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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Fife => Topic started by: Meggiejayne on Thursday 21 October 21 10:56 BST (UK)
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Hello
I'm trying to find information on Marion of Balwearie. We know that she was a Lady in Waiting to Mary Queen of Scots. She was married to my husband's ancestor George Henderson who was the Laird of Fordel Castle.
She was born in 1499 in Kirkcaldy to I believe Thomas Scott and Lady Elizabeth Logane.
This is about the only information that we have been able to find about her.
Does anyone have any further informatiion about her or her parents. Or even her time as one of the companions to Mary? We know that Mary stayed at Fordel Castle at the time of her wedding to George Henderson. It would be interesting to find out just how high up in the Queen's court she was.
Thank you in advance.
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Not sure about the marriage to Thomas as have also found a marriage to a Lord Alexander Scott Fingask in 1523 with 4 children all borne before the marriage itself.
The marriage to Thomas has 2 children but no mention of Marion.
So I wonder which is correct?
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Not sure about the marriage to Thomas as have also found a marriage to a Lord Alexander Scott Fingask in 1523 with 4 children all borne before the marriage itself.
The marriage to Thomas has 2 children but no mention of Marion.
So I wonder which is correct?
You need to look at the sources and assess how reliable they are. If, for example, one comes from an original document in the National Records of Scotland and the other comes from an unsourced tree submitted to Ancestry, there's no contest - the original document wins.
Though I am slightly confused.
In your first post you say that Marion was born in 1499 and married to George Henderson, and in your second you seem to say that she was married to Alexander Scott in 1523.
From your first post it was her mother who was married to Thomas Scott.
Mary Queen of Scots was born in 1542. She was sent to France in 1648 and returned to Scotland in 1561. So if Marion was was born in 1499, she was 43 when MQS was born and 62 when MQS returned to Scotland - a bit old to start a family, surely?
Why don't you make a timeline of all the things you know or think you know about Marion, and see what that looks like? For example, if the marriage to George Henderson took place between the births of the four illegitimate children, that would suggest that it isn't the same person at all.
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I think I am just going around in circles and not even sure I have the right Marion.
We know that she was the wife of George Burgess Henderson.
Firstly she marries an Alexander Scott, 2nd Laird of Fingask in 1525, although I also have a date of 1517 for that.
She then marries George Henderson at Fordel Castle on 20th August 1546. But then I have another date of 1539. According to sources Mary Queen of Scots was a guest at the Castle and it is with this information she is named as a Lady in Waiting to the Queen.
Thomas Scott is her father, I have now discovered. Her mother being Lady Elizabeth Logane. Thomas' father was Sir William Scott, 7th Laird of Balwaerie and his mother Lady Isabel Moncrieffe.
There seem to be a number of Scotts around. Lady Elizabeth Logane also seems to have had 2 marriages. Thomas being her second. This is the confusion. Her first marriage seems to be to Lord Alexander Scott Fingask but has Marion listed as a child of that marriage not the marriage to Thomas.
We have a death for her 20th April in Suffolk and a buriel at Fordel Castle.
Through looking at various sites it does have her father as Thomas Scott son of the 7th Lord of Balwearie, Sir William Scott.
Some sites also have her first husband also being a son of William Scott, meaning she married her uncle?
Some of this information seems to come from Burkes Peerage so I honestly dont know.
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She then marries George Henderson at Fordel Castle on 20th August 1546. But then I have another date of 1539. According to sources Mary Queen of Scots was a guest at the Castle and it is with this information she is named as a Lady in Waiting to the Queen.
MQS was just 4 years old in 1546, and was not even born in 1539.
We have a death for her 20th April
What year? in Suffolk and a buriel at Fordel Castle.
That doesn't sound at all plausible. It would be several days' journey from Suffolk to Fordel. Would they really have carted a decomposing corpse all that way for burial?
Also, if she was born in 1499 and married in 1546, she would have been 47 by then and it's extremely unlikely she could then have become your ancestress, as it was pretty rare for women over 45 to produce any children. Do you think she was a second wife of your ancestor George Henderson?
Also, if she was born in 1499 there would hardly have been time for her to have four illegitimate children before she married in 1517?
It all looks very confusing indeed. You really do need to set out a timeline to see what is and what is not feasible.
And Burke's Peerage has been known to contain inaccuracies.
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George Henderson of Fordell was the son of James Henderson, who was killed at Flodden in 1513, and his wife, Ellen or Helen Baty.
He married Katherine Adamson, daughter of William Adamson and Jonet Turing. A marriage contract dated 17th December 1517 survives, between William, Jonet and Katherine on the one part and George Henrison (Henderson) and his mother, Ellen Baty, with consent of her second husband, Alan Stewart, Captain of Dumbarton and Inchgarvie, on the other. They were married by the following February, when they are first mentioned as husband and wife in a sasine.
I am descended from Katherine's brother, Alexander, who was killed at Pinkie in 1547. George's heir, William, was also killed at Pinkie.
Although I have been able to trace the Adamsons back to the 1460s and the Turings directly back to the 14th century, I have not got round to checking the information available on George Henderson other than the many times the Adamsons and he witness sasines for one another.
The information on George will take some studying. There is a confirmation to him and Katherine in the Register of the Great Seal on 1-9-1542 which implies they were both alive then. There is an instrument of renunciation by William Scott of Balwearie to Marion Scott, relict of George Henderson, dated 22-6-1544 , in the National Records of Scotland (GD172?98). Yet there is a confirmation in the Register of the Great Seal on 20-8-1546 of a regrant of George's lands, on his resignation of them, jointly to himself and his wife Mariota (Marion Scott), which implies they are both alive. Some sources say George was killed at Pinkie in 1547. There are inconsistencies that need to be checked.
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Hello
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.
This woman really is confusing.
I've been looking on someone's family tree on Ancestry and they have 4 dates of weddings to George Henderson starting in 1517 and ending in 1546. They have her birth year as 1502 and her death as 1556 on 20th April.
The only information I can find to her pertaining to lady in waiting to MQS is on the Fordell Castle Wikipaedia page and other people's family trees so nothing concrete. But yes as you say MQS would only have been 4 at the time. Although she was made Queen at 4 so would she have had ladies in waiting at that age?
Her death dates vary also as some have 1556 on 23rd August, others say 20th April 1566 so who knows?
She seems just far too confusing with 2 different birth dates; 4 different marriage dates to George and 2 different death dates. Some trees even have the birth of her first child at 8 years of age. Now I know Margaret Beaufort was only 13 when she gave birth to Henry Tudor but 8 seems a bit too young.
All of this information seems very ambiguous and I'm now questioning whether she was actually a lady in waiting and it was just here say since none of it makes any sense.
Thank you
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I've been looking on someone's family tree on Ancestry and they have 4 dates of weddings to George Henderson starting in 1517 and ending in 1546. They have her birth year as 1502 and her death as 1556 on 20th April.
I suggest you disregard anything you find on Ancestry unless it cites a specific original source that you can check.
The only information I can find to her pertaining to lady in waiting to MQS is on the Fordell Castle Wikipaedia page and other people's family trees so nothing concrete. But yes as you say MQS would only have been 4 at the time. Although she was made Queen at 4 so would she have had ladies in waiting at that age?
MQS succeeded to the throne when she was only a few days old. She probably would have had ladies in waiting at the age of 4.
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This is painful part because it costs coin to acquire a copy of the original record.
https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/welcome.aspx
Select Search
Search for: Marion Scott click the "Phrase" button
There will be 43 results.
Then to the right of the Title above the first entry click on the date and it will sort the entries oldest to newest.
These are all the records where she is mentioned except the few under George Henderson. These are not the complete records only a summary.
But, what is missing is the marriage contract and there would have been one. Obtaining this would answer many questions governing her ancestry. It is possible it is there but you would need to contact the NRS or hire someone to do a search.
Don
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George Henderson of Fordell was the son of James Henderson, who was killed at Flodden in 1513, and his wife, Ellen or Helen Baty.
He married Katherine Adamson, daughter of William Adamson and Jonet Turing. A marriage contract dated 17th December 1517 survives, between William, Jonet and Katherine on the one part and George Henrison (Henderson) and his mother, Ellen Baty, with consent of her second husband, Alan Stewart, Captain of Dumbarton and Inchgarvie, on the other. They were married by the following February, when they are first mentioned as husband and wife in a sasine.
I am descended from Katherine's brother, Alexander, who was killed at Pinkie in 1547. George's heir, William, was also killed at Pinkie.
Although I have been able to trace the Adamsons back to the 1460s and the Turings directly back to the 14th century, I have not got round to checking the information available on George Henderson other than the many times the Adamsons and he witness sasines for one another.
The information on George will take some studying. There is a confirmation to him and Katherine in the Register of the Great Seal on 1-9-1542 which implies they were both alive then. There is an instrument of renunciation by William Scott of Balwearie to Marion Scott, relict of George Henderson, dated 22-6-1544 , in the National Records of Scotland (GD172?98). Yet there is a confirmation in the Register of the Great Seal on 20-8-1546 of a regrant of George's lands, on his resignation of them, jointly to himself and his wife Mariota (Marion Scott), which implies they are both alive. Some sources say George was killed at Pinkie in 1547. There are inconsistencies that need to be checked.
Hello
Thank you for this. This information at least rules out the 1517 marriage then as that was to your Katherine rather than to Marion.
I'm not quite sure what some of the terms mean but I will go and investigate.
I think based on what you have found out that we have to assume that the marriage of 1846 is the actual one for George and Marion.
Do you have any idea when Katherine died? Also do you have any information on children of George and Katherine?
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Don
Thank you very much. Not sure what half of it means but at least whilst there was no mention of a marriage contract it does mention her as being the spouse of George Henderson on 5th Sept 1546.
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So after some digging and ignoring family trees on Ancestry as they just don't seem to add up, I thik I have a timeline..
1499 or 1502 - Birth, location unsure
Marriage to Alexander Scott, as yet unable to source a date and place but assume before 1519
1519 - daughter, Elizabeth Scott born
1520 - some but not all sources have a son being born, Alexander?
1539 - marriage to George Henderson, 2nd Laird of Fordell....quite a few sources mention this date, heraldic books, etc.
1541 - daughter Janet Henderson born
1547 - daughter Marion Henderson born
1566 - death in Glemsford, Sussex on 20th April
So the marriage to George in 1539 rules out the information that says MQS was at the castle for the wedding of Marion and George as Mary wasn't born then. I do however wonder if it was Mary of Guise (Queen to James V and mother to MQS) who was actually at the castle for the wedding and she was in fact her lady in waiting? Obviously this is all speculation. After all being lady in waiting to MQS has more kudos than being lady in waiting to her mother. This though would make much more sense.
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Instrument of Protest against...and Marion Scott of Balgawe. 4/11/1506
So probably not born 1499-1502.
Instrument on renunciation by William Scott of Balwearie, kt, in favour of Marion Scott, relict of deceased George Henderson (Hendirsone) of Fordell... 22/6/1544
Term relic means widow. George is dead by 22 Jun 1544.
The 1546 entry states this Sasine was completed following on resignation of said George...in other words this transaction was completed after his death.
I know there is no record of a marriage contract hence my suggestion to contact the NRS.
BTW page two gives you some of the children including daughter Marion was obviously born before George died.
Don
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Instrument of Protest against...and Marion Scott of Balgawe. 4/11/1506
So probably not born 1499-1502.
There are lots of Marion Scots. We have a few Marion Scotts in other areas of the family tree and some of those married a Henderson! So this may not have been our Marion.
All accounts I've read put her age at death as around 67
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Which of the children of George Henderson are you descended from? If it is from his first marriage, I can send you a copy of the marriage contract and details of Katherine Adamson's ancestors.
Katherine Adamson's grandmother was the future James IV's nurse in the 1470s. Does that trump a lady in waiting? ;D
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Which of the children of George Henderson are you descended from? If it is from his first marriage, I can send you a copy of the marriage contract and details of Katherine Adamson's ancestors.
Katherine Adamson's grandmother was the future James IV's nurse in the 1470s. Does that trump a lady in waiting? ;D
Yes descended from his first marriage with Katherine, their son Wiliam and then his son James, then his son John.
Oh I think a nurse might just trump a lady in waiting.
Yes please to the marriage contract. We have her parents William and Janet but no further back.
Thank you
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I'll send you a personal message with my email so I can get the information to you.