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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Catherine61 on Sunday 10 October 21 22:59 BST (UK)
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Morning,
My ancestor William Kiss (1734-1779) was born and died in Birmingham, Warwickshire. Sketchley's Trade Directory of 1767 lists William Kiss at Swan, Lower Priory, as a 'Publican food/drinks'. Subsequent Birmingham Trade Directories has William: 1770 - 84 Dale End, publican, 1774 - 84 Dale End, publican, 1775, 84 Dale End, publican.
Any reference to the Swan Hotel, states it's location is the corner of High Street and New Street (https://mappingbirmingham.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-swan-hotel-in-pictures.html). Given the reference to 'Swan' in the 1767 Trade Directory, could this be the same hotel or is there another Swan Hotel? Or maybe it's something completely different. As Lower Priory (street) meets Dale End (street), could this 'Swan' referenced in 1767 be the same establishment in the 1767,1770, 1774, 1775 directories?
Any help would be appreciated.
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I have a 1731 map of that part of Birmingham, it clearly shows Lower Priory joining Dale End & Broad St. (bear with me for a moment), a later map in 1841 shows Broad St has moved to where it is today and replaced with the High St. however it shows Lower Priory running into the centre of Dale End.
Although quite clear I guess neither are produced with the accuracy of modern maps. In my opinion I think in the period you are looking at it is quite likely that the Swan was at the corners of the three roads mentioned.
That area changed again in the next century when Corporation St. was cut through.
If you would like copies of the maps mentioned please PM me with your email address, I think they will be hard to follow as attachments here.
Colin
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It's an unusual name and came across -
"The town and country magazine; a Universal repository of knowledge, instruction and entertainment. For the year 1778" - Volume 10, published 1778
BANKRUPTS
William Kiss of Birmingham, button - maker
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Thanks Colin and hanes teulu.
Yes, I also found the 1778 entry for William Kiss at 58 Steelhouse Lane, as Button Maker. I thought this was so odd, given the multiple years as Publican, until I found his father's Will. William Kiss's(1734-1779) father was William Kiss (1701-1762), who also lived and died in Birmingham. In William Snr's Will, he mentions property to be left to his wife Sarah (nee Carter), in Steelhouse Lane. So far I am scant on details of Sarah's death. Potentially, from 1762 - @1778, Sarah lives in the property in Steelhouse Lane, and then son William moves in and takes up button making???
Bankrupt is a new revelation! I wonder if he was bankrupt as a publican or button maker? Maybe life at the Swan got tougher. What else was happening in Birmingham at this time?
In subsequent Trade Directories, I cannot find reference to any Kiss's after 1780 in Birmingham.
Thank you both
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A William KISS is also listed as a button maker in 1777 "Birmingham Trades and Professional Directory"
"Birmingham 120 Years Ago. Being a Reprint of an Old Directory, Published in 1777; to Which Has Been Added a Streets Directory, a Trades Directory, and a Few Notes of Comparison between Birmingham of 1776 and the City of To-Day"
Author Scarse, Charles E.
Publication Date 1896
As hanes teulu says, the bankrupt was "William KISS of Birmingham, button maker" mentioned in Town and Country for the year 1778.
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For interest: John BURNER (Patten ring maker) is at 84 Dale End in 1777 ("The Birmingham Directory") and William KISS (button maker) is at 58 Steelhouse Lane.
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Shrewsbury Chronicle, 4 July 1778
Bankrupts.] .... - William Kifs**, of Birmingham, button - maker, July 21, 22, Aug 8, at Mr Bowlker's, Park Lane, Birmingham.
Manchester Mercury, 22 Aug 1782
BANKRUPTS
DAYS appointed for the payment of DIVIDENDS
Oct 18. William Kifs**, late of Birmingham, in the County of Warwick, Button - maker, Dealer and Chapman; at Guildhall, London
From previous bankrupt dealings I recall that being described as "Chapman" influenced the bankruptcy?
** - the "f" represents the "long s" used at this time.
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From previous bankrupt dealings I recall that being described as "Chapman" influenced the bankruptcy?
That's correct, has to do with the difference between being a bankrupt and an insolvent debtor. :)
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/bankrupts-insolvent-debtors/
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Several newspapers carried the following advertisement in September 1791
"RUNAWAY HUSBANDS
The OVERSEERS of the POOR will reward any person or persons who shall give them such information as may bring to justice the under - named offenders whose families are become chargeable to this town; ....
Birmingham Workhouse
Vestry Room, Sep 16 1791
...........................
William Kifs, chaser and buckle maker, about 5 feet 8 inches high, about 28 years old, slender made, brown hair tied, fresh complexion, two or three scars on his forehead; supposed to be in London.........................."
Any link to "your" William?
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Maddys52 - thanks for the confirmation
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Several newspapers carried the following advertisement in September 1791
"RUNAWAY HUSBANDS
The OVERSEERS of the POOR will reward any person or persons who shall give them such information as may bring to justice the under - named offenders whose families are become chargeable to this town; ....
Birmingham Workhouse
Vestry Room, Sep 16 1791
...........................
William Kifs, chaser and buckle maker, about 5 feet 8 inches high, about 28 years old, slender made, brown hair tied, fresh complexion, two or three scars on his forehead; supposed to be in London.........................."
Any link to "your" William?
This baptism "fits" the above runaway -
William Kiss, bap 27 Dec 1763, place Birmingham, parents William and Mary but I note you have William Snr. marrying a Sarah.
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I think William and Sarah were the parents of William the publican/button maker. ;)
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Thanks Colin for the maps and maddys52 & hanes teulu for extra sleuthing on the Kiss family. It certainly gets confusing when there are multiple William's in the same family. I have found:
- William Kiss (1701-1762) and Susan (nee Carter). His Will notes living in 58 Steelhouse Lane
- their son - William Kiss (1734-1779) and Mary (I have very little info on her). They have 8 children. Multiple Trade Directories as Publican at 84 Dale End (1770,1774,1775) & 1767 at Swan, Lower Priory. The 1777 entry as Button Maker (at Steelhouse Lane) should be this William, as his father is deceased and son is only 14.
- their son - William Kiss (1763-1836) and Mary (nee Hadnot). They are married in Shoreditch, London.
I have found from Chapman's Birmingham Directory, 1800, William Daniel Kiss, 19, Moor street, Birmingham, as solicitor. Should be related, but not sure how.
This last William (1763-1836) could be the runaway, makes him 28 in 1791.
Any ideas?
Thanks
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I have found from Chapman's Birmingham Directory, 1800, William Daniel Kiss, 19, Moor street, Birmingham, as solicitor. Should be related, but not sure how.
William Daniel KISS was baptised 1776 at Kenilworth to Thomas and Sarah KISS (on the parish register it has father as William crossed out and Thomas written above).
He can be found in the 1851 at St Mary, Newington with son William Daniel (c1805, London) and daughters Clementina (45) and Emma (40). "KISS and son" were solicitors in London - lots of mentions in the newspapers often in relation to appearing for bankrupts and insolvents.
Not sure if you can tie your William(s) to Thomas KISS in Kenilworth?
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Also, just found William Daniel KISS (snr) Articles of Clerkship in 1791 which states his father was Thomas KISS, "of Birmingham ... Chaser". (Not sure what a "chaser" was.)
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Also, just found William Daniel KISS (snr) Articles of Clerkship in 1791 which states his father was Thomas KISS, "of Birmingham ... Chaser". (Not sure what a "chaser" was.)
According to this list of old occupations, a chaser was an engraver
https://rmhh.co.uk/occup/c.html
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Thanks Jool, good to learn ! And I should probably bookmark that list, looks very useful. ;)
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William Daniel (snr)'s wife was Clementina:
Baptism of Emma Matilda KISS at St Mary, Newington on 2 Jan 1812 (born 31 Aug 1809) to William Daniel and Clementina KISS.
Modified to add:
Clemntina Benser KISS buried 21 Mar 1840 aged 59 at St Mary, Newington. Her address was Gloucester Buildings, which is where William Daniel KISS and family are in 1841.
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Thanks Maddy52 and Jool - I will also bookmark this resource - very useful!
So William (1734-1779) and Mary, had 8 children, with the eldest Thomas (b. 1754), who married Sarah Heath. My direct descend was the 8th child James (1768-1853) - convict - sentenced to transportation for stealing a hat. (First Kiss in Australia).
Thomas and Sarah had a son, William Daniel Kiss - born Kenilworth 1776 - the solicitor.
So in regard to the 1791 'William Kifs, chaser and buckle maker, about 5 feet 8 inches high, about 28 years old, slender made, brown hair tied, fresh complexion, two or three scars on his forehead; supposed to be in London'...this could be William (1763-1836). He married Mary Hadnot in 1789, Shoreditch, London.
Could he have been on the run for 2yrs? Living with 2 families for a while? Need to find 1st marriage cert to prove this.
Thoughts?
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That's good to know where William Daniel fits in. :)
Need to find 1st marriage cert to prove this.
Do you want the marriage cert of William KISS and Mary HADNOT? It's on Ancestry - 17 Aug 1789 at St Leonard, Shoreditch. It doesn't say where William is from, though it does say Mary is otp, William signs, Mary with "x". Witnesses are Henry CLAYTON ("x") and John BAT???.
There is also a baptism in Birmingham of a Thomas KISS on 17 Jun 1791, son of William and Margaret. So there must be another William KISS, though I can't see any other baptisms or a marriage for this couple. :-\
It seems strange to me that if your William and Mary married in Shoreditch and had their children there, that she would be asking for support from Birmingham Workhouse.
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There's a baptism of Thomas Hadnot Kiss, Holborn, 23 Feb 1791, Holborn, parents William and Mary.
Seems unlikely this would be the family involved with the Birmingham workhouse in Sep 1791.
More likely candidates are the William/Margaret combination with Thomas bap 17 Jun 1791. But who was this William?
Post amended - Benjamin Hadnot Kiss was baptised Holborn 23 Apr 1797.
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FindMyPast burial (transcript)
William Kiss, bur. 2 May 1836, residence St Dunstan in the West, parish St Andrew Holborn. Age at death, 73, puts YoB around 1763.
Cannot spot a William Kiss death/burial that might "fit" the William linked with Margaret and son Thomas.
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Thanks maddys52, I agree:
It seems strange to me that if your William and Mary married in Shoreditch and had their children there, that she would be asking for support from Birmingham Workhouse.
Thanks hanes teulu, I also agree:
Cannot spot a William Kiss death/burial that might "fit" the William linked with Margaret and son Thomas.
A scandalous thought, could be William, had women in 2 towns, both had sons which they called Thomas (both born in 1791), but then William leaves Margaret in Birmingham for Mary in Holborn??? Marriage cert with Mary, states him as bachelor. Maybe he never married Margaret.
Maybe we'll never know. Thanks for your help
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A scandalous thought, could be William, had women in 2 towns, both had sons which they called Thomas (both born in 1791), but then William leaves Margaret in Birmingham for Mary in Holborn??? Marriage cert with Mary, states him as bachelor. Maybe he never married Margaret.
I have been thinking just that. Cannot find a post 1791 marriage/death for a Margaret Kiss. There is an 1806 death for a Thomas Kiss, Birmingham, age not recorded, who might be the Thomas born to William/Margaret.