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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Helina on Thursday 14 October 21 08:34 BST (UK)
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Is it possible for someone to be baptised twice? Frederick James Cooper born on the 8th January 1870, parents James and Emily Cooper was baptised on the 30th May 1870 at Warmley Gloucestershire, no name of church. On the 23rd January 1888 age 18, he appears to have been baptised again at St Barnabas church Warmley, could be same church as in 1870. Parents James and Emily Cooper.
Maybe Frederick was baptised at home the first time?
Any ideas
helina
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Have the same situation in my family but i know its reason. My grandmother baptised as Catholic when she was born, then re-baptised as Orthodox to marry with my grandfather.
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It appears from GENUKI that there was only one church in Warmley in the period.
I did note that the first baptism on family search only recorded the name of Frederick, not Frederick James. Did the first child die I wonder?
Colin
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I have just noticed on the 1881 census that Emily is a widow at Warmley Tower, Siston (Gloucs), Keynsham, Gloucestershire, with 9 children present Frederick is 11. Emily and the last entry on the list below?
Emily Cooper Head Widow Female 42 1839 Staymaker Wick, Gloucestershire
Henry Vacker Father Married Male 78 1803 Painter Winchester, Hampshire
Colin
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Yes Colc, Emily and James had another son called Frederick born 1866, died 1868 so this Frederick can be ruled out.
James Cooper (the father) died in 1878. The 9 children were:
Phoebe Amelia b 1861
Albert Wesley b 1863
Emily Jane b 1864
Frederick 1866-1868
William Henry b 1868
Frederick James b 1870
Alice b 1872
Kate b 1874
Florence b 1876
helina
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There are many threads on RootsChat about the topic of 2 baptisms. You should be able to find some by searching for a title such as "Baptised twice". *
There could be several reasons for a person having 2 baptism ceremonies and these have been discussed on other threads. Note: 2 ceremonies not 2 baptisms.
As Frederick was 18 at the time of the 2nd ceremony:
It may have been in preparation for confirmation;
He may have become interested in religion in his teens;
He may have been influenced by friends, a girl, employer or someone he respected.
*Added. Search for title "baptised twice" on Beginners' board and Common Room found 15 threads.
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Thanks Maiden Stone and Colc
helina
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Is it possible for someone to be baptised twice?
Certainly. A female ancestor of my wife was born in late 1835 in rural Northumberland and baptised locally by an itinerant presbyterian minister in January. Later that year a new parish church opened and she was re-baptised there in December - though I suppose it may have been a 'Received' ceremony.
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My great gran was baptised in Oxford in 1895 as a baby then baptised again in London in 1910 when she lived in a Hackney convent for a time.
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Hi,
In case it helps :)
The children showing in the 1871 census,
Phoebe Amelia
Albert Wesley
Emily Jane
Frederick 1866
William Henry
Frederick 1870
were baptised in the Wesleyan Chapel in Warmley, their place of birth was Bitton, Emily Jane's was Batch.
Then the new girls in the 1881 census were baptised in St. Barnabas, Warmley, their abode was "The Batch".
Alice
Kate
Florence
Fanny (baptism shows Annie)
That's where Frederick James was baptised as an adult in 1888.
Regards,
Daisy
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My great gran was baptised in Oxford in 1895 as a baby then baptised again in London in 1910 when she lived in a Hackney convent for a time.
Perhaps a conditional baptism prior to receiving the sacrament of confirmation. Was she in the convent because she was an orphan or because she couldn't live at home for some reason?
Transcriptions of registers of baptisms, confirmations and first communions at Buckley Hall Boys' Home , Rochdale, Lancashire are on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website. All baptisms were of boys who lived in the institution. Some were baptisms of groups of boys, usually aged 9-12, shortly before they received the sacraments of confirmation and first communion, e.g. 2 groups of boys baptised in March and on 13th April 1889 were confirmed, along with other boys, on 13th April and received first communion on 18th April. Another batch was baptised in September and there were more first communions in September and October.
A note that the baptism was conditional was written on some entries. 4 boys were baptised 10th April 1892, 2 born in Yorkshire, 2 sent by Chorlton Union. 9th Aug. 2 brothers from Preston. Apparently some boys weren't even sure of their age so ascertaining if they'd already been baptised would have been difficult e.g. 2 boys baptised 9th June 1894 "aged about 16"; 2 more May 1895, 1 aged about 12, the other about 16; Oct. 1895 "aged about 9, (sent by the Guardians)". *
* I assume the Poor Law Guardians.
A boy was baptised on his deathbed, a week before what would have been his twelfth birthday. Another boy was baptised when he was gravelly ill but he recovered, (there's a note about his marriage ).
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Rochdale/Rochdale/index.html
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My OH's great grandfather was born and baptised Anglican, in Wales, but before his marriage to an Irish immigrant Roman Catholic woman, he was baptised into the Roman Catholic Faith, in Wigan. almost 20 years between the two events, but - it did happen.
TY
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My great gran was baptised in Oxford in 1895 as a baby then baptised again in London in 1910 when she lived in a Hackney convent for a time.
Perhaps a conditional baptism prior to receiving the sacrament of confirmation. Was she in the convent because she was an orphan or because she couldn't live at home for some reason?
Transcriptions of registers of baptisms, confirmations and first communions at Buckley Hall Boys' Home , Rochdale, Lancashire are on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website. All baptisms were of boys who lived in the institution. Some were baptisms of groups of boys, usually aged 9-12, shortly before they received the sacraments of confirmation and first communion, e.g. 2 groups of boys baptised in March and on 13th April 1889 were confirmed, along with other boys, on 13th April and received first communion on 18th April. Another batch was baptised in September and there were more first communions in September and October.
A note that the baptism was conditional was written on some entries. 4 boys were baptised 10th April 1892, 2 born in Yorkshire, 2 sent by Chorlton Union. 9th Aug. 2 brothers from Preston. Apparently some boys weren't even sure of their age so ascertaining if they'd already been baptised would have been difficult e.g. 2 boys baptised 9th June 1894 "aged about 16"; 2 more May 1895, 1 aged about 12, the other about 16; Oct. 1895 "aged about 9, (sent by the Guardians)". *
* I assume the Poor Law Guardians.
A boy was baptised on his deathbed, a week before what would have been his twelfth birthday. Another boy was baptised when he was gravelly ill but he recovered, (there's a note about his marriage ).
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Rochdale/Rochdale/index.html
I did post about this in the London board earlier this year. This will give you some more info on the story. Her mother died in 1902 when she was 6 back in Oxford. Her first baptism was at the parish church of St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford in Oct 1895, and she was baptised at St John, Vartry road, Stamford Hill, London in March 1910.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=842690.0
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My great gran was baptised in Oxford in 1895 as a baby then baptised again in London in 1910 when she lived in a Hackney convent for a time.
Perhaps a conditional baptism prior to receiving the sacrament of confirmation. Was she in the convent because she was an orphan or because she couldn't live at home for some reason?
I did post about this in the London board earlier this year. This will give you some more info on the story. Her mother died in 1902 when she was 6 back in Oxford. Her first baptism was at the parish church of St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford in Oct 1895, and she was baptised at St John, Vartry road, Stamford Hill, London in March 1910.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=842690.0
Some of the boys at the Rochdale home may have lost a parent or parents by death or separation at an early age like your GGM and there may have been no one available to verify if a child had been baptised when an infant. Added to that, some of them had moved or been moved around districts, counties and even countries, so knowledge of when and where a baptism might have happened would have been sparse or non-existent in some cases.
Annual numbers of baptisms at the Rochdale orphanage were in single figures in the earliest years of the home's existence, a small proportion of numbers of first communions in those years, so I assume they were only those boys whose families, guardians, teachers or parish priests couldn't verify a prior baptism.
Conditional baptisms at the Rochdale home were more numerous in some years.
There are notes with some baptism entries. A few include extracts of letters from a parent, priest or a nun who may have been a teacher or in charge of another orphanage.
Examples:
1919 page 48, entry 239: A boy named Bernard with 2 surnames, 1 in brackets. Note taped to page "says he's five". (I wondered if the 2 surnames meant he was later adopted or if it was just that he was known by either surname.)
6 Dec. 1921 (entry 271), 24 Dec. 1926 (entry 280): Baptisms of 2 brothers. A note attached to 1921 baptism includes extracts of letters from the boy's mother and from a nun. Mother stated that a third brother was already baptised. She also asked to be informed where her son was to receive his first communion.
There are notes at the end of the baptism register after the final chronological entry 28th October 1933. These include letters from priests and a letter from a former inmate (aged 62) who was trying to trace his birth certificate. Page 64, entries 316-319.
Catholics who married in a Catholic church from Easter 1908 were supposed to have information about their marriage added to their baptism entry. The parish priest where they married wrote to the parish where they were baptised. ("Ne temere" decree on marriage 1907) Marriage information has been added for some Buckley Hall boys.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Rochdale/Rochdale/buckleyhal/index.html
None of the above would apply to the ancestor in this thread.
I've just remembered 2 other Lancashire baptism registers, Burnley workhouse and a Catholic church in Burnley. Some babies were baptised in the workhouse soon after birth. Some of them had "follow-up" baptisms at the church weeks or months later; some didn't.
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My OH's great grandfather was born and baptised Anglican, in Wales, but before his marriage to an Irish immigrant Roman Catholic woman, he was baptised into the Roman Catholic Faith, in Wigan. almost 20 years between the two events, but - it did happen.
Ah, that's a bit different - he was transferring to another team ... ;)
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My great gran was baptised in Oxford in 1895 as a baby then baptised again in London in 1910 when she lived in a Hackney convent for a time.
Perhaps a conditional baptism prior to receiving the sacrament of confirmation. Was she in the convent because she was an orphan or because she couldn't live at home for some reason?
I did post about this in the London board earlier this year. This will give you some more info on the story. Her mother died in 1902 when she was 6 back in Oxford. Her first baptism was at the parish church of St Peter Le Bailey, Oxford in Oct 1895, and she was baptised at St John, Vartry road, Stamford Hill, London in March 1910.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=842690.0
Some of the boys at the Rochdale home may have lost a parent or parents by death or separation at an early age like your GGM and there may have been no one available to verify if a child had been baptised when an infant. Added to that, some of them had moved or been moved around districts, counties and even countries, so knowledge of when and where a baptism might have happened would have been sparse or non-existent in some cases.
Annual numbers of baptisms at the Rochdale orphanage were in single figures in the earliest years of the home's existence, a small proportion of numbers of first communions in those years, so I assume they were only those boys whose families, guardians, teachers or parish priests couldn't verify a prior baptism.
Conditional baptisms at the Rochdale home were more numerous in some years.
There are notes with some baptism entries. A few include extracts of letters from a parent, priest or a nun who may have been a teacher or in charge of another orphanage.
Examples:
1919 page 48, entry 239: A boy named Bernard with 2 surnames, 1 in brackets. Note taped to page "says he's five". (I wondered if the 2 surnames meant he was later adopted or if it was just that he was known by either surname.)
6 Dec. 1921 (entry 271), 24 Dec. 1926 (entry 280): Baptisms of 2 brothers. A note attached to 1921 baptism includes extracts of letters from the boy's mother and from a nun. Mother stated that a third brother was already baptised. She also asked to be informed where her son was to receive his first communion.
There are notes at the end of the baptism register after the final chronological entry 28th October 1933. These include letters from priests and a letter from a former inmate (aged 62) who was trying to trace his birth certificate. Page 64, entries 316-319.
Catholics who married in a Catholic church from Easter 1908 were supposed to have information about their marriage added to their baptism entry. The parish priest where they married wrote to the parish where they were baptised. ("Ne temere" decree on marriage 1907) Marriage information has been added for some Buckley Hall boys.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Rochdale/Rochdale/buckleyhal/index.html
None of the above would apply to the ancestor in this thread.
I've just remembered 2 other Lancashire baptism registers, Burnley workhouse and a Catholic church in Burnley. Some babies were baptised in the workhouse soon after birth. Some of them had "follow-up" baptisms at the church weeks or months later; some didn't.
Inbetween 1902 and 1910 I have no record of her movements, so not sure how long she had been living in Hackney but by the 1911 census she was living in Bexhill, Sussex as a servant. Ellen Edgington, born Oxford, Oxfordshire. Her dad was alive in 1910, and he died in 1927. I would think she went to school and left about 1907 if she was born 1895.
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Andrew: As far as we know, he didn't get any transfer fee!
TY