary's birth so see if there is an unknown Reilly/Riley with a mother Farley.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03564/2312777.pdf
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That Mary (above) was baptised in Haddington Road July 9th, parents John Reilly/Mary Farrelly. Sponsor Mary Anne Mullen.
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Thanks Dublin ??,Yes I have done all that unknown REILLY bit previously; l just checked all again from 1868 to 1873/ I also knew about Haddington Road church. Really appreciate your input. One of my new FULLAM cousins lives near the church and is going to investigate here; hopefully sooner than later,. It is 10-35 p.m. here n Australia and I am very weary (aged 90).
Palmira Ken
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In your searches, who do you have as parents and siblings?
Mary Reilly’s marriage to John Fullam shows father as John. A witness is Esther Reilly.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10859/5965075.pdf
1891 93/111
St Marylebone, London (both servants)
Esther Reilly 28 yrs b Ireland
Kate Reilly 20 yrs b Ireland
This fits with Kate’s marriage soon after.
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Apologies if you have all this and I haven’t yet found Kate’s birth.
Mary’s residence on her marriage was 36, Bridge Street, Ringsend.
The informant on John Helman’s birth in 1900 was Jane Whittington, 24, Bridge Street
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01997/1768286.pdf
There is a baptism (but I can’t find a civil birth or marriage here) John Whittington 1880 - parents Patrick Whittington and Jane Reilly, 26 Bridge Street, Ringsend. A Godparent - Ann/a Reilly.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01r1p/
I can’t spot these in the censuses but there is a death in 1924 for Jane Whittington, 71 yrs -address Caroline Row which features in your other records.
To summarise, there seems to be a link between Jane Reilly Whittington and Kate Reilly.
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Thank you heywood; appreciate your input.
As far as I can ascertain Kate's siblings are Michael (1859); Esther (1864);Mary (1865); John (1868) and Kate (1870).
Kate's offspring were James Henry (1892-1967); William (1898-98); John (1900-06) and my mother Rachel (1903-1986).
Love to know connection with Jane Whittington (nee REILLY)!
One interesting thing (not relevant to the the research) is Grandfather James Henry HELMAN was born at the Heywood Estate in Ballinakill.
Thanks again for you assistance. RootsChat is a very valuable tool for research.
Regards
PALMIRA (Ken ELDRIDGE)
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Here's Haywood Demesne townland just to the north of Ballinakill.
https://www.townlands.ie/laois/cullenagh/dysartgallen/ballinakill/haywood-demesne/
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As far as I can ascertain Kate's siblings are Michael (1859); Esther (1864);Mary (1865); John (1868) and Kate (1870).
What is the mother’s name for these births?
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Variously Farrelley (Michael BC and Mary BC and Kate {by association NOK jail record sister Mary FULLAM } Farley (John BC) and Esther (Farrelly) by association on Mary and John FULLAM's M/C and 1891 UK Census listed with Kate.
Regards
Ken
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I can see some of those but not Esther’s baptism.
Do you have the details please?
She seems to be relevant - witness to Mary’s marriage and in London with Kate.
Are John and/or Mary Reilly in a census?
Do you have John and Mary Reilly’s deaths?
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Mary;s details for death are:-DEATH ENTRY
Mary FULLAM
Reg No 376 Date 7 January, 1951, 5 Caroline Row
Widow Aged 87 Housewife
Cause of death Myocarditis Syncope
Informant:= Catherine REILLY daughter, of 9 Brighton Terrace, RINGSEND
Date of Registration 16 January, 1951
*********************************************************************
Irish Genealogy KGE 05/2020
Don' have John's DC
Regards
Palmira Ken
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Mary FULLAM is on both 1901 and 1911 Census.
Never found Esther's baptism except for an entry years ago in dublinheritage.ie
Data Searched: Baptism Register
Date Of Birth Date of Baptism Surname Firstname Parish
20-03-1864 27-03-1864 Reilly Esther Clondalkin R.c.
12-06-1859 Reilly Esther St Mary's R.c. but couldn't follow it up.
Regards PALMIRA Ken
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Mary;s details for death are:-DEATH ENTRY
Mary FULLAM
Reg No 376 Date 7 January, 1951, 5 Caroline Row
Widow Aged 87 Housewife
Cause of death Myocarditis Syncope
Informant:= Catherine REILLY daughter, of 9 Brighton Terrace, RINGSEND
Date of Registration 16 January, 1951
???
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1951/04512/4187241.pdf
Date of death: 13th January 1951
Catherine Reilly living at 6 St Patrick's Villas, Ringsend
KG
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John Reilly’s occupation on Mary’s marriage to John Fullam is a Labourer.
The Reilly/ Farley/Farrelly birth records you have for Mary and John, have father John, a Fisherman.
You wrote earlier:
“While not knowing Kate's birth place and residence I was able to find Mary FULLAM(nee REILLY)
parents and grandparents all living in Ringsend, Co Dublin. I have been in close contact with two of the FULLAM families and we have established positive connections. BUT!!!!! I still cannot find any record of Kate's birth”
Do you have John and Mary Reilly in censuses?
I would be hesitant with the Reilly/Farley variant as parents unless there is real evidence to connect them. Apologies if you have this and I have missed it.
Just for interest, I found the Whittington birth - civil record is Frederick ::)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02886/2057636.pdf
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Thanks KG for correction.
Oooooops! Mary's death date is 13 January, 1951. My sincere apologies.
Palmira (K. G. Eldridge)
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Her death notice is very difficult to read, but I will give it a bash...
FULLAM Dublin, 13 January 1951 at her residence 5 Caroline Row, Ringsend, Mary, relict of John Fullam and mother of the Right Reverend Monsignor Thomas Fullam, Satchez (? this placename is unreadable), U.S.A..
Deeply regretted by her loving sons, daughters, sister , relatives and friends. R.I.P.
Remains will be removed tomorrow Sunday to the Church of St. Patrick, Ringsend,
Funeral Monday after 10 o'clock Mass to Glasnevin Cemetery.
**edit
I found a better copy. The US placename is Natchez.
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So Natchez in Mississippi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natchez,_Mississippi
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Oh Dublin 1850!!!
How marvellous that you found this obituary!!
I knew most, BUT burial and funeral details were real gems.
After 50+ years of ignorance of my mother's family I am, since lockdown, now piecing together a most remarkable story.
Thank you so much for your contribution to this saga.
Regards from Down Under
PALMIRA (Ken)
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To Dublin 1850,
I forgot to ask you the source of the Death/Funeral notice for Mary FULLAM.
Would appreciate knowing.
Regards PALMIRA
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Hello Ken,
Sorry it’s me again. In reply #15, I mention my concerns re the Reilly/Farley marriage etc but you haven’t commented.
I am not sure if you have the details re the Reilly parents to Kate and Mary. You have different siblings to the ones I see who are Esther, Ann etc. I saw baptisms for these names with mother Anne but some surnames don’t seem to match. I didn’t post further as you seem to be content with the Farley marriage and children.
John Reilly who married Mary F is a Fisherman on records whilst your records have John as a labourer. Then there are also links with the addresses, Bridge Street and Caroline Row.
There is this death - John Reilly 1883 , labourer, 26 Bridge Street - informant, widow, Anne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06346/4820277.pdf
Here is Anne Reilly’s death - very interesting.
1898, widow of a labourer - address 3 Caroline Row. The informant is her son in law James Henry Helman
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05841/4654405.pdf
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Hi Heywood,
Wow!!!! What a discovery! I was always confused between the Mary REILLY and Ann REILLY and now it seems I have it all wrong. As my grandfather was informant for Ann REILL's death she most certainly was Kate's mother. How that equates with Mary FULLAM to be her sister I can't fathom at the moment.
Many thanks for this revelation of the truth. I am astounded but grateful. Further investigation is now required.
Regards from Down Under.
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What are the details for Kate’s father on her marriage in London?
What is her age and who are the witnesses?
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To Dublin 1850,
I forgot to ask you the source of the Death/Funeral notice for Mary FULLAM.
Would appreciate knowing.
I found it on https://www.irishnewsarchive.com/ a subscription site. The poorer quality one is from the 'Evening Herald' 13 January 1951 and the more legible one was in the 'Sunday Independent' 14 January 1951.
If you would like a screenshot of it, just drop me a PM with an email address.
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Many thanks Dublin 1950. Yes I would like copies.
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
Cheers
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Hi Heywwod,
Here are details:-When married Sixteenth June, 1891
BRIDE
Name Kathleen RIELLY
Age 22 years (?)
Condition Spinster
Residence32 Cavendish Square, Marylebone
Father John RIELLY (deceased)
Rank of father Laborer
Where married St James Church, Spanish Square, George Street
How According to Rites and ceremonies of Catholic Church. By Certificate
Minister Gordon THOMPSON
Witnesses John FALLON, Fannie BURKE
Registrar Frank STOKES, Registrar
Married in the St James Church according to the rites of the Catholic Church by Certificate, by
me Gordon THOMPSON.
James Henry HELMAN signed his name
Kathleen RIELLY made her mark.
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It’s not much help really is it?
Fannie Burke is a servant with Esther and Kate.
I wonder why she didn’t have Esther as a witness but that could be anything.
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It is best to remove your email from the main thread and send it by personal message.
Just click modify to remove the email and click the message icon under the person’s name.
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Heywood,
Heywood, Having looked over everything again I see there is confusion with the names Mary REILLY and Anne REILLY and also FARRELLY and FARLEY. Re the latter I thought it was just a variant of the same name; but now know it isn't.
I now think the John REILLY that I had as brother for Mary and Kate IS NOT SO. The fact that they all lived near one another in Ringsend adds to the confusion.
It would seem to be a fact that Mary and Kate were sisters, even though we can't find Kate's birth nor baptism. The fact that Kate's jail record categorically states NoK Mary FULLAM, sister; is a strong case, Also the fact that three separate members of Mary's family claim strong DNA matches with me is another strong case for connection.
Do you think it is possible that the Anne REILLY on the death certificate, where my grandfather is the informant, is almost certainly Kate's mother, could still be Mary FARRELLY, who, because of the other Mary REILLY called herself Anne? If this was the case it would be an explanation of some of the confusion.
Also you may have noticed in Dublin 1850's death notice from the newspaper it says re Mary FULLAM "her sons, daughters and sister." So one sister was still alive in 1951. It wasn't Kate.(died 1931). Could it be Esther, or another one we don't know about?
I do appreciate your interest in my dilemma and your comments and observations are very valuable to me. So, thank you most sincerely.
PALMIRA (Ken)
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I am confused with the ‘other Mary Reilly’.
Where do you have a record of Mary Reilly as mother to these people?
With regard to the sister in Mary Fullam’s death announcement, it isn’t Esther.
Marriage: Esther O’Reilly 1898 to John Byrne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1898/10406/5789539.pdf
Death of Esther Byrne 1905 - informant Christy Fullam, nephew
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1905/05604/4575427.pdf
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Irish genealoghttps://www.rootschat.com/forum/Themes/genealogy/images/bbc/glow.gify Birth of John REILLY, 1868. Group Registration ID 7742103
SR District/Reg Area Dublin South
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Mary FARLEY.
Found this Mary Reilly (and son John) on 1901 census and her death later in 1901 and assumed this was Mary FARRELLY death's; but now know Kate's mother died in 1898. By the way the address of death was same street where James HELMAN and Kate were living in 1901 Census.
The note about Esther seems to be her despite being O'REILLY, as Christy FULLAM, nephew was certainly one of Mary FULLUM's sons. Her age also seems quite within range.
You are a gem. I thank you again. Even if I remain confused.
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Irish genealoghttps://www.rootschat.com/forum/Themes/genealogy/images/bbc/glow.gify Birth of John REILLY, 1868. Group Registration ID 7742103
SR District/Reg Area Dublin South
Sex N/R
Mother's Birth Mary FARLEY.
Found this Mary Reilly (and son John) on 1901 census and her death later in 1901 and assumed this was Mary FARRELLY death's; but now know Kate's mother died in 1898. By the way the address of death was same street where James HELMAN and Kate were living in 1901 Census.
Which death is the same address as the Helmans in 1901?
They are living in Fitzwilliam Street then.
Is this Mary Reilly’s death? Address Whitethorn Lane
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1901/05712/4611423.pdf
I can’t see Mary and son John in 1901.
John’s birth - address The Point
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03442/2263964.pdf
I am confused re you having Mary as a possibility family member. I just wonder where you think she fits in.
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When you had Mary as mother, I saw this marriage but just put it to the back of my mind.
It is for Ann Reilly in 1879 with parents John and Ann. Unfortunately, the priest does not record the mothers’ maiden names at that time. Here is the parish record.
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=haddington_road_mf_1849-1907_ma_0493
And civil record
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1879/11067/8049189.pdf
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There are these baptisms for names we have associated with the family.
All at Haddington Road. That was mentioned earlier but don’t know if it is the right area.
10th June 1853 - Jane - parents John and Anne Reilly
13th April 1856 - Anne - parents John and Anne Reilly
12th June 1859 - Esther- parents John Reilly and Anne Doyle
26th June 1862 - Mary - parents John Reilly and Anne Doyle
Then there are these who should have civil records to compare and check addresses but I can’t see them.
23rd June 1866 - Catherine - parents John Reilly and Anne Byrne
24th October 1869 - Sarah Reilly - parents John Reilly and Anne Connor
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heywood,
See below what I have been basing my parentage for Mary REILLY later FULLAM. The births, baptism and marriages seemed to be OK at the time, But now seem in error.
First name(s) Mary Last name REILLY
Birth year - 1865
Baptism year 1865 Baptism date 09 Jul 1865
Parish Haddington Road
Alternative parish names Haddington Road, Dublin, Irishtown, St. Mary's
Diocese Dublin County Dublin Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) John Father's last name REILLY
Mother's first name(s) Mary Mother's last name FARRELLY
Sponsor Mary MULLIN
Repository National Library of Ireland
National Library of Ireland register http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633834#page/1/mode/1up
FindMyPast 05/2020 KGE.
Your notes for Mary, Anne, Esther and Jane with parents John REILLY and Anne DOYLE make much more sense, especially in light of the D/C for Anne REILLY where James H. HELMAN is informant.
How did you obtain this information. I only have access to Irish Genealogy and FindMyPast.
I again am so indebted to you for your continued patience and assistance to me. Really much appreciated.
PALMIRA
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I found those through indexes on Ancestry but looking today, they are not that obvious. I used Haddington Road as a key word.
I have just looked for Esther who does appear - no transcription on Irish Genealogy - church records.
Here she is in parish records. I think they are transcribed records.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633834#page/141/mode/1up
Jane is here
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633834#page/59/mode/1up
I hope this helps
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People from Ringsend would have been baptised often in Westland Row (St. Andrew's) or Haddington Road (St. Mary's).
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The first couple of registers labelled as Haddington Road on the NLI website are actually from 'The Parish of St. Mary's, Irishtown and Donnybrook' , St. Mary's Haddington Road only became a separate parish in the 1870s
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heywood,
My sincere thanks once again. Haddington Road church is the right area.
I can't find a marriage for John REILLY and Anne DOYLE,(except one for 1873 which is far too late).
It seems ancestry is more profitable than FindMyPast!
Kate is still a mystery as well. It is strange that some of these records are not on Irish Genealogy and one would think they should be.
Pardon me asking but are you male or female? You are certainly a huge asset to RootsChat. I hope others are as thrilled with your assistance as I am.
Palmira
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Thank you, that’s very kind of you.
It is frustrating that we can’t find some people or be sure of the connections, but you do have various links now with addresses, witnesses, death informants and then, of course, those DNA results.
Thank you, also, to athacliath62. I had used Haddington Road because it was mentioned earlier in the thread but had seen Donnybrook in the records. athacliath62 and dublin1850 are more familiar with those parishes and most helpful.
I think Find my Past has indexes to those records too. Sometimes it is a case of just trying with various methods of searching till one works. ;)
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heywood,
Just checking the Whittington details for 1880 and found that in Irish Genealogy there are two entries one a baptism (Church records) and one a civil birth which seem to have similar, but very different information especially re names. Jane REILLY being mentioned in both!
Would appreciate your comments re this.
Palmira
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Yes, I mentioned that earlier - the different names.
I thought it might be that the child was illegitimate and father’s name was invented. I could not find a marriage.
However, I have just found this record - the death of Sarah Ann Whittington, 10 months in 1876 with mother Jane and ‘daughter of a Sailor’.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1876/020597/7226949.pdf
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There is a Sarah Ann Whittington b 1875, Chepstow with a mmn Riley :-\