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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: kob3203 on Friday 08 October 21 03:35 BST (UK)
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I'm specifically wondering how much it is possible to tell simply from his uniform and equipment.
I've done some online research myself, but would like other people's opinions before saying anything else.
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The sort of things I'm wondering include:
Is it possible to tell whether it's the Boer War, WWI, post WWI, or one of the other conflicts around that time period?
Is it possible to tell whether he's cavalry, artillery (driver), mounted infantry, or yeomanry ( I believe, possibly incorrectly, that the yeomanry was the mounted arm of the volunteer force, which became the TA)?
Did the different branches of cavalry, e.g. hussars, lancers, etc, have any distinguishable features in their field uniforms and/or equipment ?
As an aside: Is there any way to confirm that a soldier photographed on foot is from one of the mounted branches.
I know that cap badges are a very good way to identify the regiment to which a soldier belongs, but many regiments have similar cap badges. E.g for this chap I've found around half a dozen mounted regiments whose cap badge could match that in the photo, ignoring the many infantry regiments that match because, well... the chap's sitting on a horse.
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Pembroke Yeomanry cap badge:
https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/ww1-pembroke-yeomanry-regiment-pembrokeshire-welsh-cap-badge.html
Tony
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Not Boer War. It is WW1 era.
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Thought your man could do with a spruce up
Cliff
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Does this match the photo on your other thread which included only the horse's rump?
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Could also be Glamorgan Yeomanry cap badge:
https://www.cultmancollectables.com/military-badges?product_id=11283&limit=25
Tony
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Does this match the photo on your other thread which included only the horse's rump?
Definitely!
Cliff
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Does this match the photo on your other thread which included only the horse's rump?
It does indeed, but I wanted to see how much could be gleaned purely from the uniform and equipment first.
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Does this match the photo on your other thread which included only the horse's rump?
Definitely!
Cliff
I should have held off on posting that other part, shouldn't I ? :D
(For anybody who hasn't spotted the other topic - Unusual, perhaps ethnic/regional clothing in a WWI photo - where was it (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853930.0) )
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The unusual clothing that the middle standing chap is wearing appears to be Serbian (from the other topic), which means the photo was most likely taken during the Salonika Campaign.
So I guess it should be possible to narrow things down to the mounted regiments involved in that campaign, yes ?
But I'm having problems there.
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I think, but I wouldn't swear to it because I didn't record the URL, that I read somewhere over the past few days that there were no regular British cavalry involved in the Salonika Campaign, and that the mounted role was performed exclusively by the yeomanry.
Can anybody confirm that ?
If that's correct then the Pembroke or Glamorgan Yeomanry, as suggested by tonepad, appear to be the most likely.
I also think I read that in the Salonika Campaign some mounted regiments (or smaller units) swapped their horses for bicycles ! I'm sure that wasn't their idea.
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The Pembroke and Glamorgan Yeomanry were posted to Egypt, so not involved in the Salonica Campaign.
Tony
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It appears that the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry also had a similar cap badge - https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/royal-wiltshire-yeomanry-rwy-regiment-cap-badge.html (https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/royal-wiltshire-yeomanry-rwy-regiment-cap-badge.html) but it doesn't look as if they served in the Salonika Campaign.
I found a breakdown of the British Mounted Brigades in the Salonika Campaign here https://salonikacampaignsociety.org.uk/bsf/army-headquarters/mounted-brigades/ (https://salonikacampaignsociety.org.uk/bsf/army-headquarters/mounted-brigades/) and I checked the WWI cap badges of each unit. I've attached a screenshot of the list of units annotated with their cap badges. None of them used the Prince of Wales feathers.
So now I'm a bit stumped.
Does anybody have any other ideas ?
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I've just discovered that some of the Royal Engineers were also mounted and wore the same uniform - e.g https://thebarlow.co.uk/unidentified-soldiers/ (https://thebarlow.co.uk/unidentified-soldiers/) (after looking at loads of photos I can't see any difference between the field uniforms of cavalry, mounted infantry, yeomanry, and artillery/engineers drivers). But once again the cap badges I've found don't appear to match the one in the photo.
I've also realised that the page I looked at from the salonikacampaignsociety.org.uk site was only The BSF > Army Headquarters > Mounted Brigades. But there were also XII Corps (https://salonikacampaignsociety.org.uk/bsf/xii-corps/) (22nd, 26th and 60th Divisions) and XVI Corps (https://salonikacampaignsociety.org.uk/bsf/xvi-corps/) (10th, 27th and 28th divisions). However, whilst there are a few infantry regiments there who had a Prince of Wales feathers cap badge, I don't see any mounted troops.
So I'm still puzzling about this.
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Here's a half-size version of the complete photo, although I don't think there's anything other than the uniforms/clothing and cap badges that will help.
My best guess so far is that the photo was taken during the Salonika Campaign somewhere in the Greece/Macedonia/Serbia/Bulgaria region. This is based solely on the identification of the middle standing chap's clothing as being Serbian.
The cap badge of the mounted chap appears to be the Prince of Wales feathers, but I have so far failed to find any mounted troops involved in the Salonika Campaign who wore such a badge, although there were a few infantry regiments that did. But the chap in question is definitely mounted.
Does anybody spot anything I might have overlooked ?
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Grandfather endured two and a half years in Salonika as a gunner in RH & RFA.
Recommended book ... 'Under the Devil's Eye - Britain's Forgotten Army at Salonika 1915-1918' by Alan Wakefield & Simon Moody, Sutton Pub, 2004.
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The complete photo shows a more typical British landscape than Macedonian (harsh and arid).
There is a typical British hedgerow running through the photo in the middle distance.
The middle standing chap's clothing is not Serbian. He is wearing a British waistcoat with a V-neck, unfastened. He is not wearing a Serbian Hat.
British soldiers with waistcoats attending to horses:
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-army-horses-during-first-world-war
The photo was possibly taken at a summer training camp before WW1 started in Aug 1914:
https://www.porthcawlandthegreatwar.com/1912---1914.html
Notice more soldiers wearing waistcoats.
Tony
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Good point Tonepad.
:) I wonder if the rifle has been identified.... a variety of rifles were used in WWI ....
JM.
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The complete photo shows a more typical British landscape than Macedonian (harsh and arid).
There is a typical British hedgerow running through the photo in the middle distance.
The middle standing chap's clothing is not Serbian. He is wearing a British waistcoat with a V-neck, unfastened. He is not wearing a Serbian Hat.
British soldiers with waistcoats attending to horses:
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-army-horses-during-first-world-war
The photo was possibly taken at a summer training camp before WW1 started in Aug 1914:
https://www.porthcawlandthegreatwar.com/1912---1914.html
Notice more soldiers wearing waistcoats.
Tony
For what it's worth, agree with this 100 %
T
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The chap in the middle with the waistcoat puzzles me. It looks like he is wearing a forage cap, but it is very lightly placed on his head. I tried to isolate him from the background as there is something else behind him. It may not even be a forage cap and he may not have headgear on
Thoughts?
Cliff
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The complete photo shows a more typical British landscape than Macedonian (harsh and arid).
There is a typical British hedgerow running through the photo in the middle distance.
The middle standing chap's clothing is not Serbian. He is wearing a British waistcoat with a V-neck, unfastened. He is not wearing a Serbian Hat.
British soldiers with waistcoats attending to horses:
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-army-horses-during-first-world-war
The photo was possibly taken at a summer training camp before WW1 started in Aug 1914:
https://www.porthcawlandthegreatwar.com/1912---1914.html
Notice more soldiers wearing waistcoats.
Tony
Excellent observations ! It just goes to show how easy it is to get an idea lodged in your head without even realizing.
The original comments about this photo several years ago were that it was probably a training camp in the UK, although the middle standing chap's clothing had a Turkish appearance to it. There was also a query about whether it could be Ceylon.
Without really thinking about it I'd interpreted the field behind them as being a vineyard or a tea plantation. But on looking again without those preconceptions it appears to simply being a ploughed field.
I'm now wondering what the small building on the horizon (near the rifle muzzle in the photo) could be.
And hopefully this photo is large enough for a definitive identification of his rifle, as majm asked.
I've attached the full size photo for anybody who wants to try and enhance bits of it.
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The chap in the middle with the waistcoat puzzles me. It looks like he is wearing a forage cap, but it is very lightly placed on his head. I tried to isolate him from the background as there is something else behind him. It may not even be a forage cap and he may not have headgear on
Thoughts?
Cliff
After looking at it again I would say he's definitely wearing some some of headgear. There's definitely something that's distinctly different from the field and/or the hedge behind him. And I think maybe it is a forage cap, worn at a very jaunty angle. The left side (from his point of view) appears to be in shade, and I think I can make out two buttons ?
I'm still a bit puzzled about the waistcoat. It could very well be a British one as tonepad proposed, but I still see what appears to be some very un-British embroidered decoration on it (his left side) and some sort of frilly shirt.
Can anybody explain those features ? Hopefully I'm just misinterpreting them !
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The chap in the middle with the waistcoat puzzles me. It looks like he is wearing a forage cap, but it is very lightly placed on his head. I tried to isolate him from the background as there is something else behind him. It may not even be a forage cap and he may not have headgear on
Thoughts?
Cliff
That's what I'm thinking now. He has a good head of hair. His features look Irish to me.
British soldiers with waistcoats attending to horses:
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-army-horses-during-first-world-war
Interesting. My grandad's horses would have been on the horse census. There was a railway station less than half-a-mile from their farm so collecting and transporting them would have been quick and convenient if they'd been requisitioned.
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The British Army (except for the Royal Flying Corps) didn't have that sort of field service cap in the WW1 era.
The Šajkača however is the traditional headdress worn by men in the Serbian countryside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ajka%C4%8Da
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Hugely intriguing :)
Ive enhanced the area best I can and it still looks like the "hat" belongs to someone/something behind him on the horse .. no idea as to what. Ive tried to emphasise it with the yellow in the snippet attached
Cliff
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Is that "yellow" and red outline showing the rear of a mule and the man's head, if hatless, is that a mule laden up over his left shoulder. ...
WWI ... the British Empire .... Canafa, New Zealand, India, Australia ... all had Horse Brigades ... at the front, but also as general transport of stores, tents for clearing hospitals, and many other logistics etc.
JM. Edited to make better sense.
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Is that "yellow" and red outline showing the rear of a mule and the man's head, if hatless, is that a mule laden up over his left shoulder. ...
WWI ... the British Empire .... Canafa, New Zealand, India, Australia ... all had Horse Brigades ... at the front, but also as general transport of stores, tents for clearing hospitals, and many other logistics etc.
JM. Edited to make better sense.
Yes the red outlines the horse/mule behind. The yellow is there to suggest something behind the chap's head
Cliff
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A Forage cap is worn on the right-hand side of the head, so I think this man is bare-headed.
The rifle appears to be a Lee-Enfield Mk 3 (hardly any barrel protrusion beyond the woodwork), used during WW1.
Added: 'un-British embroidered decoration on the waistcoat (his left side)' - I think this is just a crease in the photo, it continues down over the horse's flank.
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Lithgow, New South Wales, Australia, Small Arms Factory produced L-E mk 3 from around 1913 and throughout WWI, so too a small arms factory in India. :)
I have asked one of my ancient living rellies who grew up with horses to take a look at the waistcoated chap .... :)
JM, in NSW, Australia .... its ummm .... late .... 2.08 a.m. Tuesday morning.
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A Forage cap is worn on the right-hand side of the head, so I think this man is bare-headed.
The rifle appears to be a Lee-Enfield Mk 3 (hardly any barrel protrusion beyond the woodwork), used during WW1.
Added: 'un-British embroidered decoration on the waistcoat (his left side)' - I think this is just a crease in the photo, it continues down over the horse's flank.
You're spot on about my "embroidered decoration" actually being a crease in the photo ! It's obvious if you look at the photo as a whole, rather than just the three standing chaps (which I failed to do).
Looking at several photos of British WWI servicemen wearing forage caps you seem to be correct, so that now seems unlikely. But a Serbian Šajkača (which ShaunJ mentioned) possibly wouldn't follow this rule ? However, as tonepad pointed out the environment looks more like Britain than the Balkans so the Serbian idea may be a red herring.
It could well be that the central chap is bare-headed and what I mistook for headwear is something on the back of the horse behind him as has been suggested, or something behind that horse. But I don't have any sensible explanation of what that could be.
Does anybody have an explanation for the "frilly shirt" that I see ?
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Waistcoat ... his shirt is loose, undone so its bunched up.
The National Library of Australia has an absolutely fantastic resource, free to search, etc and an excellent search engine. Trove - it's a treasure. There are many categories, the most popular is the newspaper one. There's also Images, Maps etc... and another is just for Diaries, letters etc.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/
So via Trove I offer the following:
https://purl.slwa.wa.gov.au/slwa_b1894454_44 that's to set of photos in an album held at the Western Australia State Library.
I attach a snip from the photo on the cover of that album.
There's waistcoats, over shirts, there's horses, there's Egypt, there's officers, there's clues. There's Australian Imperial Force volunteers with their horses, serving the Empire. Likely other former British Colonies, Dominions and Territories will have similar online resources.
JM
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So from that snip you will notice that under their uniforms there's a shirt and a waistcoat, and they could push their forage cap back and it could even slip to the back left of their heads. Likely similar 'under-wear' could have been available for issue for all the Forces serving the British Empire.
ADD notice the horses are hobbled and they are also secured to the long thick cable/rope along the ground via constraints tie into equi-spaced hooks along that thick rope. My rellie says:
:) There should be a wheelbarrow for each horse.
:) Probably should refer to waistcoat as a VEST.
:) Each horseman was the ONLY person allowed to look after their own horse because the horse had been provided by the enlistee when he volunteered. The Australian soldiers knew their horses would not be allowed to return to Australia - Public Health rules.
:) The background in the OPs photo could be vineyards or ploughed land, but why would the farmers have allowed anyone to plant or plough DOWN the slope ... it causes erosion, better to plant or plough across the slope, retaining the integrity of the land, forming detention basins for rain, etc.
:) Yes to Lee-Enfield Mk 3 rifle.
JM
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The British Army (except for the Royal Flying Corps) didn't have that sort of field service cap in the WW1 era.
The Šajkača however is the traditional headdress worn by men in the Serbian countryside.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ajka%C4%8Da
It would appear that forage (or field service) caps like that were used in (or pre) WWI by Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment for one, and probably many others - see the two 7th June 2014 posts and photos by mark holden on this subject https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/212669-forage-cap/?tab=comments#comment-2101963 (https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/212669-forage-cap/?tab=comments#comment-2101963)
Taken together with majm's photo (two posts back https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7221783#msg7221783 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7221783#msg7221783)) showing an Australian with his cap on the wrong side I now wouldn't rule this out completely.
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Could it be that the central chap is carrying something over his right shoulder, and that my "shirt frills" are another misinterpretation ?
The version on the left is what I thought I saw originally, The version in the centre is unmarked for comparison, and the version on the right is what I now think it might actually be provided we can come with a reasonable identification of what it could be hanging over his shoulder.
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Waistcoat ... his shirt is loose, undone so its bunched up.
The National Library of Australia has an absolutely fantastic resource, free to search, etc and an excellent search engine. Trove - it's a treasure. There are many categories, the most popular is the newspaper one. There's also Images, Maps etc... and another is just for Diaries, letters etc.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/
So via Trove I offer the following:
https://purl.slwa.wa.gov.au/slwa_b1894454_44 that's to set of photos in an album held at the Western Australia State Library.
I attach a snip from the photo on the cover of that album.
There's waistcoats, over shirts, there's horses, there's Egypt, there's officers, there's clues. There's Australian Imperial Force volunteers with their horses, serving the Empire. Likely other former British Colonies, Dominions and Territories will have similar online resources.
JM
The chap third from right with the forage cap and waistcoat (or should I say field service cap and vest) seems to be a very good match clothing-wise, and the chap on the left with his cap on the wrong side (assuming Australians wore them on the right too) indicates that we probably shouldn't rule it out just because of the left/right position.
But if the chap in question is wearing a cap it's at an extremely jaunty angle.
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In Australian English it is known as a Forage Cap, as it was worn when foraging for food for the horses.
Mr Geggle says that it goes way back ... it is not something originating in pre WWI era.... way way back earlier... Wiki says : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forage_cap
My ancient rellie (a retired Archivist) says ... Forage Caps were not peculiar to military, nor to organisations with uniforms. They were worn by anyone foraging, as a headwear protection from low lying branches or cobwebs or brambles or similar, probably back to Neanderthals... They fold flat when not being worn so can tuck into back pockets in military uniforms.
It is possible that your 'shadow' on the vest is simply the vest's lining ... the vest is undone, and can open wide.
Question from my ancient rellie ... Have you looked at and considered the full photo on the front of the album? Here it is again :D https://purl.slwa.wa.gov.au/slwa_b1894454_44
JM
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The soldier who has been doing the strenuous work on the horse and therefore has removed his tunic and we see him in his shirt and vest, actually does not seem to be carrying anything over his right shoulder. I see a horse or a mule behind him.
ADD there's simply deterioration in the photo - age, exposure to light etc. It is simply fragile.
JM
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The soldier who has been doing the strenuous work on the horse and therefore has removed his tunic and we see him in his shirt and vest, actually does not seem to be carrying anything over his right shoulder. I see a horse or a mule behind him.
ADD there's simply deterioration in the photo - age, exposure to light etc. It is simply fragile.
JM
I totally agree that it's a horse's rump behind his right shoulder and a horse's head behind his left, just as cliffkinch said. But that's not what I was referring to - my fault, as my explanation wasn't really very clear.
I'd intended the white outline to indicate the front right side of his vest, the black bits visible within the white outline being the vest itself.
If that was so (and it's a big if) then he's got something hanging in front of his vest, suspended from somewhere near his right collar.
I've outlined it in yellow here - to me it looks like a string of cloths slung over his shoulder, hanging down both in front (which we see) and behind (which we don't). But I have no idea what it could actually be. Perhaps the most likely answer is that it's my imagination ? ::)
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In Australian English it is known as a Forage Cap, as it was worn when foraging for food for the horses.
Mr Geggle says that it goes way back ... it is not something originating in pre WWI era.... way way back earlier... Wiki says : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forage_cap
My ancient rellie (a retired Archivist) says ... Forage Caps were not peculiar to military, nor to organisations with uniforms. They were worn by anyone foraging, as a headwear protection from low lying branches or cobwebs or brambles or similar, probably back to Neanderthals... They fold flat when not being worn so can tuck into back pockets in military uniforms.
It is possible that your 'shadow' on the vest is simply the vest's lining ... the vest is undone, and can open wide.
Question from my ancient rellie ... Have you looked at and considered the full photo on the front of the album? Here it is again :D https://purl.slwa.wa.gov.au/slwa_b1894454_44
JM
Yes, I have, and I'm still wondering.
The environment surprised me as it isn't what I'd expect of Egypt. Although it's rather parched there's some similarity to the photo I posted, but not enough for a definite yes/no. So I think I have to add Egypt to possible locations.
The tents and arrangement of horses seem to match the photo I posted too, but don't seem specific to Egypt or to Australian units, so nothing really there so far.
The clothing of the two chaps on the right of that photo does seem to match those standing in the photo I posted, so I shouldn't assume they're British.
Incidentally, while googling for Australian WWI Light Horse cap badges a Prince Of Wales feathers one came up (the mounted chap in the photo I posted has, I think, a Prince of Wales feathers cap badge) - it was from 4th/19th Prince of Wales Light Horse, but from what I've read they didn't come into being until WWII.
The other thing I noticed was the nosebags - but it isn't one of them over the central chap's shoulder
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All the men in the photo in the album ARE British Subjects. They are also volunteers, no conscription.
In the photo on the cover of the album you will see some of the men have unbuttoned their tunic. Under the tunic you see their vest. There's forage caps at various angles. Further along the line you see the man who has taken off his tunic and notice he has rolled up his shirt sleeves. He has a vest on. And further along there's the chap in his full outfit. Tunic button up.
Light Horse Regiments were a significant part of military planning until Motorised Transport came along. Not just in the Australian Imperial Force, not just in the Armies of the British Empire.
Re your photo: If you focus on the right shoulder of the soldier who has removed his tunic and undone the buttons on his vest, depending on your graphics card in your puter, you may see blurry deterioration of the print or if you have a high quality graphics card you may be able to see the shoulder definition.
So in my opinion, Mr Invidia's graphics card in my OH's puter shows me re your photo: There's actually nothing on that shoulder that gives you any clues about either that soldier or the others in the photo or the location or their regiment. All you can reliably say:
1. British As per rifle issued to soldiers from Great Britain and her Allies including her Dominions, Colonies and her External Territories, WWI.
JM.
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Thanks majm, once again I should have been more precise and said "so I shouldn't assume they're from British units.", which is what I meant. :)
There were soldiers in full uniform and also in vests, shirtsleeves and forage caps in the pictures at the two links tonepad posted in reply #17 (http://), so I was already aware of that. The photo you posted made the forage caps much more obvious and was an excellent hint that I mustn't assume the men in the photo I posted are from British (by which I mean English, Welsh, Scottish, or Irish) units. My observation about the Prince of Wales feathers cap badge was intended to highlight my inaccurate assumption.
Regarding the quality of the image there are really only three factors involved:
1) The quality of the original photo, which was quite damaged. I don't have access to that.
2) The resolution and format at which it was scanned. I didn't scan the photo and didn't see the EXIF data so I can't be sure of the numbers here, but most scanners by default output a JPG (which is a lossy format where you can trade off accuracy/detail against file size) at something like 300dpi and 95% compression.
3) Any further digital processing. I took a screenshot of the photo and saved it as a JPG at75% compression ratio so I've made it a bit worse. That's what I uploaded.
P.S. I've been using GIMP to view this photo, so I can zoom in, adjust levels, etc to bring out detail. I'm 90% certain that what I (mistakenly perhaps) identified as something hanging over his shoulder is not caused by deterioration of the photo or digital processing.
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I think the key to identifying where the photo was taken is in the background. There is a distinctive dome shaped building on the far hill on the right. I also suspect there is a larger domed building in the background on the far left - but it is very faded and hard to make out. Do domed buildings figure in the English landscape?
Maybe the clever people on the photo restore board could do something to bring out the detail in the background.
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I think the key to identifying where the photo was taken is in the background. There is a distinctive dome shaped building on the far hill on the right. I also suspect there is a larger domed building in the background on the far left - but is is very faded and hard to make out. Do domed buildings figure in the English landscape?
Maybe the clever people on the photo restore board could do something to bring out the detail in the background.
Very well spotted, I hadn't even noticed the building on the left.
Since the full size photo I uploaded had an extra level of digital noise added when I saved it as a 75% compression ratio JPG I think I need to go back and check the original first.
In the meantime does anybody have any suggestions about those two buildings on the horizon ?
Edited to add the bits of the photo with buildings
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I am inclined to think the larger domed building looks like Hagia Sophia, except since the photo is so very faded, I am not sure if I can see the high towering minarets that are situated beside it. Anyway the shape of the dome reminds me of architecture of the Ottoman empire.
Has a weapon expert given you a date for that rifle? That might also be helpful to know.
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Meanwhile going back to the mounted chap's cap badge. tonepad suggested Pembroke Yeomanry (reply #2 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220324#msg7220324) or Glamorgan Yeomanry (reply #6 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220505#msg7220505)).
I've attached the bit of the photo with his cap badge at x4 zoom
In addition to the Pembroke and Glamorgan Yeomanries I found four other mounted regiments, one yeomanry and three cavalry, which had the Prince of Wales feathers as their cap badge: The Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry, 10th Royal Hussars, 12th Hussars (Prince of Wales) Royal Lancers, and the 3rd Dragoon Guards. I've attached scaled down images of the six mounted regiment cap badges for comparison.
Edited to add a couple of additional regiments:
Also the Australian Prince Of Wales Light Horse (separate reduced size screenshot attached for comparison) - see reply 47+49
Also Denbighshire Hussars (separate reduced size screenshot attached for comparison) - see reply 51
Bear in mind that the cap badges do occasionally change design, but as far as I can tell these are the versions used in WWI.
Edited to add extra information from tonepad's post51:
- the 12th Royal Lancers cap badge shown here was only used until 1913 and the new badge was very different, so we can rule them out
- the mounted chap's cap badge shows the "Ich Dien" scroll plus a regimental scroll underneath. This rules out the Wiltshire Yeomanry (no regimental scroll) and the Australian Light Horse (boomerang instead of scroll)
I think that a parallel approach to identifying where this photo was taken might be to trace the postings of these seven regiments ?
Edited to add that tonepad pointed out earlier (reply #12 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220816#msg7220816)) that the Pembroke and Glamorgan Yeomanries were posted to Egypt
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Earlier in the thread we learnt about the rifle - Lee Enfield Mark 3. - so no earlier than 1913 on that model of that rifle. They were still in use in WWII (as per one of my uncles). They were manufactured in England, India and at the Small Arms Factory in Lithgow, New South Wales, Australia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2%80%93Enfield
JM
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Meanwhile going back to the mounted chap's cap badge. tonepad suggested Pembroke Yeomanry (reply #2 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220324#msg7220324) or Glamorgan Yeomanry (reply #6 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220505#msg7220505)).
I've attached the bit of the photo with his cap badge at x4 zoom
In addition to the Pembroke and Glamorgan Yeomanries I found four other mounted regiments, one yeomanry and three cavalry, which had the Prince of Wales feathers as their cap badge: The Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry, 10th Royal Hussars, 12th Hussars (Prince of Wales) Royal Lancers, and the 3rd Dragoon Guards.
I've also attached scaled down images of the six mounted regiment cap badges for comparison.
I think that a parallel approach to identifying where this photo was taken might be to trace the postings of these six regiments ?
The Prince of Wales feathers and the Australian 4/19th - their history goes WAY back .... not just WWII. https://www.lighthorse.org.au/4-19th-prince-of-waless-light-horse/
JM
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I am inclined to think the larger domed building looks like Hagia Sophia, except since the photo is so very faded, I am not sure if I can see the high towering minarets that are situated beside it. Anyway the shape of the dome reminds me of architecture of the Ottoman empire.
Has a weapon expert given you a date for that rifle? That might also be helpful to know.
My first reaction was that it could be some sort of grain silo.
But on further studying it I thought I could make out two tall slim towers that reminded me of the minarets of a mosque. Intriguing.
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Meanwhile going back to the mounted chap's cap badge. tonepad suggested Pembroke Yeomanry (reply #2 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220324#msg7220324) or Glamorgan Yeomanry (reply #6 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220505#msg7220505)).
I've attached the bit of the photo with his cap badge at x4 zoom
In addition to the Pembroke and Glamorgan Yeomanries I found four other mounted regiments, one yeomanry and three cavalry, which had the Prince of Wales feathers as their cap badge: The Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry, 10th Royal Hussars, 12th Hussars (Prince of Wales) Royal Lancers, and the 3rd Dragoon Guards.
I've also attached scaled down images of the six mounted regiment cap badges for comparison.
I think that a parallel approach to identifying where this photo was taken might be to trace the postings of these six regiments ?
The Prince of Wales feathers and the Australian 4/19th - their history goes WAY back .... not just WWII. https://www.lighthorse.org.au/4-19th-prince-of-waless-light-horse/
JM
After reminding myself that I shouldn't focus on just English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish regiments that is embarrasing ! :D
In my defence, I'll try to shift the blame to the apparently incorrect mention of WW2 in the title here - https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/australian-prince-of-waless-light-horse-regiment-australia-cap-badge.html (https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/australian-prince-of-waless-light-horse-regiment-australia-cap-badge.html) ;)
Reduced size screenshot attached for reference. Picture and edits also added to reply #45
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;D
Nought to be embarassed about.
The Allies all seem to have had Horse regiments ... Gallipoli, Western Front, Palestine....
JM
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https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/royal-wiltshire-yeomanry-rwy-regiment-cap-badge.html
Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry can be eliminated, no regimental scroll under Ich Dien motto.
https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/ww1-12th-royal-lancers-regiment-cap-badge-2.html
12th Lancers had alternate cap badge, which was used after 1913
https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/australian-prince-of-waless-light-horse-regiment-australia-cap-badge.html
Prince of Wales's Light Horse can be eliminated, wrong shape of badge
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/323815975028
Denbighshire Hussars Yeomanry to be considered
Tony
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Thanks tonepad.
Whittling down the possible regiments based on cap badge rules out the Wiltshire Yeomanry, 12th Royal Lancers, and the Australian Light Horse.
A first google for "wwi postings regiment name" with the remaining regiment names comes up with the following (I've omitted the information on the Yeomanty units that didn't go overseas)
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/pembroke-yeomanry-castlemartin/ (https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/pembroke-yeomanry-castlemartin/)
Only 1/1st Pembroke (Castlemartin) Yeomanry were posted overseas
Pre March 1916 UK (November 1915 : dismounted)
March 1916 : moved to Egypt. On arrival the brigade merged with Welsh Border Mounted Brigade and formed the 4th Dismounted Brigade.
2 February 1917 : merged with 1/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry to form the 24th (Pembroke & Glamorgan Yeomanry) Battalion, the Welsh Regiment and came under orders of 231st Brigade in 74th (Yeomanry ) Division.
Moved to France in May 1918.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/glamorgan-yeomanry/ (https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/glamorgan-yeomanry/)
Only 1/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry were posted overseas
Pre March 1916 UK (November 1915 : dismounted)
March 1916 : moved to Egypt and formed 4th Dismounted Brigade with the Welsh Border Mounted Brigade.
2 February 1917 : merged with 1/1st Pembroke Yeomanry to form the 24th (Pembroke & Glamorgan Yeomanry) Bn, the Welsh Regiment and came under orders of 231st Brigade in 74th (Yeomanry ) Division. Moved to France in May 1918.
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/denbighshire-yeomanry-hussars/ (https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/denbighshire-yeomanry-hussars/)
Only 1/1st Denbighshire Yeomanry (Hussars) were posted overseas
Pre March 1916 UK
March 1916 : moved to Egypt and formed 4th Dismounted Brigade with the South Wales Mounted Brigade.
February 1917 : formed the 24th (Denbighshire Yeomanry) Bn, the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and came under orders of 231st Brigade in 74th (Yeomanry) Division. Moved to France.
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/10th-royal-hussars-prince-wales-own (https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/10th-royal-hussars-prince-wales-own)
10th Royal Hussars
The 10th deployed to the Western Front in September 1914,
remaining there throughout the First World War (1914-18) with 3rd Cavalry Division.
It fought in many battles including Ypres (1914 and 1915), Loos (1915), Arras (1917) and Amiens (1918).
(and from thelonglongtrail (https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/cavalry-regiments/the-hussars/))
10th (Prince of Wales’s Own Royal) Hussars
August 1914 : at Potchefstroom in South Africa. Recalled to England and joined 6th Cavalry Brigade in 3rd Cavalry Division at Ludgershall.
8 October 1914 : landed at Ostende.
20 November 1914 : transferred to 8th Cavalry Brigade in same Division.
12 March 1918 : transferred to 6th Cavalry Brigade in same Division.
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/3rd-dragoon-guards-prince-waless (https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/3rd-dragoon-guards-prince-waless)
3rd Dragoon Guards
The 3rd Dragoon Guards arrived on the Western Front in October 1914.
It remained there for the entire First World War (1914-18),
taking part in many engagements including the first and second battles of Ypres (1914 and 1915), Loos (1915), Arras (1917), Cambrai (1917), St Quentin (1918) and Amiens (1918).
(a lot more detail at thelonglongtrail (https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/cavalry-regiments/the-dragoon-guards/))
So it looks like the UK, Egypt or France.
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Who do you think the mounted soldier might be? Do you have some names in mind?
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Who do you think the mounted soldier might be? Do you have some names in mind?
We have no idea.
The photo belonged to the chap mentioned in Was it common for a man to serve in two different regiments ? (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853931.msg7219977#msg7219977), but my distant relative says it's not him in the photo.
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It's just been pointed out to me that the RGA had mounted troops, drivers, but nobody's suggested them or ruled them out. So could there be an RGA connection ?
And just to reiterate the main question from the first two posts, which hasn't yet addressed,
"I'm specifically wondering how much it is possible to tell [about the mounted chap] simply from his uniform and equipment."
and
"The sort of things I'm wondering include:
Is it possible to tell whether it's the Boer War, WWI, post WWI, or one of the other conflicts around that time period?
Is it possible to tell whether he's cavalry, artillery (driver), mounted infantry, or yeomanry ( I believe, possibly incorrectly, that the yeomanry was the mounted arm of the volunteer force, which became the TA)?"
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The rifle ... Lee-Enfield Mk 3 dates it to WWI. Cannot be earlier than 1913.
JM
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Good point Tonepad.
:) I wonder if the rifle has been identified.... a variety of rifles were used in WWI ....
JM.
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The complete photo shows a more typical British landscape than Macedonian (harsh and arid).
There is a typical British hedgerow running through the photo in the middle distance.
The middle standing chap's clothing is not Serbian. He is wearing a British waistcoat with a V-neck, unfastened. He is not wearing a Serbian Hat.
British soldiers with waistcoats attending to horses:
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/british-army-horses-during-first-world-war
The photo was possibly taken at a summer training camp before WW1 started in Aug 1914:
https://www.porthcawlandthegreatwar.com/1912---1914.html
Notice more soldiers wearing waistcoats.
Tony
For what it's worth, agree with this 100 %
T
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A Forage cap is worn on the right-hand side of the head, so I think this man is bare-headed.
The rifle appears to be a Lee-Enfield Mk 3 (hardly any barrel protrusion beyond the woodwork), used during WW1.
Added: 'un-British embroidered decoration on the waistcoat (his left side)' - I think this is just a crease in the photo, it continues down over the horse's flank.
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Is it possible to tell whether it's the Boer War, WWI, post WWI, or one of the other conflicts around that time period?
I did address that in reply #4
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Looking at the Rifle Holster, the type on the original photo is consistent with the Yeomanry.
Regular cavalry like the Hussars used leather bucket holsters.
https://www.hungerfordvirtualmuseum.co.uk/index.php/10-themes/654-berkshire-yeomanry
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/20th-hussars
Tony
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After looking at many photos of Lee Enfield rifles I've only just realized that the mounted chap has a very short sling on his rifle. It's attached to two points near the front instead of the usual front and rear. Every photo I've seen has either no sling or a long sling attached at front and rear.
Edit: Ah ! I've just noticed that the "mounted tpr offside home 1914" picture on tonepad's Hungerford Museum/Berkshire Yeomanry link (previous post) has a rather similar short sling, the only matching one I've seen. Here's the direct link (https://www.hungerfordvirtualmuseum.co.uk/images/phocagallery/History_Local_BW/Yeomanry/thumbs/phoca_thumb_l_mounted%20tpr%20offside%20home%20autumn%201914.jpg)
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I am inclined to think the larger domed building looks like Hagia Sophia, except since the photo is so very faded, I am not sure if I can see the high towering minarets that are situated beside it. Anyway the shape of the dome reminds me of architecture of the Ottoman empire.
Has a weapon expert given you a date for that rifle? That might also be helpful to know.
While googling Hagia Sophia to find more photos I came across the attached picture from the Wikimedia commons - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mesjid-Aya-Sofia-Salonika.jp (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mesjid-Aya-Sofia-Salonika.jp) of the Hagia Sophia, Thessaloniki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia,_Thessaloniki). There was apparently a fire in 1890 and the dome was damaged, but later restored - not sure when.
Google maps link to location (https://www.google.co.th/maps/place/Cathedral+Church+of+Agia+Sophia+of+Thessalonica/@40.6448443,22.9464078,13.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x14a83907391d6a89:0x29bd6b3ffe046964!8m2!3d40.632817!4d22.9469808?hl=en) - from which I doubt that it would be visible from any army camp, unless the city was far smaller back then with the church on the outskirts. (If you go to google street view and move out of the city then the landsacape is much greener and tree-covered than I expected, with low hills)
The other examples of Byzantine churches converted to mosques all appear to be in Istanbul itself, which I think makes them even less likely.
There were apparently a few Byzantine Eastern Orthodox churches (which is where the domes come from) that were converted to mosques (which is when the minarets were added) when the Ottomans took over, Hagia Sophia in Istanbul being the largest and most well known.
Most intriguing and unexpected, as this could put us back in the Salonika Campaign - if the building is a Byzantine church/mosque. But I have my doubts.
I'm still trying to get a better copy of the photo I posted, since the JPG artefacts are quite bad. I've attached a screenshot from GIMP with the upper half being a crop from the photo I posted and the lower half being the same thing but with the levels stretched, making the 8x8 pixel JPG artefacts more obvious.
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Just came across another interesting photo, third photo down on the right here https://www.theculturalexperience.com/tours/salonika-battlefield-tour/
To me that bears some resmblance to the small building on the horizon near the horseman's rifle muzzle (cropped reduced version attached fror comparison)
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Dove Cote, Llantwit Major, The Vale of Glamorgan, Great Britain
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/379050
Tony
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It definitely looks like a medieval dovecote, of which there are a fair few around the UK - but are you suggesting this specific one ?
I found another photo of it from a different location - https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/13428 (https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/13428). Click 'View Map' (you may need to scroll up first) and select '2nd edition 1899-1908'. Although the fields and slope do seem to be a fairly good match for the photo, the map shows several buildings which would be in the photo.
How about Penally camp, further west along the coast near Tenby - the photo on page 24 of this PDF https://dyfedarchaeology.org.uk/ww1/firstworldwarmilitarisedlandscapes2015.pdf (https://dyfedarchaeology.org.uk/ww1/firstworldwarmilitarisedlandscapes2015.pdf) has a building on the horizon top left that looks quite similar, and the terrain seems to match too.
Edited to add: the building in the Penally photo seems to be a watchtower, which shows up on maps between at least 1892 and 1938 (You can scroll all the way over to Tenby on the maps from the first link in this post). The only other picture I've found so far that might be this watchtower is an 1865 amateur watercolour https://www.watercolourworld.org/painting/tenby-penally-tww0261f9 (https://www.watercolourworld.org/painting/tenby-penally-tww0261f9).
N.B. After looking through the PDF a bit more thoroughly the chaps digging trenches are probably infantry from Penally camp during WWI, when Yeomanry Field was used for trench-digging practice, so no tented Yeomanry camp any more.
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Can't see a tower in either of these photos.
Pembroke/Glamorgan Yeomanry (I assume - the cap badge seems right) at Penally - https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1678781 (https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1678781). The user that uploaded the photo is 'Penally History Group', and they've uploaded many other photos which I need to look through.
Pembroke Yeomanry (it says) at Penally - https://www.jbarchive.co.uk/wl-284---pembroke-yeomanry-at-penally-camp-tenby-wales-64566-p.asp (https://www.jbarchive.co.uk/wl-284---pembroke-yeomanry-at-penally-camp-tenby-wales-64566-p.asp). Some men in vest/waistcoat and shirtsleeves, two wearing forage caps, one with a slouch hat, one with a flat cap. One chap wearing a neckerchief, another drying/cleaning his hands on a cloth. Two clearly in civilian clothes. Looking again the chaps in vests/waistcoats and forage cap/peaked cap are actually in civilian clothes, except for the headgear.
Edited to add: larger version of the second found from Penally History Group https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1679171
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I'm fairly sure that the Byzantine church/mosque is simply damage to and fading of the photo combined with pareidolia. I don't think there's anything on the horizon to the left except fields and hedges and trees and more fields and hedges and trees.
I was persuaded by the chap floating in the air on the far right - white shirt, white trousers, black hair. Do you see him ? Once you do he just won't go away ! :D
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I found a larger version of the photo of the tower in Penally that I mentioned in reply 66 - it's on the front page of this PDF - https://coflein.gov.uk/media/85/397/dat22_012.pdf (https://coflein.gov.uk/media/85/397/dat22_012.pdf)
Edited to add: even larger version of this photo, but with the far left hand side cropped out, from Penally History Group here https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1678701 (https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1678701)
I've attached a small section from the top left of the photo just to show the structure along with part of our photo showing the building on the horizon for comparison.
Note: the text on page 24 of the PDF mentioned in reply 66 says "PENALLY YEOMANRY FIELD CAMP AND PRACTICE TRENCHES PRN 107820 - Yeomanry field was the site of a tented camp for many years prior to the First World War, however photographic evidence [i.e. the photo I found in the PDF] also shows that the site was used during the war to construct practice trenches"
So my best guess now is that the photo I posted shows soldiers from the Pembroke Yeomanry (possibly Glamorgan Yeomanry) at the tented camp in Yeomanry field at Penally some time before, or in the early stages of, WWI.
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Possibly the same building above the reverend's head in the lower (sideways) photo here https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1678771 (https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1678771)
View of tented camp for infantry on Holloway Field (aka Volunteer Field, Poppy Field - and I assume Yeomanry Field prior to WWI) https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1675371 (https://www.peoplescollection.wales/items/1675371). Lots of buildings but no tower, so I assume it's either off to the left or right.
(Note: Comparing the map of the location of Yeomanry Field on p24 of the first PDF to the earlier maps via the view map link mentioned in reply 66 Yeomanry field is near Holloway farm)
I was planning to ask the Penally History Group what they think - their user page https://www.peoplescollection.wales/users/57226 (https://www.peoplescollection.wales/users/57226) links to their website https://penallyhistorygroup.wordpress.com/ (https://penallyhistorygroup.wordpress.com/) which says "Drop us an email to get in touch!" - but gives no email address !
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I've just posted a new topic on the Pembrokeshire board to hopefully get some local knowledge, and with luck a member of the Penally History Group.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854228 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854228)
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An interesting aside.
I've just found a photo of, so the caption says, a mounted South Wales Borderers soldier taken in France in 1915 - https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-private-david-t-jones-of-the-south-wales-borderers-a-mounted-regiment-172580185.html (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-private-david-t-jones-of-the-south-wales-borderers-a-mounted-regiment-172580185.html).
According to https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/swb.htm (https://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/swb.htm) "The 2nd battalion of the SWB also served in the [Boer] war, partially as mounted infantry."
The cap badge of the South Wales Borderers https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/ww1-south-wales-borderers-swb-regiment-cap-badge-21.html (https://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/products/ww1-south-wales-borderers-swb-regiment-cap-badge-21.html) doesn't have the Prince of Wales feathers, so doesn't match our photo. But the person who had the photo had connections to the SWB and RGA.
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Because I've found so many interesting photos on the internet while chasing this up I've opened a Pinterest account and created a few boards to try and capture them all:
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/kob3203/telling-wwi-british-mounted-troops-apart/ (https://www.pinterest.co.uk/kob3203/telling-wwi-british-mounted-troops-apart/)
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/kob3203/wwi-cap-badge-identification/ (https://www.pinterest.co.uk/kob3203/wwi-cap-badge-identification/)
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/kob3203/linked-from-my-topic/ (https://www.pinterest.co.uk/kob3203/linked-from-my-topic/)
I'm finding some aspects of Pinterest infuriating, and I'm still trying to get to grips with it.
I've also learnt a lot while trying to find out more about this photo - e.g. I knew nothing about the Salonika Campaign, or about British WWI uniforms, or training camps, or the yeomanry, etc. For me that's the best thing about this.
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https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/E02665/screen/6209387.JPG
Before Amiens, this village in the Somme valley is here shown (from the south), the day after its capture in a local attack by the 4th, 6th and 11th Australian Infantry Brigades, and attached Americans. General Monash made this operation the opportunity for an experiment in the co-operation of artillery, infantry, tanks, and aeroplanes; and the battle, which was completely successful, was in some respects the model for the subsequent offensive of 8 August. (The streaks of earth are the rims of shell craters or of shallow scars made by the burst of shells with "instantaneous" fuses.)
This is a photo from the free to search website provided by the Australian War Memorial. https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/E02665 and is in the Monash collection https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/P11013307 which is one of some 250 or more collections from WWI https://www.awm.gov.au/webgroups/ANZAC_Connections.
https://www.awm.gov.au/
ADD
Amiens and Monash ... agh .... you may not have gone to school in New South Wales ... The photo is likely taken August 1918 - when Monash devised AND delivered on his plan to end WWI by breaking the Hindenberg Line. https://sjmc.gov.au/the-battle-of-amiens/
JM
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Photos:
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C55084 and
https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C55084?image=2
29 August 1918, Somme.
JM
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majm - those last two posts were perhaps posted to the wrong topic ? (I definitely didn't go to school in New South Wales. I'm English and schools in England were much closer! :) )
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Just found this page http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gregkrenzelok/genealogy/veterinary%20corp%20in%20ww1/royalarmyveterinarycorpsww1.html (http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~gregkrenzelok/genealogy/veterinary%20corp%20in%20ww1/royalarmyveterinarycorpsww1.html) with lots of photos (studio and mounted) of members of the RAVC (Royal Army Veterinary Corps) in a more or less identical uniform. Once again the cap badge seems to be the main identifying feature.
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majm - those last two posts were perhaps posted to the wrong topic ? (I definitely didn't go to school in New South Wales - schools in England were much closer! :) )
No, I posted links to those photos to this thread. Look at those photos, study ... scrutinise ... the scenes displayed, and compare with the background in your photo. Then place those linked photos in their historical context. Perhaps then find quiet time to reflect. Monash knew the Lee-Enfield rifle. And he knew soldiering. And like most chaps born in the 19th century, he knew horses, and he knew that the volunteer army - the AIF - would not be bringing home the horses.
JM.
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Thanks majm. While I wouldn't rule France out I'm now fairly convinced that tonepad was on the right track from the very beginning, suggesting Pembroke (reply 2 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220324#msg7220324)) or Glamorgan (reply 6) (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7220505#msg7220505) Yeomanry in a typically British landscape suggestive of a summer training camp before WW1 started in Aug 1914 (reply 17 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=853969.msg7221430#msg7221430)).
I think Occam's razor points to that answer too.
My personal odds-on favourite (but still not definite) is now the tented Yeomanry camp at Penally (near Tenby, Glamorganshire) before or in the early stages of WWI.