RootsChat.Com
Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Bellsare78 on Saturday 16 October 21 15:47 BST (UK)
-
Hi I’m after some help tracing back my ancestors to my g grandad and grandma who would have been Henrietta curwen of Whitehaven Cumberland and Frederick Stevens ( possibly London) they married in Canada I believe but came back and settled in the West Yorkshire area? I’ve tried to go back and little
Further but stuck any help or advise would be fantastic thank you x
-
Hi
Could we have some dates please
-
Sorry still new to this she was born 1882 in Whitehaven I believe and died 1956 not sure as to where I’m presuming Yorkshire thank you 😊 x
-
There's a Henrietta Curwen on a passenger list in 1910 heading for Canada from Liverpool.
Birth registration Sep 1882 Whitehaven
Mothers maiden name Johnston
-
Thank you for that xx yes that’s as far as I can go but I can’t see why she went and married my g g grandad there? It’s a total mystery lol x also can’t find her parent details or my g g grandad it’s almost like the line stops 😞 x thank you for looking though x
-
Hi, Henrietta's date of birth 27th June 1882, appears on 1939 war register with Frederick. Henrietta died Upper Agbrigg in 1956. Her death and burial records are available to view on Ancestry.Co.Uk. Frederick died 20th May 1963.
John
-
I've added her birth registration above so if you wish you can apply for a copy of the certificate to confirm parents details.
She could have been a domestic and went out there to work.
Do you know how long they were in Canada?
-
Birth registration Sep 1882 Whitehaven
Mothers maiden name Johnston
Looking for a Curwen/Johnston marriage there is this one
Dec 1872 Whitehaven
Thomas Curwen
Mary Ann Johnston
-
The marriage was in Quebec in 1915.
-
A son born Huddersfield in 1915
STEVENS, WILLIAM FREDERICK ALLEN mmn CURWIN
GRO Reference: 1915 D Quarter in HUDDERSFIELD Volume 09A Page 369
He appears on 1939 war register and died 1977 Huddersfield.
John
-
The 1910 Incoming Passenger List indicates Destination was Montreal. She was a Laundress, and her intended occupation was Domestic.
-
The 1910 Incoming Passenger List indicates Destination was Montreal. She was a Laundress, and her intended occupation was Domestic.
Available to view here, you need to be registered to use the site but it is free of charge
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qzz/
-
Oh my goodness me this is amazing. William was my grandfather but It was Henriettas parents that I’m struggling with? So Millie I will have a look at that link thank you so much 🙏🏻 X
-
The marriage was in Quebec in 1915.
Name: Henrietta Curodeau (image lists "Curwen")
Mother: Mary Ann Curwen
Event Type: Mariage (Marriage)
Marriage Date: 1915
Marriage Place: Quebec, Québec, Canada
Marriage Church: Saint Andrew's Church; Québec
Place of Worship or Institution: Presbyterian Saint Andrew's Church
Religion: Presbyterian
Spouse: Frederick Charles Stevens
Father: Thomas B. Stevens
-
So do you think Frederick was Canadian ? I’m confused lol 😂 x
-
1891 census
Piece: 4305
Folio: 29
ED, Institution or Vessel: 19
john
Wrong ref.
-
So do you think Frederick was Canadian ? I’m confused lol 😂 x
Marriage image indicates his family was from London. Mother's name Anna/Ann.
-
The marriage was in Quebec in 1915.
Name: Henrietta Curodeau (image lists "Curwen")
Mother: Mary Ann Curwen
Event Type: Mariage (Marriage)
Marriage Date: 1915
Marriage Place: Quebec, Québec, Canada
Marriage Church: Saint Andrew's Church; Québec
Place of Worship or Institution: Presbyterian Saint Andrew's Church
Religion: Presbyterian
Spouse: Frederick Charles Stevens
Father: Thomas B. Stevens
The date of the marriage was 17 February 1915.
-
Thank you all that’s given me a little help in the right direction still very confused how someone from Cumberland and someone in London got married in Canada? Very bizarre and then to come back and settle in Yorkshire? Very odd lol x
-
Not sure which one below is your Frederick. Might be the same person.
Canada, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1865-1935
Name: Frederick Stevens
Arrival Age: 21
Birth Year: abt 1884
Departure Port: Liverpool, England
Arrival Date: 18 Aug 1905
Arrival Port: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Vessel: Lake Champlain
The above is a Chair Maker from Yorkshire. Destination: Montreal. Correction: Kearney, Ontario.
Name: Frederick Stevens
Arrival Age: 29
Birth Year: abt 1884
Departure Port: Liverpool, England
Arrival Date: 18 Jul 1913
Arrival Port: Quebec, Canada
Vessel: Empress of Ireland
Destination: Peterboro, Ontario.
Occupation and Intended Occupation: Labourer
According to the Passenger image, he was previously in Peterboro (Canada) in 1906.
-
So it looks like they both met in Canada and married whilst there .. that’s would explain things a little I guess thank you each and everyone of you what a fantastic place this is to be for help x
-
From the details found and included above, this looks to be Henrietta in the censuses:
1891 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4JJT-W2M
1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSVN-VKC
Possible for Henrietta's mother, Mary Ann:
1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSV5-SDH
Monica
-
Thank you again 😊 this is brilliant x
-
The 1915 marriage parish entry gives Frederick's parents as Thomas and Anna from London.
Wondering if this is Frederick with family on the 1891 census www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QQ5W-DW2
A maybe for 1901? www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSNC-B5N
Added: possible for parents in 1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9HH-JNL
Monica
-
You’ve all been amazing is there anyone that can help with Thomas curwen? I feel like I must be missing something as to not being able to find any details? X
-
You could get a copy of the marriage certificate for Thomas & Mary Ann from 1872.
That should have the name of his father/occupation but I also note Mary Ann was down as a widow in 1891 so he must have died between 1881-1891.
-
Thank you Millie xx
-
Thomas is a bit elusive isn't he. We don't know when he was born or where.
Find a grave index Whitehaven cemetery have a burial for Thomas Curwen 22 August 1880 born 1851 but that's a little early death for our needs.
Possibly indexed as Thomas Corrin? Sep 1880 Whitehaven
Do we have Mary Ann in 1881 to rule this one out?
-
I’ve found a Thomas curwen b 1854 to Jonathan and Mary but can’t link anything together ? X
-
No we need some proof of identity first either from his marriage certificate or maybe the birth certificate for Henrietta.
The marriage would be best as would give his age and occupation as well as his fathers name and occupation. Then we can look for him proper.
You would also expect more children to be born between 1872-1882.
-
It looks as though there was a possible sibling
Births Mar 1873
Curwin John Henry MMN Johnston
Whitehaven 10b 629
Death June qtr 1874
Curwen John Henry age 1
Whitehaven 10b 406
Henrietta's birth certificate may not name a father. The entry for her mother would read as Mary A Curwen and give her previous surname ThompsonJohnston that could be where the information on the index came from.
ADDED
Mary Ann is stating she is widowed in 1891, I cannot see her in 1881. I can't see a death for Thomas either.
-
This is all very bizarre :o x I wonder why it’s so hard? Is it usually this difficult? I know that there were a lot of curwens in Cumberland at that time one family were very highly known and wealthy but alas I don’t think this was the curwens that I’m looking for 😂 x
-
It would help if we could find Mary A in 1881. I can't see a suitable Thomas either. Curwen/Curwin is also very common in Lancashire he could have come from anywhere.
This area of the country is not well covered by online records and sadly often the only way is to purchase certificates. The birth one you can get as a PDF but it would cost around £7, the marriage would only be available as a paper copy at around £11.
To establish the fathers of Henrietta and Thomas the marriage would be the better one. The fact that Henrietta only named her mother when she married in Canada does make me think she may not be Thomas's daughter.
I am going to have another look and see what else I can find
-
Oo that’s an interesting theory Rosie re the name on the marriage document hadn’t thought X
-
Ah I didn't realise she only named her mother when she married.
Must admit I did wonder if Thomas was her father but I guess the birth could say it was anyway.
What do you think about the 1880 Thomas death?
Burial at Whitehaven.
Agree finding an 1881 census would be helpful.
Is it usually this difficult? It certainly can be!
-
Here are a couple of possibles for them in 1881;
Transcribed as Cureven but when you look at the original it could most certainly be Curwen Mary might be showing as a servant at the Foresters Arms, Whitehaven. Although she is showing as single her occupation is housewife dom serv. She is 27 and born Moor Row, Cumberland.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-KFM8
There is a married Thomas Curwen born 1847 Barrow, occupation iron ore miner a boarder in Cleator, Whitehaven.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-2LW6
William
-
What do you think about the 1880 Thomas death?
Burial at Whitehaven.
There is a John Flemming with wife Sophia and Curwen step children at 12 Charles Street in 1881. I suspect that Thomas may have been Sophias husband
Marriage Mar qtr 1873
BAMBRICK Sophia
CORRIN Thomas
Whitehaven 10b 833
ADDED There is a marriage in March qtr 1881 for Sophia Curran at Whitehaven RD poss match John Fleming
-
Great thanks Rosie can rule him out then.
-
Not going to lie getting very confused 😂 to be fair that doesn’t take much at all x I appreciate all your help with this lovely people xx
-
Here are a couple of possibles for them in 1881;
Transcribed as Cureven but when you look at the original it could most certainly be Curwen Mary might be showing as a servant at the Foresters Arms, Whitehaven. Although she is showing as single her occupation is housewife dom serv. She is 27 and born Moor Row, Cumberland.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-KFM8
John Henrys burial (1874) is on Findagrave - abode Moor Row
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/215341193/john-henry-curwen
-
Possible death for Henrietta's mother, Mary Ann:
Mary Ann Curwen
Aged 49
1st Qrt 1902
Whitehaven
Ref 10b/451
Monica
-
FIND A GRAVE
Mary Ann Curwen 1853 - 1902
Whitehaven Cemetery Whitehaven, Copeland Borough, Cumbria, England
PLOT Ward 1 - Section S - Grave 115
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/216612456/mary-ann-curwen
Sandra
-
I’ve found a Thomas curwen b 1854 to Jonathan and Mary but can’t link anything together ? X
I think this Thomas married a Jane Simpson in 1878 in Cross-Canonby, Cumberland. Father showing as Jonathan Curwen.
Monica
-
Further to my earlier post re Thomas Curwen in the 1871 census there is, as transcribed, a Thomas Cerwen ( again the original could easily be read as Curwen) living at Moor Roe, Egremont, Whitehaven. He is 23, unmarried, an iron stone miner, a lodger with the Moffat family. His place of birth is given as Ulverston, Lancashire ( like Barrow in the Furness Peninsula). Presumably Moor Roe is the Moor Row quoted in above posts.
This is RG10 Piece 5263 Folio 20 Page 34.
William
-
So am I right in thinking that Henriettas mum Mary Ann Johnston and father Thomas Curwen we’re not married and Thomas was married to someone else? X
-
Added: Was just posting when I saw the 'red' for your post, William! Posting as is which matches with yours.
Just re reading to see what clues we may have found for Thomas Curwen so far.
We had this from William earlier regarding the 1881 census:
Here are a couple of possibles for them in 1881;
Transcribed as Cureven but when you look at the original it could most certainly be Curwen Mary might be showing as a servant at the Foresters Arms, Whitehaven. Although she is showing as single her occupation is housewife dom serv. She is 27 and born Moor Row, Cumberland.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-KFM8
There is a married Thomas Curwen born 1847 Barrow, occupation iron ore miner a boarder in Cleator, Whitehaven.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2WM-2LW6
Rosie posted this earlier re a burial for a possible son, John Henry:
John Henrys burial (1874) is on Findagrave - abode Moor Row
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/215341193/john-henry-curwen
There seems to be a possible strong link to Moor Row from these details.
I found this entry for 1871 for a Thomas Curwen, lodging at Moor Row, Egremont, Whitehaven (I can't link it to an FS entry as FS playing up :-\):
John Moffat 32 iron miner
Ether Moffat 25
...and four children
Thomas Cerwen 23, unmarried, Lodger, iron miner, b. Ulverstone, Lancashire
Now, Ulverstone from 1871 and Barrow (in Furness) from the 1881 entry are pretty close to each other so likely the same Thomas give or take a few miles on his birth place? Same occupation and approx. birth year. Showing as single in 1871 and married and lodging in 1881 (if we are right and it is the same Thomas).
Monica
-
So am I right in thinking that Henriettas mum Mary Ann Johnston and father Thomas Curwen we’re not married and Thomas was married to someone else? X
I don't think that is what was discussed earlier. There is a death in 1880 for a Thomas and it is thought that this Thomas was married to a Sophia who by 1881 had been widowed and remarried John Fleming.
I don't think we can guess at this stage the circustances around Henrietta's birth without checking her birth reg. All we have so far for her early years is the birth entry on the index, her 1891 census entry with her mum and then by 1901 working away from home.
Monica
-
Hi Bellsare
I agree with Monica. We know from the Groindex that Henrietta's mother's maiden name was Johnston and that there is a possible marriage of Thomas Curwen and Mary Ann Johnston. The censuses I have quoted do not challenge this. If it were me I would obtain Henrietta's birth certificate and, assuming that it names the parents as Thomas an Mary Ann, their marriage certificate.
William
-
Just following through on this Thomas.
There is an entry for him in 1891 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4JDZ-3ZM
The George Moffat also boarding with him is one of the Moffat children in the family he lodged with in 1881.
Monica
-
Thank you Monica and William 😊 x I’ll try and get the birth certificate to see what that shows x
-
Just found a newspaper article about the death of Mary Ann Curwen in the Maryport Advertiser of 5 April 1902. It would appear that she sadly died as a result of a street brawl. She appears to have fallen and hit her head.
" Margaret Johnston, sister in law of the deceased, said the latter was 49 years of age, her husband being Thomas Curwen of Moor Row, being, she believed, an iron ore miner".
Interesting wording which suggests that Thomas was still alive.
Earlier quote " John Cole, collier, Charles Street, Whitehaven, said the deceased was his housekeeper."
William
-
Yes that is interesting wording.
Sorry if I've missed it but do we have Mary Ann in 1901?
There's a John Cowle widower coal hewer and 7 children at 5 Charles St in 1901 but no housekeeper.
Big family so he probably needed one.
-
We had her earlier here in 1901...let me just refind it and will post.
Added:
1901 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSV5-SDH
Monica
-
Earlier quote " John Cole, collier, Charles Street, Whitehaven, said the deceased was his housekeeper."
1901 shows her as a housekeeper to a William Castlehow. Looks like she changed employer by the time of her death in 1902.
Monica
-
Thank you Monica I see it.
-
William's reference to the article (great find ;)) actually states that Mary Ann Curwen was a widow by the time of her death in 1902. She also showed as widow on that likely 1901 entry. So possible death for husband Thomas, assuming it is him in 1891, would be 1891-1901 it seems.
Monica
-
It is confusing isn't it. She is definitely shown as a widow in 1891.
Great pity husband and wife are never shown together on any census.
-
Wonder which Thomas Curwen this was?
find a grave site Whitehaven has a TC 27 Apr 1902 born 1851 coal miner house 21
place of death Swingpump Lane.
No forget all that he was married to a Sarah in 1901.
Having said that if you look at the census for that Thomas isn't there another Thomas Curwen further down at no 21? Doesn't make sense to me his entry. Maybe someone could have a look.
-
Just posting this now for Mary Ann Johnston and possible early censuses for her with her family:
1861 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7P9-SP7
1871 I can't find on FS :-\ But see below:
Henry Johnston 65 widower joiner b. Scotland
David Johnston 20 iron miner
Mary A Johnston 17 domestic servant
William Johnston 15 iron miner
Elizabeth Johnston 12
Family living at Moor Row (or Roe?)
Monica
Added: Just thinking... Thomas and Mary Ann, possible first born may have been John Henry and then daughter Henrietta for daughter. Then we possibly have Mary Ann's father showing as Henry BUT these are just guesses without having seen any registrations ::)
-
Wonder which Thomas Curwen this was?
find a grave site Whitehaven has a TC 27 Apr 1902 born 1851 coal miner
place of death Swingpump Lane.
The newspaper article re death of Mary Ann Curwen is dated 5 April 1902.
Monica
-
According to a living relative Henrietta was of an Indian / French Canadian background and was of an ethnic colour ( would make sense as my dad and his father William Stevens and my late uncle were all of darker skin colour ) but I can’t see how if the family weren’t from there ? Most bizarre x
-
If Henrietta's father was not Thomas Curwen then perhaps that is the link.
-
This is a recent picture found of Henrietta and my late uncle I would love to find her origin x
-
Have you ordered her birth certificate to see what it says?
-
Not as yet not sure how to 😂🤦🏼♀️ X
-
This is the information you will need to make an application.
CURWEN HENRIETTA
Mothers maiden name JOHNSTON
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter
WHITEHAVEN
Volume 10B Page 623
Have you discovered the GRO - General Register Office - site?
You have to register but it's free to search birth and death indexes to find who you want and place any orders. Have a look at it first and see how you get on.
-
Just adding a transcription from the Canadian vital records for the marriage here:
Frederick Charles Stevenson of the City of Quebec, a groom (?), a bachelor, aged thirty three years xxx son of Thomas B and Anne Stevenson of London, England and Henrietta Curwen, of the City of Quebec, spinster aged thirty two years and daughter Mary Ann Curwen of Whitehaven, Cumberland County, England. xxxx...hard to read but I think the name of the person who married them...married at the Manse, Quebec on this the seventeenth day of February, one thousand nine hundred and fifteen.
Signatures for them, including those of their witnesses.
Monica
-
Thank you Monica I really really appreciate this x