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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: CarlyMaree11 on Monday 08 November 21 11:12 GMT (UK)
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I'm currently searching for a record of my great great grandfathers birth. From what I have researched he was born in Sydney nsw 1881. On his death certificate it has his mother as Elizabeth Anne Turner and father is Frederick Gately stuart, who was born Frederick Gately Townsend. I'm not sure about the name change on his behalf either. However, on fredricks death certificate Frank stuart is not listed as a son of his, only his children from his first marriage in England.
From what I have found, Frederick and Elizabeth were married in syd 1908, several years after Franks birth and his sister Maud (1882) and brother Frederick (1888) I'm so confused! On Fredericks birth certificate it says his father was Frederick gately stuart but his mother was Annie Turner - when I looked into this I assumed Elizabeth was going by Annie ( again, not sure why the name change) as she was listed at the address as Elizabeth on one record and Annie on another. It also stated they were married in England roughly around 1880 but I can't find any such record, only the marriage in 1908.
Really I'm after more evidence that yes they were definitely his parents which a birth certificate would verify, but I'm also curious why Frank wasn't on Fredericks death certificate, and why Frederick changed his name from Townsend to Stuart to begin with ( i know stuart was his mother's maiden name)
Sorry I hope that makes sense it's been a massive rabbit hole!
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Hi Carly,
It sounds like Frederick and Elizabeth Anne / Annie were for whatever reason unable or didn't manage to marry in England. You mention a "first marriage in England" so perhaps they were unable to legally marry.
I can't find "Frederick Gately Townsend" in England. There is a Frederick Townsend born in about 1840 in Cornwall, who was married to an Elizabeth by the 1871 census.
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ has some references for a Frederick that might be of interest
Published: Tuesday 12 October 1880
Newspaper: Western Morning News
- bankruptcy of Frederick Townsend, draper, grocer, general dealer
Published: Saturday 06 November 1880
Newspaper: Cornish & Devon Post
- Elizabeth Townsend takes out a protection order against Frederick her husband, who had left her without cause.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27X-WPZC
- Elizabeth living "married" in Cornwall.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WH73-NW2
So probably Frederick took the name Stuart to avoid his creditors and his wife back in England. Perhaps he ran off with Annie Turner, or met her in Sydney?
I would look at -
The birth record for brother Frederick, 1888 - any indication of "previous children of marriage"?
The 1908 marriage - what are the details of Annie / Elizabeth Annie?
The death of Frederick - who gave the information? Were all of Frank, Maud, and Frederick left off? Very unusual in a case like this to report the children of the first marriage...
See if you can put together a timeline of when Frederick got to Sydney and what Annie/Elizabeth Turner was doing in her earlier years - when did they meet? Perhaps Frank was from a previous relationship of Annies?
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Hi,
Welcome to the best family history forum.
I have some questions.....
On that 1888 birth cert for Frederick, from that document what does that document actually record :
:) for the informant .... their name, address, relationship....
:) for the older siblings ....both those then alive and any who were already deceased
:) what date of birth for baby
:) what name, age, occupation for baby's father
:) what name, maiden name, age for baby's mother
:) when and where married.
Do not be surprised if some of those responses differ from other official records you may have. In that era the information was provided verbally ... so it depended on how the question was asked, how busy the questioner was, who was answering the questions, was baby present or not (a new baby present when registering a birth can be a huge distraction at a busy shop front style counter ! )
Lots of questions, but hopefully these can help you unravel some confusion. I see nothing wrong with the surname change, not unusual in that era in NSW.
JM.
I'm currently searching for a record of my great great grandfathers birth. From what I have researched he was born in Sydney nsw 1881. On his death certificate it has his mother as Elizabeth Anne Turner and father is Frederick Gately stuart, who was born Frederick Gately Townsend. I'm not sure about the name change on his behalf either. However, on fredricks death certificate Frank stuart is not listed as a son of his, only his children from his first marriage in England.
From what I have found, Frederick and Elizabeth were married in syd 1908, several years after Franks birth and his sister Maud (1882) and brother Frederick (1888) I'm so confused! On Fredericks birth certificate it says his father was Frederick gately stuart but his mother was Annie Turner - when I looked into this I assumed Elizabeth was going by Annie ( again, not sure why the name change) as she was listed at the address as Elizabeth on one record and Annie on another. It also stated they were married in England roughly around 1880 but I can't find any such record, only the marriage in 1908.
Really I'm after more evidence that yes they were definitely his parents which a birth certificate would verify, but I'm also curious why Frank wasn't on Fredericks death certificate, and why Frederick changed his name from Townsend to Stuart to begin with ( i know stuart was his mother's maiden name)
Sorry I hope that makes sense it's been a massive rabbit hole!
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Hi, thanks so much for your replies!
From what i can tell that is my Frederick re: bankruptcy and wife desertion of Elizabeth. He married an Elizabeth Jackman in England and they had I think 5-6 children. These children are on his death certificate however under the marriage to Elizabeth Anne Turner it says no issue. Frank stuart was however the informant on Fredericks death certificate.
I am struggling to find much info on Frederick when he changed to Stuart, can't seem to find his passage over to Australia ect. Elizabeth Turner is proving to be much the same, her death certificate states only a father's name but that she was born in England too.
Now with Fredericks birth record;
- informant was Annie Stuart, mother, at 160 Palmer Street, Sydney.
- siblings it just has previous issue (under marriage details) 2 boys 1 girl living. That's it.
- d.o.b is 17th March 1888
- father Frederick Stuart, age 48, occupation Hosiery manufacturer. Born England.
- mother Annie Turner, age 34. Born England.
- marriage states 1st May 1880, England.
Thanks so much for the help I really appreciate it
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Is this your family?
BDM NSW
1230/1888 STUART Frederick W parents Frederick / Annie @ Sydney
marriage
8162/1901 PLUMMER William E marr. STUART Maud @ Sydney
death
11984/1912 STUART Frederick G parents John / Augusta @ Paddington (4 Jun)
14550/1930 STUART Frank parents Frederick G / Elizabeth @ Waverley
18908/1932 STUART Elizabeth A parents John (78 yrs North Sydney)
@ North Sydney (26 Sep)
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14550/1930 STUART Frank parents Frederick G / Elizabeth @ Waverley
" On his death certificate it has his mother as Elizabeth Anne TURNER and father is Frederick Gately STUART who was born Frederick Gately TOWNSEND."
Are you seeing, on the 1930 death certificate, that father Frederick is identified with two family names, STUART and TOWNSEND?
Who is the informant on this death certificate?
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Yes, that's my family :)
Yes, on Fredericks death certificate he is identified as both surnames. it has informant as Elizabeth A Stuart
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16718704 SMH 1 Oct 1930.
Frank STUART aged 49, died at his home. Family members named there.
14550/1930 STUART Frank parents Frederick G / Elizabeth @ Waverley
I confirm the Date of Death as 29 September, 1930.
JM
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I've also just received the death certificate for Maud, it has father as Frederick Stuart, mother as Elizabeth Ann Turner (altered from Annie Stuart) and she was born in wooloomooloo 1882.
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14550/1930 STUART Frank parents Frederick G / Elizabeth @ Waverley
Can you please list all the information on this certificate. Everything please.
11984/1912 STUART Frederick G parents John / Augusta @ Paddington (4 Jun)
Can you please list all the information on this certificate. Everything please.
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What certificates do you have for BDM events for the people named here, and relevant to your research.
Using NSW BDM index I am not seeing the 1908 marriage. Can you identify it please ie registration number.
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Ancestry Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011
21 Oct 1901 St Peters Church Woolloomooloo
STUART Maud spinster b. Sydney NSW daughter at home 19y
Res: 82 Womerah Ave Darlinghurst
Father: Frederick Gately STUART commercial traveller
Mother: Elizabeth Anne TURNER
PLUMMER William Edward bachelor b. Berkshire England moulder 31y
Res: 82 Womerah Ave Darlinghurst
Father: George Samuel PLUMMER (dec) painter
Mother: Sarah Jane NEWMAN (dec)
Witnesses Arthur W PHILLIP* May SEI*GER
Consent of father William Gately STUART is recorded but not his signature.
all named use their signature.
The Sun 13 Feb 1911 p5 (dog bites man story)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/221588834?
....Reginald Laurie STUART who lives in Womerah Avenue Darlinghurst......
NSW BDM death
28379/1961 STUART Reginald Laurie parents Frederick Gorling / Emma @ Sydney
A long shot.....GORLING might be best try at transcribing.....and might be variation of GATELEY...
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So the registration number for Frederick and Elizabeth marriage is 139/1908. I don't have the certificate and couldn't order it, I could just see on ancestry there was a marriage so I was going off that.
I had gone down the avenue of looking into Frederick Garling as that was what was coming up first when I started researching however it seems to be a different person.
I'll go get the details of the other BDM certs I have and post up now
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Using the "search by number" option, finds -
139/1908 STUART Frederick G marr. TURNER Elizabeth A @ Sydney
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When I put that in to BDM it just says it's there but not available to order
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When I put that in to BDM it just says it's there but not available to order
No, it means that they have not yet made a pdf copy. You can order, and they will make a pdf then.
JM
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When I put that in to BDM it just says it's there but not available to order
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Now with Fredericks birth record;
- informant was Annie Stuart, mother, at 160 Palmer Street, Sydney.
- siblings it just has previous issue (under marriage details) 2 boys 1 girl living. That's it.
- d.o.b is 17th March 1888
- father Frederick Stuart, age 48, occupation Hosiery manufacturer. Born England.
- mother Annie Turner, age 34. Born England.
- marriage states 1st May 1880, England.
Thanks so much for the help I really appreciate it
Previous issue means prior to this.
So there seems to be a son not described yet.
Number 1 child-Frank 1881
Number 2 child -Maud 1882
Number 4 child -Frederick (jnr) 1888
A boy is missing
I am surprised that Frederick Gately STUART is listed on the certificate of his son Frederick, as a hosiery manufacturer. He was in fact a cordial manufacturer.
Although the spelling of his surname is not correct, it is likely to be him I think
1892
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/235966430
An earlier sighting as cordial maker at Crystal Fountain, but this time without the distinctive middle name. 1883
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107232793
In 1879 the National Archives Australia shows the registration of a trade mark for the Crystal Fountain in the name of C. Cameron and Maurice Lazarus.
This item a news clip for the sale of the Crystal Fountain Company from above 2 men .
Feb 1880.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13442193
The 1885 a Sands Directory listing has him at 160 Palmer Street a cordial manufacturer
Sue
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For your interest, though not directly linked to his father, there is a digitised WW1 record for Frederick (jnr)
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx
His mother was his NOK and her address in 1916 was "Waratah" Danyar/Dangar Street. He was a 28 year old plasterer. Church of England.
He deserted in France 1918.
In 1934, a letter from him asks for his medals to which he believes he is entitled.
His address is 79 Berry St. North Sydney. The Dept advises by return mail, that desertion actually disqualifies a serviceman from awards!!
He returned to Australia per Barradine in 1921 with a wife.
Sue
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Further to my reply #17,I just spotted this which clearly specifies the date of Transfer of the trade mark of Crystal fountain to Frederick STUART as 12th Nov. 1880.
So definitely in Aust then I would say.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222202887
Sue
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For your interest, though not directly linked to his father, there is a digitised WW1 record for Frederick (jnr)
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx
His mother was his NOK and her address in 1916 was "Waratah" Danyar/Dangar Street. He was a 28 year old plasterer. Church of England.
He deserted in France 1918.
In 1934, a letter from him asks for his medals to which he believes he is entitled.
His address is 79 Berry St. North Sydney. The Dept advises by return mail, that desertion actually disqualifies a serviceman from awards!!
That's really interesting. I'm not gonna lie they were a bit of a bad bunch. I have seen a few gaol records of Frank for embezzlement, forgery and bigamy haha!
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So looking at reply my #17, had you any further information re the Cordial Factory?
Sue
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14550/1930 STUART Frank parents Frederick G / Elizabeth @ Waverley
Name: Frank Stuart
D.O.D: 29 sept 1930
Place: 29 Francis St, Waverley
Occupation: company secretary
Sex: male
Age: 49
Place of birth: Sydney NSW
Fathers name: Frederick Gellately Stuart
Occupation: commercial traveller
Mothers name: Elizabeth Ann Turner
Place of marriage: Darlinghurst, Sydney
Age at marriage: 31
Name of spouse: Mildred May Abbott
Children of marriage: Kenneth K 17, Brian F 15, Bruce R 11, Frank B 10, none deceased.
Informant: W J Stewart, no relation, 1 Francis St,Bondi
Cause of death: Arterio sclerosis, thrombosis of coronary artery
Medical attendant: Hugh Hunter
Date last seen: 24 Sept 1930
Date of burial: 30 Sep 1930
Place of burial: cremated in the Rookwood cemetery at the crematorium
Minister & Religion: J Paul Dryland TH.Schol, Church of England
Undertaker: Wood Coffill Limited
Witnesses: W J Stewart, H Wilson
Registered: 29 Sep 1930
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No I think had only seen the transfer of the business over to Frederick, but that was about it
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Thank you for the information at reply # 22, death certificate of Frank STUART d. 1930.
What is the certificate that records two family name - STUART and TOWNSEND?
Can you please list all the information on the certificate that records two family name - STUART and TOWNSEND?
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11984/1912
Name: Frederick Townsend, known as Frederick Gately Stuart
D.O.D: 4 Jun 1912
Place: 41 Stafford St, Sydney
Occupation: commercial traveller
Sex: male
Age: 72
Place of birth: England
Time in Aust colonies: 31 1/2 years N.S.W
Fathers name: John Townsend
Occupation: farmer (as believed)
Mothers name: Augusta A Stuart
Place of marriage:
1. Cornwall, England
2. Sydney, NSW
Age at marriage:
1. Unknown
2. 68
Name of spouse:
1. Elizabeth Jackman
2. Elizabeth Ann Turner
Children of marriage:
1. Frederick, Hedley, Augusta, Lily living (ages unknown) none deceased (as believed)
2. No issue
Informant: Elizabeth A Stuart, widow, 41 Stafford Street, Paddington
Cause of death: degeneration of cardiac muscle, acute dilation of heart
Medical attendent: G H Walton Smith
Date last seen: 12 May 1912
Date of burial: 5 Jun 1912
Place of burial: Church of England Cemetary Rookwood
Minister & Religion: F C Williams, Church of England
Undertaker: Wood Coffill and Company
Witnesses: Frank Stuart, Cornel Osmond
Registered: 5 Jul 1912 - Paddington
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GRO births
TOWNSEND Frederick Steuart mms JACKMAN
1870 MarQ Tavistock Vol 05B Page 387
TOWNSEND Augusta Mary Stuart mms. JACKMAN
1871 SepQ Tavistock Vol 05B Page 363
TOWNSEND Frederick mms. JACKMAN
1874 DecQ Tavistock Vol 05B Page 352
TOWNSEND Lilian Annie mms. JACKMAN
1877 SepQ Tavistock Vol 05B Page 362
TOWNSEND Hedley Stwart mms. JACKMAN
1880 SepQ Tavistock Vol 05B Page 378
FreeBDM MarQ 1865 Tavistock Vol 5b page 559
TOWNSEND Frederick x JACKMAN Elizabeth
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England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
TOWNSEND Elizabeth of "Gunnislake" Calstock Cornwall widow, died 24 July 1899 administration Bodmin 9 August to Augusta Mary Stuart PARKEN (wife of Alfred PARKEN)
I think that Frederick TOWNSEND left for Australia with Elizabeth Ann TURNER, a local girl. Elizabeth knew his family from Cornwall. Years in the colony, 31 1/2 at June 1912, would apply to her as well.
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No I think had only seen the transfer of the business over to Frederick, but that was about it
He is a cordial manufacturer, not hosiery.
Can you look at the document (Frederick jnr 's birth certificate) and confirm this?
Also can you also look at the numeral describing the number of previous children (before Frederick) on the same certificate. Does it say 2 boys and 1 girl or...?
Sue
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GRO birth
TOWNSEND, Frederick mms. TURNER
1881 SepQ Crediton Vol 05B Page 405
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Yep, it says Hosiery manufacturer. Which is odd!
And yes it says 2 boys and 1 girl
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Ohhh thanks! I assumed that must have been the case re Frederick with the name change and leaving his first wife!
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Hi
I am having some difficulties with getting this to flow well.
Frederick Gately TOWNSEND is declared bankrupt in 1880 in UK and his wife Elizabeth (presumably nee Jackman) alleges desertion the next month in 1880.
A woman surnamed Turner, (presumably Elizabeth Ann) has a son named Frederick in Sept quarter 1881 in Devon UK.
Meanwhile, in Australia in Nov. 1880 Frederick (now) STUART takes the transfer and management of a cordial manufacturing business, Crystal Fountain. Despite the fact he is a bankrupt.
Allegedly, in Australia in 1882, Maud, a child of this couple ,whose birth registration I do not see, is born followed in 1888 by Frederick, whose first name has been used once for the first born in England , while Frederick the firstborn is now known as Frank. ???
Sue
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Yes it's all very odd isn't it! I couldn't get my head around it lol
So do you think my Frank Stuart was actually born Frederick in UK?
I also don't know why the children of Elizabeth and Frederick weren't listed as his children on his death certificate?
Thank you all so much for your help I definitely couldn't do it myself
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I am not so concerned about his children with TURNER not being listed.
The requirement is-
List the children of the marriages -
As all the (mother TURNER) children were born outside the marriage, they are not required to be listed strictly speaking.
Sue
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Ohhhhhh right I understand, I guess makes sense, it was throwing me off so much!
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What certificates do you have for BDM events for the people named so far, and relevant to your research. I think we can account for these, so far -
NSW BDM
1230/1888 STUART Frederick W parents Frederick / Annie @ Sydney (birth) reply # 3
Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011
STUART Frederick Stuart b. 25 Jan 1896 bapt 8 Apr 1896 St Mark Darling Point
parents Frederick STUART, labourer, Elizabeth Bowes Terrace Cameron Street
(no birth to see on NSW BDM Index?)
8162/1901 STUART Maud marr. PLUMMER William E @ Sydney (marriage)
(see Ancestry Sydney, Australia, Anglican Parish Registers, 1814-2011 and my reply #11
2655/1907 PLUMMER Maud parents Frederick G / Elizabeth A @ Rockdale (death)
11984/1912 TOWNSEND Frederick parents John / Augusta @ Paddington (death) reply # 25
4550/1930 STUART Frank parents Frederick G / Elizabeth @ Waverley (death) reply # 32
Can you please list everything on these certificates that you have -
1230/1888 STUART Frederick W parents Frederick / Annie @ Sydney
2655/1907 PLUMMER Maud parents Frederick G / Elizabeth A @ Rockdale (death)
Can you please identify your certificates as being an image of a handwritten document, or, a typed transcription.
The document with occupation "hosiery manufacturer" - is this a transcription?
I would be surprised to see someone described as hosiery manufacturer unless they owned a factory.
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Why marry in 1908 ... To make sure you have an NSW official record to submit to claim the Old Age Pension. (The official NSW record included the then ages of both the bride and the groom, so a certified copy of the official record gives the full names, including nee name, the then usual addresses, and the then ages of the bride and groom, plus information about their own origins, and their parents too).
https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/age-and-invalid-pensions
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14940513 SMH 6 June 1908
As an aside .... I notice that Coastal Defence got £250,000 and Invalid & Old Age Pension got THREE times that ! ... £750,000.
JM
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Yes the information I have has come from typed transcriptions. I've also ordered the 1908 marriage certificate so when that comes through I will share that Information.
1907/2655
Name: Maud Plummer
D.O.D: 14 Mar 1907
Place: Terry St Arncliffe
Sex: female
Age: 24
Place of birth: Woolloomooloo Sydney
Fathers name: Frederick Gately Stuart
Fathers occupation: Commercial traveller
Mothers name: Elizabeth Anne Turner (altered from Annie Turner)
Place of marriage: Darlinghurst, Sydney
Age at marriage: 19
Name of spouse: William Edward Plummer
Children of marriage: George F 4, Edward K 2 months, living, none deceased
Informant: W E Plummer, husband, Terry St Arncliffe
Cause of Death:
1. Pthisis Pulmonaris
2. Heart Failure
Length of Illness:
1. 12 months
2. 1 hour
Medical Attendant: Ernest A Woodward
Date last seen: 13 Mar 1907
Date if burial: 15 Mar 1907
Place of burial: Church of England cemetary Sutherland
Minister of religion: H R A Wilson, Anglican
Undertaker: Charles Kinsella
Witness: M Hardy, P Sommer
Registered: 14 Mar 1907 - Rockdale
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Your reply #3 suggests that you have this death certificate -
18908/1932 STUART Elizabeth A parents John (78 yrs North Sydney)
@ North Sydney (26 Sep)
Can you list everything on this certificate.
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18908/1932
Name: Elizabeth Ann Stuart
D.O.D: 26 Sep 1932
Place: 83 Berry St, Municipality of North Sydney
Occupation: old age pensioner
Sex: Female
Age: 78
Place of Birth: Tavistock, England
Time in Aust Colonies: NSW 50 years
Fathers Name: John Turner
Fathers Occupation: (none recorded)
Mothers Name: (none recorded)
Place of Marriage: England
Age at Marriage: about 27
Name of Spouse: Frederick Gately Stuart
Children of Marriage: Frederick W 44, Living; 1 Male, 1 Female deceased
Informant: F W Stuart, Son, 81 Berry St North Sydney
Cause of Death: Chronic Myocarditis, Chronic Brights Disease
Medical Attendant: W B Studdy
Date Last Seen: 26 Sep 1932
Date of Burial: 27 Sep 1932
Place of Burial: Church of England Cemetary Rookwood
Minister & Religion: J F Chapple Church of England
Undertaker: A E Secombe, Employed by Motor Funerals Ltd
Witnesses: A B Kennedy, Max B Walker
Registered: 1 Oct 1932- North Sydney
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The certificate for the death of Elizabeth Ann STUART where her son is the informant is interesting especially in the date and place of her marriage.
Either young Frederick, in his passing on of the information for the death registration, believed the story about the English marriage which placed the births of his siblings and himself inside the marriage.
OR
It was a family secret faithfully preserved to the grave!
I tend to think the former, the children were lied to.
They were surnamed STUART. They believed their parents were married at the time of their births and they were not told of the 1908 Australian event.
Sue
ADDING
Also indication that Elizabeth arrived 1882
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So Frank would have been born in England then, not NSW, even though on all his gaol records it says native of NSW? I guess it was probably very easy back then to just say you were born wherever, right?
I couldn't seem to find the birth record of 'Frederick' (frank) Townsend in England, I found a few others but none with an Elizabeth/Annie Turner as mother.
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I couldn't seem to find the birth record of 'Frederick' (frank) Townsend in England, I found a few others but none with an Elizabeth/Annie Turner as mother.
It is there as previously provided by wivenhoe.
On freeBMD too.
Sue
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There is every chance that Frank thought he was born in NS
So Frank would have been born in England then, not NSW, even though on all his gaol records it says native of NSW? I guess it was probably very easy back then to just say you were born wherever, right?
Yes, and it was very easy back then to believe that your parents were married in England and that you were born after they had arrived in NSW. When he provides information to the police about himself he is most likely believing that he is being truthful, as the penalty for perjury could include additional time and hard labour too. That system of trust remained throughout NSW until perhaps the late 1980s... when Quintex collapsed and its principal fled Australia on a false passport and associated papers. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qintex and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Skase
That prompted the introduction of the 100 points needed for ID purposes.
JM
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Oh wow, there you go!
There was a Frederick/Frank Townsend that kept popping up in gaol records when I was researching Frank's Stuarts criminal activity, I might have to go back now and could possibly find the missing gaps I have, including how he was arrested in New Zealand but yet I couldn't work out how he had gotten there to start with haha
I've also found that birth certificate as well, thank you!!
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While I am not disputing that the birth of one Frederick TOWNSEND mms TURNER found by wivenhoe is very possibly the man, this birth has caught my eye for consideration also
TOWNSEND, FRANK -
GRO Ref 1881 D Quarter
KINGS NORTON
Volume 06C Page 443
No mms so were assume illegitimate
Sue
ADDING
Seems a bit far from the location of other information ???
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Hmmm I'll go have a look at it now, thank you
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A longshot thought here ::)
Looking for the possible family of Elizabeth Ann (nee TURNER) who it is stated has a father named John TURNER.
Following from Jorose's 1891 census finding- listed above-of Elizabeth TOWNSEND married without husband present,, we have an earlier sighting
1881 census for the same family.
Elizabeth TOWNSEND and her children. (No Frederick)
Their address is 9 Commercial Road Calstock.
I find also a family headed by John TURNER. He is a postmaster aged 48 with several children, not including one named Elizabeth Ann. He is married to married to Eliza Jane.
His address is 3 Fore Street Calstock.
I suggest you use Google maps to see the proximity of these 2 addresses.
Really just a few steps I think.
Sue
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Ah Yes!
I have just found the TURNER family in 1871 and Elizabeth Ann is one of the children ;D
Elizabeth Ann TURNER
Age 14
Born1857
Relation to head Daughter
Where born Chilsworthy, Cornwall, England
Civil parish Calstock
Town Gunnis Lake
County Cornwall
Registration district Tavistock
ED, institution, or vessel17
Household schedule number:171
Piece:2145 /Folio101 /Page number34
Household Members
John TURNER 38 Head
Elizabeth Jane TURNER 37 Wife
Elizabeth Ann TURNER 14 Daughter
William Henry TURNER 12 Son
Janes TURNER 7 Daughter
John Peardon20 Apprentice
John is an outfitter and lives at a Tailors Shop in the village.
Sue
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See the TURNER family, father John born Winkleigh, Census 1881.
Nephew COLE Samuel (mms. TOWNSEND, GRO)
Nephew COLE George (mms. WOOLCOCK, GRO)
Niece WOOLCOCK Jane.
I think the mother of Elizabeth Annie on the marriage certificate, NSW, 1882, might be WILCOCKS.
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Thank you all! Lots for me to have a look at.
I have a question, there is another family in a similar area and timeframe that have a John Turner with a daughter Elizabeth Anne Turner.
How do you work out without knowing her mother's name, which one is the right one?
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Thank you all! Lots for me to have a look at.
I have a question, there is another family in a similar area and timeframe that have a John Turner with a daughter Elizabeth Anne Turner.
How do you work out without knowing her mother's name, which one is the right one?
Please be specific in your sighting.
Where is the other family you mention?
Please either link your source or type up all details.
Regarding which will be the correct family it will be a bringing together of documentary evidence and location plus other circumstances. Deduction.
Sue
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Anyhow, as wivenhoe suspected, this is likely the marriage of the parents of Elizabeth Ann TURNER
Marriages Jun 1854
TURNER John
WILLCOCKS Elizabeth Jane
Stoke D. 5b 531
Sue
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I think what you have found seems to be my Elizabeth, but here is the other one I found anyway from an 1871 census.
Name: Elizabeth A Turner
Age: 16
Est. Birth year: 1855
Relation to head: Daughter
Where born: Tormsham Torquay, Devon England
Civil Parish: Torquay
Town: Torquay
Country: Devon, England
Registration district: Newton Abbott
ED, Institution or vessel: 5a
Household schedule number: 151
Piece: 2086
Folio:18
Page: 28
Anne Turner 41, wife
John Turner 40, head
Elizabeth A Turner 16, Daughter
George Turner 11, Son
Robert S Turner 8, Son
Caroline S Turner 6, Daughter
John Turner 3, Son
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My Elizabeth has a death date of 1932 at 78 years old so would have a birth date of 1854?
Or could you allow a few years either way for error?
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The informant, Frederick her son stated born TAVISTOCK.
He may not have actually known his mother's age.
From the information he gave, he had not ever seen the marriage certificate.
Sister Maud was dead, and so probably was brother Frank and so no-one to check things with.
All speculation and the marriage certificate may or may not clarify things.
There was a lot of deception going on, so difficult to filter out the truth.
Sue
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Yes makes sense, hopefully when the marriage certificate comes it does help clear things up nor make things messier
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At reply #3 -
For birth certificate, Frederick STUART,1888, informant is mother Annie TURNER.
Annie is giving information about herself, and records her age as 34 years.
That would be more credible than anything recorded about Annie after her death.
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That age would match with the record on her death certificate, both would have her born 1854
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This looks like her birth
TURNER, Elizabeth Ann
mms WOOLCOCKS
GRO Reference:
1856 J Quarter
LISKEARD
Volume 05C Page 75
Sue
ADDING
She possibly thought she was born in Tavistock as that is where her family relocated to
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And 2 of her siblings
TURNER, William Henry
Mms WOOLCOCK
GRO Reference 1859 J Quarter
LISKEARD Volume 05C Page 76
TURNER, Jane
mms WILCOCK
GRO Reference 1864
M Quarter
TAVISTOCK Volume 05B Page 384
So it looks as if the family moved to Tavistock when Elizabeth Ann was a young girl.
Sue
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Oh thank you!