RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Mayo => Topic started by: joan on Thursday 04 November 21 17:51 GMT (UK)
-
Can anyone tell me if there is anyway I can check on two sisters that were sent to St.Columba’s industrial school, Westport in 1879 they were only 5 and 3 at the time mother was dead and their father should have been around, the girls were sent there because they were caught begging in Westport. The younger daughter Mary Anne Browne died aged 6 presumably still in St. Columba’s. Her sister was Honor Browne. Their father remarried and moved to England in and around 1891.
Thanks in advance, Joan D’Arcy
-
I can see later references (more recent times) but nothing for that time with regard to records.
Do you have Mary Ann’s death? Is this your family?
I can see a death for Mary Brown, 7 yrs in 1883. The informant is her grandmother, Mary Kirby. I think the townland is Cogaula. This would imply, she was living with her grandmother.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06372/4828379.pdf
I see there is a birth for Honor Brown 1874, with parents John Brown and Catherine Kirby from the same townland.
-
I can’t see a death for the mother though - so maybe not the right family.
-
I can see a death for Mary Brown, 7 yrs in 1883. The informant is her grandmother, Mary Kirby. I think the townland is Cogaula. This would imply, she was living with her grandmother.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06372/4828379.pdf
It says she was a landholder's daughter and died of consumption.
It was a hard time in Mayo in 1879 and for some years after; the "forgotten famine".
-
I see there is a birth for Honor Brown 1874, with parents John Brown and Catherine Kirby from the same townland.
Same parents & townland for a Mary born 1876.
I couldn't see a death registration for Catherine.
-
I see there is a birth for Honor Brown 1874, with parents John Brown and Catherine Kirby from the same townland.
Same parents & townland for a Mary born 1876.
I couldn't see a death registration for Catherine.
Neither could I :-\
Cogaula townland, Islandeady civil parish
https://www.townlands.ie/mayo/burrishoole/islandeady/clogher/cogaula/
-
It may not be the right family though. We will have to wait and see.
Joan wants to find records for the I S, I think.
As the only death for a child Mary seems to be living with a grandparent, perhaps I posted the wrong family.
-
Think the OP needs to contact the local history department of Mayo County Library. They can probably advise further about available records for the St.Columba’s industrial school, Westport and where to find them.
Scroll down on this page for the Local History contact-
https://www.mayo.ie/library/contact
-
The St.Columba’s Industrial School appears to be situated in Altamont Street, Westport beside the Convent of Mercy.
https://arcg.is/1PzyuS
https://www.townlands.ie/mayo/murrisk/oughaval/westport-urban/cahernamart/
https://tinyurl.com/59scphnp
-
Thank you all for your replies and I apologise for the delay in replying. I will try and explain why I wanted to get the records of St. Columba. I have been doing my husband's family tree for a number of years and have decided that I can get no further but just thought I would check on a couple of things that had puzzled me. His gt.gt. Uncle was a John Browne who married a Catherine Kirby in Islandeady on 8th March 1868 and they had four children : Thomas 1870, William 1872, Honor 1874 and Mary Anne 1876, wife Catherine died in 1877 and John remarried in 1878 to another Catherine, this time Catherine O'Malley this couple had at least three children born in Ireland but they then moved to Lancs. circa 1881/2. I was always puzzled by the fact that in the 1891census, their first census in England there was no mention of the first four children and I assumed that they must have died as I had found mention of the death of Mary Anne in 1883, why else would you leave young children behind? So whilst doing a last, as I thought, check on these children I discovered a reference to Petty Session Court Registers in this register there is a mention of two girls, one Honor Browne aged 5 of Cogaula and a Mary Anne Browne aged 3 also of Coguala under the name of witnesses was Mary Kirby for the complainant (grandmother?) the two girls were accused of begging in Westport they were described as orphans having lost one parent and living with their father and had no visible means of subsistence. On the 25th of SEptember 1879 they were sent to St. Columba Industrial School and Honor was said to be detained until 25th Sept. 1890 and Mary Anne until the 25th Sept. 1892. It a way it does not make sense John had remarried by 1879 so did wife no.2 not want the children from his first wife?
Obviously with the death of Mary Anne in 1883 I assumed, probably wrongly that she died at ST. Columba so I thought that if I could find some records of entries or releases or deaths relating to these girls I could confirm whether or not they were part of my husband's tree. I could find no positive mention anywhere of Thomas or William.
So there you have it the reason why I was looking for any records. I must admit I thought it a bit harsh that such young childen were treated in this way.
thanks for reading this, Joan
-
wife Catherine died in 1877 and John remarried in 1878 to another Catherine, this time Catherine O'Malley this couple had at least three children born in Ireland but they then moved to Lancs. circa 1881/2.
why else would you leave young children behind? So whilst doing a last, as I thought, check on these children I discovered a reference to Petty Session Court Registers in this register there is a mention of two girls, one Honor Browne aged 5 of Cogaula and a Mary Anne Browne aged 3 also of Coguala under the name of witnesses was Mary Kirby for the complainant (grandmother?) the two girls were accused of begging in Westport they were described as orphans having lost one parent and living with their father and had no visible means of subsistence. On the 25th of SEptember 1879 they were sent to St. Columba Industrial School and Honor was said to be detained until 25th Sept. 1890 and Mary Anne until the 25th Sept. 1892. It a way it does not make sense John had remarried by 1879 so did wife no.2 not want the children from his first wife?
I must admit I thought it a bit harsh that such young childen were treated in this way.
2nd wife Catherine gave birth to daughter, Bridget, August 1879. Informant, later in August, was called Murray and his qualification was "present at birth". Do you know who he was? Why did John, father of the baby, not register the birth? A likely answer is that he wasn't around. He might have gone to Britain to work. Is there any evidence that John was at home when his daughters were found begging?
How much land did John have? Was it enough to feed a wife & several children when the potato crop failed as it did in 1879? Obviously not, as the children were considered to be without means of subsistence. Were the family facing eviction?
My great-grandmother in Mayo was convinced the whole family were going to starve to death that summer. She'd survived "An Gorta Mor" 3 decades earlier and feared 1879 was going to be a repeat of it.
Catherine may have been concentrating on keeping herself & baby alive. They may both have been ill, hungry and weak. The girls may have wandered off or she may have sent them out to beg.
Industrial schools were set up to care for orphaned, neglected or abandoned children. The purpose was to provide them with an education and training for an occupation. The girls may have been trained for work as domestic servants if they'd stayed.
-
That’s a sad story, Joan.
I recall a ‘Who do You Think You Are’ programme, or similar, where there was a story of a child being taken off the street (Dublin) and sent to an Industrial School. This was later than yours. The child was supposedly just playing close to home but the authorities had great power.
Maiden Stone has given a likely scenario there.
Do you have Honor in later years. I have just come across some published trees which show her marrying Robert McNamara in Chicago.
Here is 1900 census - Robert and Nora with children and brother in law Thomas Brown b 1872. You mention you have no positive mention of the two sons. This looks possible and you may have noted it already.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSQH-842
-
Thomas Brown death 1935
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NQF4-CMP
-
Honora McNamara death (transcribed as Sdnora)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N73G-6ZB
-
Going back to the girls and the Industrial School, you could try the library in Castlebar as Kiltaglassan suggests. I have had help from there before, in person and by email.
The only online references I can see to the establishment are about more recent events.
-
"John remarried in 1878 to another Catherine, this time Catherine O'Malley "
Who are the witnesses on this marriage certificate?.......who might be relatives and have an interest in the children who have lost their mother, 1877?
-
"John remarried in 1878 to another Catherine, this time Catherine O'Malley "
Who are the witnesses on this marriage certificate?.......who might be relatives and have an interest in the children who have lost their mother, 1877?
Here's the link-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1878/11112/8067610.pdf
John Browne to Catherine MALLY.
Witnesses: Mary Mally? Patrick Mally?
-
If you Google Convent of Mercy Westport, you will find listed a Facebook page, you can click on the administrator and read the comments from people that were brought up at St Columbias, even though this was from 1930's -1960's you can get a sense of the hardships they went through. The conditions when the Browne girls attended could only have been guessed.
Just for note the last part of the building in Westport is about to be demolished. I have found during my research that families are often broken up after the death of parent usually the mother, the children normally are taken in by the mothers side, looks like Mary Kirby did have child Mary living with her at the time of death, i see there is a Headstone for Mary Kirby and her husband online which is quite large, i imagine from this they were not poor.
-
I looked at Cogaula townland on 1901 census. Several households had members with surnames Kirby, Malley/OMalley and Murry.
-
i see there is a Headstone for Mary Kirby and her husband online which is quite large, i imagine from this they were not poor.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149162922/mary-kirby
Mary Kirby died 1892 + her husband + daughter Catherine Browne. Catherine's age transcribed as 24.
I can decipher only the first 2 names + at the foot, the names of the people who caused it to be erected.
"In loving memory of BRIDGET MCCOWAN
Ballinacarrica
died 20th Dec. 1921 aged 81 years
and her husband JOHN MCCOWAN
died 6th March 1929 aged 96 years"
" Erected by sons Edward & John USA "
Mary Kirby's death registered Westport SR district 1892. Farmer's widow, age 63, cause of death consumption. Informant Margaret Kirby, daughter-in-law.
Marriage registration of John Brown and Catherine Kirby is indexed incorrectly in Waterford SR district. I sent an email pointing out mistake. Her age looks like 16.
-
"In loving memory of BRIDGET MCCOWAN
Ballinacarrica
died 20th Dec. 1921 aged 81 years
and her husband JOHN MCCOWAN
died 6th March 1929 aged 96 years"
Think it says Bridget McGowan.
Here's her death record aged 82 in 1921.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1922/05076/4392649.pdf
Added:
Here's Ballynacarriga townland west of Islandeady.
https://www.townlands.ie/mayo/burrishoole/kilmaclasser/clogher/ballynacarriga/
-
Think it says Bridget McGowan.
Here's her death record aged 82 in 1921.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1922/05076/4392649.pdf
Added:
Here's Ballynacarriga townland west of Islandeady.
https://www.townlands.ie/mayo/burrishoole/kilmaclasser/clogher/ballynacarriga/
Thanks. I mistook letters g for c.
Informant of Bridget's death was Thomas, her son.
1911 census John & Bridget + children, Thomas (38) & Ellen (28). John & Bridget had been married 41 years and had 7 children.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Clogher/Ballynacarriga/745541/
Birth registrations of some children (McGowan/McGown), Westport SR district. Mother's surname Murry.
1872 Ellen & Thomas, twins. This conflicts with 1911 census which has 10 years difference between them.
1877 Ann
1880 Edward (Presumably one of the sons who emigrated to U.S.A. and paid for parents' tombstone.)
1883 Bridget
Couldn't see a marriage for John McGowan & Bridget Murry.
-
Youngest child of Thomas & Mary Kirby.
1864 Stephen Joseph; residence Cugalla; mother's maiden surname McNally; informant Mary Kirby, sister, Cugalla.
1865 Thomas Kirby, Mary's husband died.
1886 A Stephen Kirby, landholder, Cogaula, married Margaret Joyce.
1901 census: Stephen & Margaret + 9 children
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Mayo/Clogher/Cogaula/1603848/
1903 Margaret Kirby, Stephen's wife died.
1911 census: Stephen's 2nd wife was called Mary; they had been married 4 years. 8 children in household + Bridget Browne, boarder, single, aged 71. 11 people in 3 rooms.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Mayo/Clogher/Cogaula/745444/
-
Maiden Stone,
I might have missed this. How are the McGowans connected to the Browne/Kirby families?
Heywood
-
Maiden Stone,
I might have missed this. How are the McGowans connected to the Browne/Kirby families?
Heywood
I don't know. That's what I was trying to work out. Bridget McGowan & husband were seemingly buried in same grave as Mary Kirby, her husband & their daughter Catherine Browne. Memorial apparently paid for by McGowan sons in U.S., presumably after 1921 when Bridget McGowan died. Rest of tombstone, middle part where I assume Kirby names were, is now illegible.
I was hoping that Bridget McGowan or her husband were close relatives of Mary Kirby or her husband but apparently not.
Owenwee suggested that the large memorial on the Kirby grave indicated that Mary Kirby wasn't poor. However it wasn't her family who paid for it and it was put up maybe 30 years after she died.
Mary Kirby was widowed when she was in her 30's, her youngest child was 1.
-
The Kirby memorial is a different one to the McGowan one though.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149162919/thomas-kirby
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/149162930/catherine-browne
Mary Kirby is linked to the McGowan one but I think that could be wrong.
-
Reply #25 heywood. I only looked at Mary Kirby on Find a Grave and got the memorial for Bridget & John McGowan, the one with a Celtic cross on top. I didn't look at Thomas and Catherine.
I've looked at Mary Kirby again and Thomas and Catherine now. You're right, Mary Kirby is linked to the wrong grave photograph. I was barking up the wrong tree with the McGowan family.
That's the 2nd mistake with this family; Catherine's marriage registration was under Waterford instead of Westport on Irish Genealogy index.
It says at the foot of the Kirby gravestone "erected by their son". I think that's what it says; letters at the end are shaded by dandelions.
-
Yes that’s right - presumably erected by Catherine’s brother. So it might have been later.
-
Hello again, so sorry for the delay in replying but just to put you in the picture my husband got knocked down whilst on a pedestrian crossing in SEptember and I am kept pretty busy as he is unable at the moment to do certain things by himself, fortunately the car clipped him but he has three fractures of the spine and has to wear a very tight brace which restricts him from doing lots of things, this happened four days before his 86th birthday! Anyway enough of our troubles, I had hoped that checking the family tree again would help keep him interested in things and so far it is working.
I have done a bit more research but find that you clever people have done the same I found the tombstone for Thomas and Mary Kirby and daughter Catherine and was going to tell you about it, silly me I should have known you would get there before me, also thank you for the death record of Thomas Browne son of Catherine and John I am so pleased that at least one of their children survived into adulthood.
the witesses to John and Catherine Kirby's marriage were a John Moran and Mary O'Donnell, my husband's mother was an O'Donnell and her family are from Westport and sadly my husband's cousin Paddy O'Donnell passed away in 2019 my husband's last known relative in Mayo.
I am so grateful for the help and information you have given me and I intend to read through all the info again with my husband and see what we come up with before we will then have to turn our attention to the Galway D'Arcy family which is another minefield.
Hopeully I will be back once I have read everything again, THANK YOU AGAIN Joan
-
Thank you Joan.
All good wishes to your husband and you. I do hope he is recovering, albeit it might be slowly.
Take care
Heywood.
-
I'm sorry to hear about your husband's accident. Best wishes for his recovery.
There's a brother we haven't tracked yet.
Honor seems to have emigrated at a young age. I wonder if she travelled with a brother or if the brother went first. Did they go to relatives?
There were special assisted emigration schemes from Mayo for a few years post-1879.
Where did the girls' father settle in England?