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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => US Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Hgreenla on Thursday 21 October 21 18:58 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for Esther Greenland on the 1915 new York census. She was born in London in 1897. When she married in NY in 1916 her address was 47 First Street.
Is it possible with the census to search for people living at that address?
She married Susman Hershorn
Thank you
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Should she be in the 1915 NY census? Is this her in the 1916 Passenger list below? Family Search has the record and image.
New York Passenger Arrival Lists (Ellis Island), 1892-1924
Name Esther Greenland
Age 19
Immigration Date 04 Jul 1916
Immigration Place Ellis Island, New York City, New York, United States
Residence Place Paris, France
Marital Status Single
Nationality England, French
Additional Person's Name Greenland
Second Additional Person's Name Hershours
Page Number 96
Affiliate Line Number 0003
Departure Port Bordeaux
Ship Name Rochambeau
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Ancestry has this record with image:
New York, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists (including Castle Garden and Ellis Island), 1820-1957
Name: Esther Greenland
Ethnicity/ Nationality: English
Marital status: Single
Age: 19
Birth Date: abt 1897
Birth Place: England
Other Birth Place: London
Last Known Residence: Paris, France
Departure Port: Bordeaux, France
Arrival Date: 5 Jul 1916
Arrival Port: New York, New York, USA
Height: 5 Feet, 4 Inches
Hair Colour: Brown
Eye Colour: Blue
Complexion: Fair
Money in Possession: 50
Person in Old Country: Greenland
Person in Old Country Relationship: Mother
Person in Old Country Residence: Paris
Person in US: Hershours
Person in US Relationship: Friend
Ship Name: Rochambeau
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Sorry Hillhurst you beat me to it -- the immigration record I have seen gives her brother's name and her mother's.
Do you know the date of her marriage please?
There is an immigration record for an Esther Greenland b 1897, England - a dressmaker who had been living in Paris. Arrived New York 5 July 1916.
If it's the same Esther, the immigration record gives some family details and her address in Paris.
May not be the right person though. (Was there a 1915 census anyway? I thought they were 1910, 1920 etc etc)
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Do you know the date of her marriage please?
Yes, there was a 1915 census in NY. And one in 1921 (Canada). The couple are in the 1921 census, as well.
New York, New York, U.S., Extracted Marriage Index, 1866-1937
Name: Esther Greenland
Marriage Date: 15 Jul 1916
Marriage Place: Manhattan, New York, USA
Spouse: Susman Hershorn
Certificate Number: 17050
Name Susman Hershorn
Age 27
Birth Year (Estimated) 1889
Birthplace Radno, Russia
Marital Status Single
Father's Name Wolf
Mother's Name Mary Woodruff
Spouse's Name Esther Greenland
Spouse's Age 19
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1897
Spouse's Birthplace London, England
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Father's Name Jude
Spouse's Mother's Name Anna Fligel
Marriage Date 15 Jul 1916
Marriage Place Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
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For what it's worth... His occupation is carpenter.
New York, U.S., State and Federal Naturalization Records, 1794-1943
Name: Susman Hershorn
Declaration Age: 26
Record Type: Declaration
Birth Date: 20 Sep 1889
Birth Place: Radorn, Russia
Arrival Date: 13 Jul 1915
Arrival Place: New York, New York, USA
Declaration Date: 5 Jul 1916
Court: U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York
Declaration Number: 50173
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Hillhurst is that his arrival from Russia?
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Thank you. You are all correct I have the manifest of her coming from Paris. I wanted to check they were the same Esther but they obviously are. I thought her mother's maiden name is Feinstein, it's all rather confusing.
I have the marriage record from family search.
I didn't see a brothers name though Pennines? What is it?
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Hillhurst is that his arrival from Russia?
According to the document, he arrived in NY on 13 July 1915. Previous residence: Paris, France.
Question: Are you and Hgreenla doing this research together?
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I didn't see a brothers name though Pennines? What is it?
Who's brother is he? Bride or groom?
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I didn't see a brothers name though Pennines? What is it?
Pennine mentioned her brother.
Hgreenla is me
Who's brother is he? Bride or groom?
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Esther was going to join Aunts friend "Hershours"! 481 E 17 th Street c/o Vaintrail New York.
Mother Greenland 17 Rue Des Jardins, Saint Paul at Paris.
Note saying discharged to cousin Harry Fligel ?? (illegible) and wife
Brother referred to the passenger underneath.
Sandra
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I didn't see a brothers name though Pennines? What is it?
Pennine mentioned her brother.
Okay, I'm confused now. Who is Pennine? I don't follow you. And which brother are we talking about?
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I'm thinking Hershours is a misspelling of the husbands surname
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Yes that seems to be correct.
Sandra
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Still confused...who is Pennine? ???
Also, the groom had been living in Paris. So maybe they met there.
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Pennines was one of the contributors earlier in this thread - see reply 3 (name in the margin Pennines)
Sandra
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Please can i have a link to the document showing Susman travelled from Paris too?
Can anyone help me to decide if the Esther Greenland born to julius Greenland and Annie feinstein in 1897 in London is the same person as this Esther? What has thrown me is the mothers name on the marriage certificate
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Oh right. Thought the name sounded familiar. Are these two members doing this research together?
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Now I'm confused. Who is the 2nd person
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Looks to me like pennines was contributing. :-\
According to UK marriages - Julius Simon Greenland married Annie Feinstein/Annie Feinstrin
Mile End Old Town - quarter 2 1896.
The US marriage certificate could have been mis-transcribed to read Fligel.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24QF-Q6G
Sandra
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Please can i have a link to the document showing Susman travelled from Paris too?
His 1916 Naturalisation document indicates his Last Foreign Residence was Paris. No specific address given, just Paris. His NY address in 1916 was 481 E. 174th St.
You'll need an Ancestry world sub to view the record's image. It's probably too large for me to upload here. Not much else of interest on the 1-page document. Just his occupation: carpenter.
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Sandra I believe Esther had a sister who also married in NY and mother's name again was fligel
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Don't forget the couple lived in Canada c1920/1921, then in Chicago (1940).
1930 - they're living in the Bronx.
For Esther parents:
Father's Birthplace: Russia
Mother's Birthplace: Poland
Language Spoken: Yiddish
According to SSD index, Esther's DoB was 6 March 1897.
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Sandra I believe Esther had a sister who also married in NY and mother's name again was fligel
Have you got a name ?
I see Esther listed in London, England, School Admissions and Discharges - Settles Street School - born 6 March 1897 - admitted 24 August 1903 - father Julius Greenland.
Also Mary (born 25/4/1894) and Emmanuel (born 20/8/1892) admitted 23/8/1899 - St Marys School. Tower Hamlets.
Sandra
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Was her name Alice ?
Sandra
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Morris Aston - Marriage Date 26 Nov 1922 Bronx, New York.
Spouse Alice Greenland - Certificate Number 4538
Sandra
Added Also this version - Morris Eston
Marriage License Date 27 Jun 1922 Bronx, New York City, New York.
Spouse Alice Grinland
License Number 3363
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Military Service -
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7ZSR-9G6Z
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1J-63VQ-C?mode=g&cc=2968245&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3A7ZSR-9G6Z
1925 census Bronx New York
Morris Eston aged 27 years. born Russia.
Alice Eston aged 20 years. born France.
Dorothy Eston days old.
Annie Greenland aged 50 years. born Russia.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KS9Q-6QW
Sandra
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Alice Eston - 15 April 1905 - 6 October 1994 New York
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JPHP-96T
Sandra
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FIND A GRAVE
Alice Eston -
Cedar Park Cemetery Paramus, Bergen County, New Jersey.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/226127666/alice-eston
Morris Eston -
5 May 1898 - 4 February 1978
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/226127667/morris-eston
Sandra
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1930 census Longfellow. Avenue Bronx New York
Morris Eston 31 Head. Born Russia. Painter. NA.
Alice Eston 24 Wife
Dorothy Eston 5 Daughter
Anna Greenland 54 Mother-In-Law. Born Russia. Widowed. Imm 1918.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X76S-DB3
Sandra
Added Death of Anne Greenland - Anne Greenland - 1875 - 27 September 1950 (aged 75 years)
Death Place Bronx, New York, New York.
Certificate Number 9142
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1940 census Broadway New York
Morris Estan 41 Head. Painter Contractor. Employer.
Alice Estan 34 Wife
Dorothy Estan 15 Daughter
Yuanne (should be Yvonne) Estan 9 Daughter
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQSB-PCJ
Sandra
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U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index - Dorothy Eston
Dorothy Glenn - Dorothy Lebon - Dorothy Gelstein - Dorothy Glenn Lebon
Birth Date 30 Nov 1924 N Y, New York - Death Date 29 Jun 2006
Father Morris Eston - Mother Alice Greenland.
SSDI - Dorothy Glenn Lebon 30 November 1924 - died 29 June 2006 -
Last Residence 33434, Boca Raton, Palm Beach, Florida.
Sandra
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South Florida Sun Sentinel Fort Lauderdale, Florida
1 Jul 2006, Sat Page 38
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/87507041/dorothy-lebon-1-july-2006/
Sandra
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Marriage - Dorothy Glenn born 30 November 1924 New York
Maiden Name Eston - Age: 67
Marriage Date 19 Aug 1992 Delray Beach, Palm Beach, Florida.
Spouse Godfrft Rubin Lebon
marriage - Godfrey Rubin Lebon - dorothy Eston
Marriage Date 19 Aug 1992 Palm Beach, Florida
Certificate: 080700
Sandra
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Thanks for that info however what I'm trying to decide is if the Esthers are the same person, ie is esther hershorn my ancestor
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Are you able to find out what Dorothy's children are called?
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Thanks for that info however what I'm trying to decide is if the Esthers are the same person, ie is esther hershorn my ancestor
According to New York, Northern Arrival Manifests, 1920 - yes she is yours.
mother Annie Greenland.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q23H-LMJR
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6K1C-X?i=1496&cc=1876434&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQ23H-LMJR
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XLVK-44X
Sandra
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Named on the 19230 manifest - Sadie Hershorn 11 months born London Ontario.
U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index
Sadie Hershorn - Suzanne Hershorn
Birth Date 8 Jan 1920 London Ontar, Canada - Death Date Nov 1989
Father Sussman Hershorn
Mother Esther Greenland.
Sandra
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So Annie Feinstein and Anna fligel are definitely the same person ?
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Yes, seems so. Documents can vary with spelling/mis-interpretation - depending on the informant and the informants knowledge.
Sandra
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Alice was born in Paris. Im now trying to obtain her birth record . Are you any good at navigating the parisian archives.?:)
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what I'm trying to decide is if the Esthers are the same person, ie is esther hershorn my ancestor
Are you saying you're related to Esther directly, e.g. would she be your grandmother or great-grandmother? What ancestor link (in your tree) have you definitely confirmed so far?
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Its not a question of spelling tbo it's a completely different name
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She's not a direct ancestor, her father is my gggfather. But I'm just wondering if this particular esther belongs on my tree or if its just a lot of coincidences
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She's not a direct ancestor, her father is my ggfather.
Who is your great-great-grandfather? What do you know about him so far? Is this a case where he has children by another marriage, and you're descended from that line? Which, if correct, would make Esther a half-relative (of sorts) to you?
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Hillhurst yes you're correct. Julius had 2 children with his first wife , I'm a descendant of his first child.
I know very little about him, he escaped all Censuses and no death record. I think he went awol in France. I fear the worst
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Perhaps that fact should've been stated in your original post. Just to avoid all the confusion. Maybe your thread should actually be about Julius instead, as he's the "mystery".
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I was just trying to focus on proving whether the Esthers are all the same person but point taken
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Yes but julius has really been hurting my head these past few days, having a breather ha
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Do you have Julius mentioned on any BMD certificates? If so, what are they? And can you list his occupation(s) and any addresses he was living at (as per the certs).
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Here's one Julius record for you. Image is Ancestry. Loads of details about him in the record!
London, England, Selected Poor Law Removal and Settlement Records, 1698-1930
Name: Julius Simon Greenland
Event Type: Examinations
Residence Date: 10 Nov 1896
Residence Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green
Residence: Bethnal Green, London, England
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I think I have all the records available on ancestry.
Last known address on his marriage certificate was 104 old Montague street, London
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Sandra I believe Esther had a sister who also married in NY and mother's name again was fligel
Have you got a name ?
I see Esther listed in London, England, School Admissions and Discharges - Settles Street School - born 6 March 1897 - admitted 24 August 1903 - father Julius Greenland.
Also Mary (born 25/4/1894) and Emmanuel (born 20/8/1892) admitted 23/8/1899 - St Marys School. Tower Hamlets.
Sandra
This reply mentions not just Esther but a few children
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The Settlement record above says he'd been in England 13 years, and that he'd left his wife for 3 months, etc etc.
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Last known address on his marriage certificate was 104 old Montague street, London
Which marriage was this? The one to Anna, or the one to your ancestor?
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There's the address on the poor house record too. He appeared to marry her then dump her in the poorhouse 3 months later. Then it appears he goes to France and has Alice
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Last known address on his marriage certificate was 104 old Montague street, London
Which marriage was this? The one to Anna, or the one to your ancestor?
Anna
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So you don't have him in any census, eg. 1891, 1901, 1911? He just appears from nowhere, then disappears again?
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Related thread should have been mentioned before and linked
- https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854359.0
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The only reason why I discovered his name originally was from the school admission records, he's on no censuses.
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I think Alice and yes sorry other thread Maurice may be illegitimate children
Confusing.. sorry
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When and where did he marry your ancestor? Just so I can keep all this straight.
So do you think he's a bigamist, etc?
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No record of marriage to first wife, he married Annie in may 1896 east london.
Has Alice with Annie I think in Paris . Then another child Maurice appears with guittel?
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On his first sons marriage certificate they put his name as Jack. His first daughter puts his name as Jacob. In France Jules.....
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.
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Oh my goodness, this has moved on SO much since I poked my nose into it before closing down last night!
Just to answer the question originally put to me after that - a snippet from the arrival record for Esther Greenland in 1916 appears to a show a brother's name of Alexandre Geoffrey of 67 Rue (des Jardins Saint Paul) - but it's probably irrelevant now.
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Oh my goodness, this has moved on SO much since I poked my nose into it before closing down last night!
Just to answer the question originally put to me after that - a snippet from the arrival record for Esther Greenland in 1916 appears to a show a brother's name of Alexandre Geoffrey of 67 Rue (des Jardins Saint Paul) - but it's probably irrelevant now.
You mis-read the passenger list.
In reply 11, I pointed out that "brother" referred to the passenger travelling underneath Esther.
Sandra
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Thank you for your message Hgreenla. Sorry had to dash away, neighbour needed assistance :-\
Sorry Hillhurst, that I never got around to replying to your personal message.
That's the first time I have been blocked from replying to a personal message since I joined this site in 2007.
Didn't really have anything else to add but wonder if Julius Simon Greenland could have arrived in the UK after the 1890 census and left before the 1901 census ? Maybe that's why he does not appear on census, he had already moved on to France ?
In reply 24 it gave the dates of Mary and Emmanuel entry on London, England, School Admissions and Discharges as 23/8/1899 - although I see an entry for Emmanuel a year earlier 14 March 1898.
Sandra
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Can you give a summary of what you know about Jules and his children with each wife .
I believe Kate can be an anglicised version of Gittel
Anna Hannel fingel / feinstein could be one and same person or two different wives.
Order of children might help decide unless he was a bigamist
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I don't know why this didn't occur to me yesterday.... ::)
Hgreenla - do you have the 1896 marriage certificate for Julius Simon Greenland and Anna/Annie?
If so, please can you provide the following details:
1. What is Julius' father's full name and occupation?
2. What are the witness names?
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I don't know why this didn't occur to me yesterday.... ::)
Hgreenla - do you have the 1896 marriage certificate for Julius Simon Greenland and Anna/Annie?
If so, please can you provide the following details:
1. What is Julius' father's full name and occupation?
2. What are the witness names?
Related thread should have been mentioned before and linked
- https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854359.0
See the related thread referred to in reply 59 this thread
Marriage certificate applied for - reply 45 other thread.
Sandra
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Hello,
I am a direct descendant of Esther Greenland and Sussman Hershorn. I find this thread fascinating, and wonder who is asking all these questions. . . Maybe a distant cousin ?
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Interesting: this thread identifies the father of Esther Greenland as "Julius". However, in her New York marriage license her father's name is listed as "Jude". Is this common, using a nickname or a diminutive?
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simple answer yes
because you are dealing with people who are travelling thru different countriesand different languages
if they give their namesin yiddish and didnt speak much english it would depend on the translator which anglisization of the namer they chose to use
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Hi Todd, I've sent you a pm. Would be great to hear from you