RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: mackaa on Monday 25 October 21 04:21 BST (UK)
-
Hi All
Wales is not my area of speciality so have a couple of general questions others may be able to answer. Am looking for John JONES !!!!
1. Child born 1906 in Tylorstown, Ystradyfodwg - if father was deceased would it say so on registration printout? Generally I mean obviously no one can say for sure.
2. Worked as Colliery Timberman - died circa 1906 to 1909 - is it likely there is a grave? I mean obviously there is but would he have had a headstone given occupation?
3. Would it have been reasonable to move from Tylorstown to Wattstown circa 1907?
4. Are school records available for the Methyr Tydfil area around this time?
5. Can anyone recommend a society to join for research in this area
Thank you for your time
Melanie
-
This might be helpful - https://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/
For the Merthyr area this site is interesting http://www.alangeorge.co.uk/
-
Thank you Graham. The first I have seen but will look at the second link now
Appreciate your help
-
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2350230/ferndale-cemetery
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2350229/penrhys-cemetery
www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2323568/trealaw-cemetery
Links above to Ferndale and Penrhys cemeteries which are near Tylorstown, and Trealaw cemetery which is probably the nearest to Wattstown.
Tylorstown and Wattstown are in the Rhondda fach. This is a narrow valley with several villages. I lived here for a few years and have some contacts still in the valley. Please feel free to post other requests.
David Neil
-
I also had family in the Trealaw area during those years ...my immediate ancestors moved to Clydach Vale but others remained in Trealaw and surroundings.
following with interest
-
Thanks so much for the replies. All very helpful. Sorry about the delay in replying but due to the time difference down here in New Zealand. Is anyone able to answer any of my questions?
Thanks
-
Hi Melanie,
Have a look at this group, Glamorgan Family History Society (Pontypridd and Rhondda Branch).
https://www.dewis.wales/ResourceDirectory/ViewResource.aspx?id=24594
Overseas Membership is £20. If you look at their "Benefits of Membership" page at https://www.glamfhs.org.uk/ you will see what records they hold.
Hope this is of help
Corryn
-
Hi
Without any addresses / ages etc to confirm, I wondered whether the John Jones in this newspaper article could be him.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3829933/3829939/52/john%20jones%20wattstown,%20timberman
-
The Probate record of the John Jones namd in the newspapers, who died in Standard Colliery Ynyshir, says that he died on 22nd Jun 1907 at the colliery. The probate entry confirms he was of 75 Hillside Tce Wattstown and that the administration was granted on 26 July to his widow Sarah Ann Jones, efects being £39.
-
The Sarah Ann Jones widow, may not have been his widow. There was an inquest into John Jones's death and the newspaper reports that he was a widower with no children - see https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3433517/3433527/249/marwolaeth%20john%20jones,%20wattstown
-
Corryn - thanks for the suggestion of Glamorgan FHS - I think this will definately help
Sam - very helpful thank you. I had ordered the certificate already for the death you refer to but had missed the probate reference. Silly me I could have saved some money. Wife is Lily Alice so not the correct death.
UK death certificates are so uninformative compared to our NZ ones. It is very hard to know what is worth ordering.
Any further suggestions very much appreciated. And thank you for those so far.
Thank you
Melanie
-
HI do join Glamorgan family HIstory Facebook i am admin on there lots of folk who are helpful
Best wishes
Heddwch
-
As ar as there being a grave, if he lived in Tylorstown /Maerdy or Ferndale, then he could be buried in Ferndale or Llanownno cemetery. I don't think Penrhys cemetery was opened unitl the 1920's. It is possible if he lived nearer Wattstown or Ynyshir, that he might be buried at Trealaw. If you have the birth certiicate of the last child, then the address may give a clue as to the most likely cemetery. There is for example John Jones buried at Ferndale IN 1907 Plot C58 (D). Internment 4714. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/146255405/john-jones
Unfortunately there are no other details recorded, so diicult to know if this John is even an adult.
However, if you contacted Treorchy or Pontypridd library, they could look up his internment record and email you a copy. This would give details of name, address, occupation and other relations possibly.
Given the short span of years in which the death is likely to have occurred, the librarian would I'm sure be able to search and find all relevant John Jones's during that time, at all relevant cemeteries in the Rhondda for which they hold records (including possibly relevant local chapels).
Do you have any details of John's marriage to Lily Alice ?
-
Thanks for the additional messages.
The death on 22 June 1907 at Standard Colliery is the right age and occupation. But no other clues on the printout to suggest he is my John. And given the probate I am guessing not. I did see that one article says married and the other not.
John JONES married Lily Alice WILLIAMS on 1 Feb 1902 at Merthyr Tydfil Registry Office. Occupation Assistant Colliery Timberman. Address Cwmaman, Aberdare. Lily address Mardy Pontypridd. Youngest child Aerianwen born 16 Nov 1906 - address 25 Brynbedw Terrace, Tylorstown. John occupation Colliery Repairer. There is nothing to say that John was deceased at this point.
Lily remarried Charles PHILLIPS on 6 Jul 1909 at Pontypridd registry office. Lily stated as Widow. Both give address as 46 Hendrefadog Street, Tylorstown. Their daughter's birth registered 1st Qtr 1910 registered in Pontypridd (I do not have this printout yet). Given possible conception dates it seems likely that Lily and Charles were together prior to marriage and jumping to conclusions that John most likely died prior to 1909.
I have a list of all the deaths in the right time frame and area so will try and match them up with the cemetery records then approach the libraries as suggested. Great idea thanks
-
What was John's father's name ?
-
Hi Sam
Thanks for helping so much. I have emailed Library as you suggested. Given the time difference they do not open for another few hours but fingers crossed they might reply to me later - my time.
John's father was Thomas JONES, Colliery Timberman, deceased as at 1 Feb 1902 (marriage John JONES to Lily Alice WILLIAMS)
I have trolled the census records 1881 to try and find a likely connection (John was aged 25 at marriage in 1902). But there are too many John and Thomas matches to be sure.
My friend who I am doing this research for is in his 90's and has health issues. He has asked me to find out about his grandfather before he passes. I would really like to solve this for him. So really appreciate yours and others help
Melanie
-
It's possible that names of witnesses to John's marriage to Alice may be helpful if you have those.
-
I have tried so many times to upload a copy of the marriage entry but keeps saying file size is too big no matter what I do to it.
Witnesses to marriage of John JONES and Lily Alice WILLIAMS 1902 are
John PROBERT
Augusta WILLIAMS
Thanks again everyone
Melanie
-
As far as the witnesses go, Augusta is Lily's sister. the other witness John Probert was living at 14 Brynhyfryd Aberaman in Cwmaman in 1901, with his wife Hannah, daughter Mary Ann and 2 boarders Evan and Daniel Jones. Looking at the GRO Index Mary Ann Probert's mother's maiden name was Jones and there's a marriage or Hannah Jones and John Probert in the Merthyr District in Jun 1892. Hannah dies in January 1910 https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3579311/3579314/38/john%20probert%20cwmaman
In 1891 Hannah is living with some of her siblings at 67 Glanaman Rd. By now both their parents must be deceased, with brother David listed as the head. See RG12; Piece: 4448; Folio: 15; Page: 27
In 1881 we have a posisble family for Hannah & John with parents and several siblings at 67 Glanaman Rd, Aberdare. There are 11 children with parents - see RG11 Piece 5324 Folio 142 Page 14 Schedule 1115.
Thomas Jones the father is a colliery Timberman and was born 1837 at Cwmavon and Ann Jones (nee Davies) born 1841 also Cwmavon with 11 children (minus 2 named on the 1871 census) : Thomas b. Taibach 1860, Sarah b. 1863 Cwmavon, David b. 1866 Cwmavon, Mary b.1868 Aberdare, William b. 1870 Aberdare, Hannah b. 1872 Aberdare, Phillip b. 1874 Aberdare, Rhichard b. 1875 Aberdare, John b. 1876 Aberdare, Evan b. 1878 Aberdare and Noah born 1880 Aberdare.
In 1871 we have Thomas and Ann Jones with children Dinah, Thomas, Mary David and William at Forchaman Rd. Dinah and Thomas I think are children of Thomas's first marriage to a Sarah born in Llanelly Carmarthenshire. They must have married about 1856 and Sarah must have died after the 1861 census after the birth of Thomas in 1860. John must have remarried by about 1865.
1871 census is at RG10 Piece 5410 Folio 148 Page 35 Schedule 133
The 1861 census has them at Club Row, Hafod y Porth, Margam in Michaelstone parish (became Cwmavon) where Thomas and wife Sarah and children Dinah and Thomas jnr is at RG9 Piece 4080 Folio 77 Page 4
-
Wow I was just trying to catch up and you added heaps more to your message. Thank you
The 1881 Census is one I had earmarked as most likely. I just hadn't found the link through to John. Which obviously you have with the marriage of sister to witness at wedding. Thomas (father) was deceased when John married. Also John named his first born Noah which was another reason I earmarked this one.
Just working my way through all the kids and marriages. Doesn't solve my death of John but I have requested a couple of look ups through the Library and GFHS. Hopefully will get some results from this.
Thanks so much for your help
-
John Jones is lised on the 1907 Electors Register under 25 Brynbedw Terrace with successive qualifying properties listed as 27 Church Terrace, 45 Glanaman Rd Cwmaman and 25 Brynbedw Tce
Church Terrace is a street in front of Brynbedw Tce and the 1891 cenusus had John and his siblings at 67 Glanaman Rd in 1891.
1906 records John Jones 45 Glanaman Rd Cwmaman
1907 as above
1908 at 25 Brynbedw Tce
1909 number 25 Brynbedw Tce is not listed only numbers 24 & 26.
If you haven't heard anything from the library, the above suggests he died between 1908 & 9 for could be after he registered and before lists were compiled i.e 1907 -1908.
-
Please forgive my ignorance but given the prevalence of the name John JONES at the time wouldn't the only relevant entry be the one at 25 Brynbedw? As this is an address there is already a record for him. As I have said I am new to Welsh Research so an explanation of how the Electoral Registers work would probably be helpful. Thankyou
-
I am guessing that the electoral registers relate to ownership or tenancy of the property
For example a search of All Glamorganshire, Wales, Electoral Registers, 1832-1978 results for 67 Glanaman Road comes up with these results
1889 - David JONES
1890 – David JONES
1891 – David JONES
1892 – David JONES
1893 – David JONES
1897 – John PROBERT
1898 – John PROBERT
1899 – John PROBERT
1900 – John PROBERT
1902 – John OWEN
1903 – John OWEN
1904 – John FRANCIS
1905 – Joseph FRANCIS
1906 – David John MORGAN
1907 – David John MORGAN
1908 – David John MORGAN
1909 – Henry BUTLER
1910 – Henry BUTLER
NB I did not look past 1910
NB there are no records prior to 1889 for 67 Glanaman (not on Ancestry anyway)
These appear to corelate to Census entries for same period
But do not show John JONES or his father Thomas JONES at all but his brother David is there in 1889 to 1893.
Am I jumping to conclusions that the father Thomas JONES died in 1889 or earlier?
-
This corresponds with the Tomas Jones family living at 67 Glanaman Rd 1881, with last son Daniel born 1882. Thomas and Ann the parents are not shown on the 1891 census which has various children of theirs all living together. The electoral Registers you show and the 1881 & 1891 censuses do then suggest Thomas and Ann the parents both died 1881-1891. They may well be buried in Aberdare cemetery.
I've found a service record for the son Evan born 1878 who joining the Glamorgan Artillery 2 feb 1898 service number 1561 and who was discharged due to expired terms in 1904. Gave hiss address as 67 Glanaman Rd and he was single.