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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Hgreenla on Sunday 31 October 21 10:32 GMT (UK)
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Looking for more records relating to Robert Roberts born ca 1782. If correct he married Gaenor Griffiths in 1804 and they had son Robert Roberts ca 1804 in St Asaph. This Robert married Ann Mandle and was a stone Mason.
Can anyone find the earlier Robert's birth / baptism record? Not seen him on a census.
Thanks for looking
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Robert who married Gaenor Griffiths was a widower at the time of his marriage
ADDED Gaynor Roberts was buried at St Asaph 16 Feb 1836 age 68 (born c1768)
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If correct he married Gaenor Griffiths in 1804 and they had son Robert Roberts ca 1804 in St Asaph. This Robert married Ann Mandle and was a stone Mason.
There are 2 baptisms for a Robert Roberts with parents Robert & Gaynor at St Asaph 17 Mar 1805 & 02 Aug 1807. Also a daughter Catherine 21 Jan 1809
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Am I missing something ~
The marriage entry has no information about his occupation or age so I'm not sure how you know that he was a stone mason and his parents were Robert and Gaynor.
Do you have Robert and Ann on any censuses, or any other evidence that you could share with us?
Gadget
Add - I see that there is a tree on Ancestry which might be yours but no sources are given :-\
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Rosie
Do you think that this the family on the 1851 census - 2506/324/12
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I have John Martin and Sarah Ann Roberts wedding certificate. Sarah's father Robert is a stonemason. I have the census where Sarah Ann is living with Robert Roberts and he's listed as a bricklayer. Will look for the entry now.
It's the 1871 census with Ann, Robert Roberts and Sarah Anne Martin are living together in St asaph
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I have John Martin and Sarah Ann Roberts wedding certificate. Sarah's father Robert is a stonemason. I have the census where Sarah Ann is living with Robert Roberts and he's listed as a bricklayer. Will look for the entry now.
I've given the ref to it in the post just above.
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The reason I'm a bit doubtful of Robert's parentage is that Robert Roberts is a pretty common name in Wales, particularly North Wales. I have a 2 x great grandfather named Robert Roberts, luckily he married after 1837 so I had a father's name. However, this was John! I eventually located them with a lot of hard work and contacting people in the area that I was interested in.
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Ok so you're thinking gaynor and Robert are probably not the right parents. Yes it's far too common a name isn't it
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I've been looking on various sites but, so far, I've not found anything that jumps out. Have you got anything for Gaynor. The burial that Rosie found puts her as being born circa 1768.
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I had found the marriage mentioned earlier where Roberts was a widow and this document : here the birthdate is 1807 so conflicts with another census I have unfortunately
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Did Robert and Ann have any other children apart from Sarah and Susanah?
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John 1850
Evan 1847
Robert 1845
William 1838
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John 1850
Evan 1847
Robert 1845
William 1838
Did they all die in childhood :-\
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I'm going to investigate this further, the gro is making me rethink this
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That was their date of birth
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That was their date of birth
Whose date of birth, the sons John, Evan, Robert & William. :-\. I was wondering why they were not with Robert, Ann, Sarah A & Susanna in 1851. I see Susanna died age 19.
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I can't find an Ann Mandle baptism at the moment - b.c. 1798, Llannefydd (from census). The marriage entry doesn't give marital status. I've tried broad variations of surname and place and also an Ann marrying a Mandle (variations)
Ive check C of E and non-c baptisms.
Have you had any luck, Rosie?
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I have not looked for Ann yet. I have been trying to locate the family in 1841 but am wondering about these other children. :-\
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Forget the other children I have probably made a mistake there and used the wrong census. Why can't I find Susannah on the gro?
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I can't get any of the children's ,born post 1837's , registrations on the GRO - not all were registered then. One of my lines just baptised.
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Have you confirmed yourself that Mandle is the maiden name?
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I think the family are in Mount Road, St Asaph in 1841 as that is where they are in 1851
Robert Roberts 30 occ Plasterer bn in county
Anne Roberts 40 not born in county
Sarah 5 born in county
Anne Jones 40 born in county
HO107
Piece 1412
Book 7
Folio 7
Page 9
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That's what I'm doing!
You said it was Mandle in your first post~
If correct he married Gaenor Griffiths in 1804 and they had son Robert Roberts ca 1804 in St Asaph. This Robert married Ann Mandle and was a stone Mason.
The marriage entry looks like Mandle, but it could be a second marriage. That's why I've been looking for marriages between an Ann (e) marrying a Mandle (variations before she married Robert).
Sorry, Rosie. I was replying to Have you confirmed yourself that Mandle is the maiden name?
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Sarah later lives on Mount Rd with her husband John Martin
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Sarah Ann was baptised 13th March 1836 at St Asaph - Roberts occ Bricklayer. Now I am wondering if that is the right family in 1841 :-\
ADDED Sorry had date wrong, now corrected. Distracted by doorbell then I remembered what day it was ;D
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I appreciate all your efforts. I'm new to this and obviously made a few incorrect assumptions
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Sarah Ann was baptised 13th March 1826 at St Asaph - Roberts occ Bricklayer. Now I am wondering if that is the right family in 1841 :-\
What was Sarah's age at marriage and post-marriage censuses/age at death?
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Year of birth at marriage 1841.
On 1871 she's 30. On 1881 census says she is 45..on 1911 census dob 1836? Argh
Age at death unconfirmed
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Chasing "Roberts" in North Wales is daunting at the best of times. In addition the name "Mandle" is as rare as hens' teeth.
FindMyPast Baptisms -
1. Image/Transcript
13 Mar 1834, Sarah Ann dau of Robert and Ann Roberts, abode Gwern Glefryd, occpn. bricklayer
2. Transcript only
Sarah Ann Roberts, 13 Mar 1836**, place St Asaph, parents Robert and Ann Roberts
3. Image/Transcript
19 July 1844, Susannah daughter of Robert & Ann Roberts, abode Penyllan Brynpolyn, occpn bricklayer, place of baptism St. Asaph
As mentioned no Susannah with mother's maiden name Mandle (or similar) to be found on GRO. There are Susannah's that "fit" but not a "Mandle"
I've been chasing the 1834 baptism re. Sarah Ann in 1841.
** - as transcribed
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I wonder if these Sarah Anns were the same person and maybe for whatever reason she changed her dob to suit
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Ancestry has a transcript only for the 1836 baptism - no image. Identifies the source as "Salt Lake City - Family search".
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Ancestry has a transcript only for the 1836 baptism - no image. Identifies the source as "Salt Lake City - Family search".
Nothing in the parish records, for that one HT. Given all the details are the same, except for the year (1834 cf 1836}, I'd say it might be the old 'patrons submisssion' or similar.
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Had a look at Family Search. Wanted to check if it was an indexed or contributed record but with the recent changes yet to find out how to do this.
It does mention "Attached in family tree to Sarah Ann Roberts ..." - hence verey dubious about provenance!
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Ancestry has a transcript only for the 1836 baptism - no image. Identifies the source as "Salt Lake City - Family search".
Nothing in the parish records, for that one HT. Given all the details are the same, except for the year (1834 cf 1836}, I'd say it might be the old 'patrons submisssion' or similar.
Agree - had plumped for that
regards
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Helen, where did you get the list of children that you gave earlier:
John 1850
Evan 1847
Robert 1845
William 1838
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Ancestry has a transcript only for the 1836 baptism - no image. Identifies the source as "Salt Lake City - Family search".
Nothing in the parish records, for that one HT. Given all the details are the same, except for the year (1834 cf 1836}, I'd say it might be the old 'patrons submisssion' or similar.
What does this mean exactly?
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Gadget,
You or me to respond! At least some of us remember the distinction - and it was so much easier to distinguish in the old days.
HT
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It means that the 1836 one is wrong - HT to give full details, please.
Here's a snip of Ann's surname from the 1832 marriage entry. Also note that a Mary Roberts was a witness.
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Helen, where did you get the list of children that you gave earlier:
John 1850
Evan 1847
Robert 1845
William 1838
An 1851 census with Robert Roberts on it. In Rhyl. Robert is a fireman in a steamer, he is 42
, Ann is 43
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG88-GGN
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Ah - was it the same one from 1841 - not a bricklayer. I discounted as ages a bit out.
1941 HO107/1403/2/12/17 has ~
Church Street, Abergele, St Asaph RD.
Robert Roberts 25, Driver
Mary, 30
John, 9 b 1832
Sarah, 5 b 1836
William, 1 b 1839
Robert 3 months b 1841
Add - a quick search on GRO for Robert and William has probable mother's mn as Jones
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Wow this line really isn't straightforward at all
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This is definitely the correct couple if your Sarah Ann(e) had a daughter Gwendoline
1871 - RG10/5669/67/8
Robert 64, bricklayer,
Ann, 64,
Sarah Anne Martin, 30
Gwendoline Martin, 1
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As I mentioned, chasing Roberts in N Wales is daunting - and that's an understatement, believe me.
Will PM you about "Contributed International Genealogical Index" or submitted records. Need a break at the moment!!
regards
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My line kept dropping - I've been re-looking at the baptism record of Sarah Ann - the transcripts show both 1834 and 1836. However, they both link to the same entry in the register - the page is labelled 1836 on both
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My line kept dropping - I've been re-looking at the baptism record of Sarah Ann - the transcripts show both 1834 and 1836. However, they both link to the same entry in the register - the page is labelled 1836 on both
Would you mind sending me a copy?
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As I mentioned, chasing Roberts in N Wales is daunting - and that's an understatement, believe me.
Will PM you about "Contributed International Genealogical Index" or submitted records. Need a break at the moment!!
regards
Thank you
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My line kept dropping - I've been re-looking at the baptism record of Sarah Ann - the transcripts show both 1834 and 1836. However, they both link to the same entry in the register - the page is labelled 1836 on both
Would you mind sending me a copy?
Done.
Add - Sarah Martin died Q4, 1914, St Asaph, aged 76.
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I checked the FindMyPast image and copied 1834 into my notes - and this only a fortnight after having my eyes tested.
Apologies
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I'm not sure if this was mentioned :
Ann Roberts (Mandle) was buried on 27 Oct 1875, St Asaph. She was 78 - b.c. 1797. So possibly 35 when she married in 1832. This could be a second marriage - worth investigating.
Same address as on the 1871 census - Mount Road, Gwernglefryd
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Tracking back census. Ages are not consistent ::)
1881.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WS-8Z51
Robert Roberts age 77 widower occ Bricklayer
Sarah A Martin age 45 widow
Sarahs daughters Gwendoline 11 & Harrietta 8
1871.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5PY-GGM
Robert Roberts 64 Bricklayer bn St Asaph
Anne Roberts 64 bn Llanefydd, Denbighshire
Sarah Ann Martin 30 bn St Asaph
Gwendoline Martin 1 bn St Asaph
1861.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7V8-7JF. Transcript has St Asaph as Kent ::)
Robert Roberts 66 Bricklayer bn St Asaph
Anne Roberts 60 bn Llanefydd, Denbighshire
Sarah Ann Roberts 24 bn St Asaph
Susannah Roberts 16 bn St Asaph
1851. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG88-2W9
Robert Roberts 45 Bricklayer bn St Asaph
Anne Roberts 53 bn Llanifydd, Denbighshire
Sarah A Roberts 15 bn St Asaph
Susannah Roberts 6 bn St Asaph
Typed out before reading Gadgets last post ;D
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This is a long shot -
The nearest that I can get to a baptism for an Ann, circa 1797, Llannefydd is
Llannefydd, 22 July 1798, Ann Thomas to Edward and Mary
Add - I've not checked non-conformist registers.
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There is a baptism for an Ann Mandle in Bassenthwaite, Cumberland on 19 March 1797. Parents were Isaac Mandle and Jane Blain
???
A better possibility:
A marriage at Henllan, which is 4 mls from Llannefydd:
22 Jan 1789
Edward Mandle and Mary Haden. Both of the parish
Witnesses - Thomas Bagley and Elizabeth Knowles
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This is possibly Robert's burial
13 July, 1887, St Asaph, aged 80, of Mill Street, St Asaph